cm@unc.UUCP (Chuck Mosher) (03/23/84)
From: martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) >Where my mother grew up (Libya) a modestly (no American woman dresses >modestly) dressed Muslim women did not have to worry about being raped. >If a woman were being attacked on the street, all the men would grab their >weapons and hack the attacker to pieces. In any case, a woman would spend >almost all her time in the house and usually would go out on the street >accompanied by her father or brothers. >If women are willing to pay the price, rape can easily be eliminated. This has got to be the most offensive item that I have ever read on this network. Are you seriously suggesting as a means of preventing rape that women: 1) Stay in the house almost all the time 2) Only go out accompanied by male relatives 3) Wear black shapeless robes and veils?????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I suppose it is pointless to even reply to someone with a mindset capable of thinking that the above is a "solution" to the problem of rape. Talk about a male-dominated, repressive, inhibitive society! And why should the victims have to "pay the price" (as if they already don't)????????? Unfeeling, mindless, parochial, truly chauvinistic *ssholes like you are a large part of the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go back to Libya - they deserve you. All insults are gloriously mine and have nothing to do with anybody else !decvax!mcnc!unc!cm
ron@brl-vgr.UUCP (03/24/84)
While I don't agree with the original submitter he does have one point where he states that "if a women were raped, everyone would draw their weapons and hack the attacker to pieces." This probably is the number one reason why those Liberians didn't have rape and probably why we do. They wouldn't tolerate rapists, and we do. -Ron
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (03/25/84)
>>Where my mother grew up (Libya) a modestly (no American woman dresses >>modestly) dressed Muslim women did not have to worry about being raped. >>If a woman were being attacked on the street, all the men would grab their >>weapons and hack the attacker to pieces. In any case, a woman would spend >>almost all her time in the house and usually would go out on the street >>accompanied by her father or brothers. > >>If women are willing to pay the price, rape can easily be eliminated. > >This has got to be the most offensive item that I have ever read on this >network. Are you seriously suggesting as a means of preventing rape that >women: > 1) Stay in the house almost all the time > 2) Only go out accompanied by male relatives > 3) Wear black shapeless robes and veils?????????????????????? > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? > >I suppose it is pointless to even reply to someone with a mindset capable >of thinking that the above is a "solution" to the problem of rape. Talk >about a male-dominated, repressive, inhibitive society! And why should >the victims have to "pay the price" (as if they already don't)????????? >Unfeeling, mindless, parochial, truly chauvinistic *ssholes like you are >a large part of the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >Go back to Libya - they deserve you. > > All insults are gloriously mine and > have nothing to do with anybody else > !decvax!mcnc!unc!cm > > Actually, my family left Libya partially because we despised the place (not surprisingly because we are not Muslims). Nevertheless, Muslims have a right to live as they wish in a country which today is 100% Muslim. I have never spoken to a Muslim girl who was brought up in the environment I described because to do so would be forbidden to a male non-Muslim who is not a doctor (my mother has several dear friends who grew up in this environment). But I have read the writings of several Muslim women who grew up in this environment, attended Western Universities, and then returned. They generally felt themselves to be free and considered Western women oppressed partially because of the extreme sexual predatoriness of Western society. Chuck Mosher's reply is an example of extreme cultural chauvinism. By the way, I used to live in New Haven. One Thursday night as I was moving my furnishings from my old apartment to my new apartment and driving the truck through the Hill section, I saw a black man attacking and trying to rape a black women. I had on the seat next to me a genuine scimitar which I used to hang on my wall as a decoration (a Lebanese Maronite friend of my father gave it to me). I stopped the truck, unsheathed the scimitar and sincerely tried to decapitate the rapist. He escaped (wounded). The woman whom I brought to the hospital was grateful. The rapist probably received strong negative conditioning against trying again. Explaining the scimitar to the New Haven police was amusing. I am not trying to impress anyone with my machismo. My father has in fact accused me of being effeminate. But if Kitty Genovese had lived among orientals, she probably would be alive today.
phaedrus@eneevax.UUCP (03/25/84)
I absolutely agree with your opinions. At least this dude was just some
jerk on the net. There once was a judge in Wisconsin with this kind of
attitude. People in power with attitudes like that really scare me.
Again, opinions are my own.
--
From the contorted brain, and the rotted body of THE SOPHIST
ARPA: phaedrus%eneevax%umcp-cs@CSNet-Relay
UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!eneevax!phaedrussdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) (03/26/84)
I hardly think that Chuck Mosher's response to Martillo could be
rightly called "extreme cultural chauvinism." We are, after all,
talking here about modern Western society, NOT Libya. We are looking
for solutions which make sense in our cultural context.
A statement like:
If women are willing to pay the price, rape can easily be
eliminated.
reveals a lot about the preconceptions of the person saying it.
First, it seems to indicate that rape is a response to female provocation;
that if women indeed wore veils and hid their eyes from men, then rape
would vanish. Well, we know that that argument is specious. Second, it
argues that living a sheltered second-class life is an acceptable tradeoff
for women.
I would instead argue that Islamic cultures have a special "esteem" (for
the lack of a more suitable word) for women which dictates the attitudes
and behavior of both sexes in the culture. Islamic women's dress and
roles, and "protection" from rape, are derived directly from these
underlying attitudes. The presence or absence of a veil doesn't CAUSE
respect or disrespect (or rape.) Rather, it is a semiotic cue about the
nature of the woman, and the behavior which one can get away with. Western
women who visit Islamic countries, though they might dress modestly by our
standards, are still subjected to almost continuous public harassment by
some men, who assume that such women are "easy" (or the Islamic
equivalent.) So much for respect for women in general...
In Western societies, there is no similar widespread stigma or
preconceptions about women derived from their clothing or behavior.
Or, at least, there is enormous latitude between the stereotyped
polarities of the virgin and the whore. Therefore, it is equally
inappropriate for Mr. Martillo to propose standards of Islamic behavior
for women in our society--they just don't make sense in our culture.
--
/Steve Dyer
{decvax,linus,ima}!bbncca!sdyer
sdyer@bbncca.ARPAdyer@vaxuum.DEC (Where's the falafel?) (03/26/84)
| Martillo's Rape Cure | I can't believe that somebody would actually suggest this in net.women! Don't you realize that the whole problem with rape is that it effectively puts women at the mercy of men? By suggesting that women stay in unless accompanied by male relatives, you're suggesting that women not act as freely, as assertively, as *human* as men. The ideal that men are better than women, that they are the *real* humans while women are a subspecies, that a woman shouldn't be able to walk around like a man shall; that ideal that man is the master of woman is the underlying cause for rape! I know there are different cultures at work here; that is, there are a different ideal of woman in Libyan culture than there is in Ameri- can culture. In case you aren't aware, it hasn't always been this way. The Woman's Movement has delved deep into this culture's ideals of woman and has found that these ideals are contrary to human nature. Our cul- ture is much improved because of this; and someday, Libya's culture will feel it too. I enjoyed the "alternate solution" (lock all the men up); how does Martillo feel about it? <_Jym_> | Jym Dyer | DEC Documentation Production Software | Nashua, New Hampshire | | ...{allegra|decvax}!decwrl!rhea!vaxuum!dyer |
cm@unc.UUCP (Chuck Mosher) (03/26/84)
This will be my last chance to respond on this topic for ~1 month as our site is being pulled off the net to handle a sudden, acute loading problem. Let me say that my comment about Libya, "male-dominated, repressive, inhibitive society" *was* a culturally chauvinistic statement. However I do feel the same way the Jim Dyer does when he states that our culture has been much improved (I would say tremendously improved) due to the Women's Movement and to all people re-examining roles and behaviors that have been taken for granted for *too* long. We still have a long way to go. It is my hope that ultimately we will have a world society where the rights and privileges of all humans are equal and not based according to sex, race, religion, or any other arbitrary criterion. As far as extreme cultural chauvinism goes, I would say that the statement "no American woman dresses modestly" certainly qualifies. As well as the recommendation of adapting one society's behaviors (which are based on a totally different cultural/religious milieu) to solve another society's problems. Good for you and your scimitar! I also deplore the cases where women (and men!) have been attacked in full view of witnesses where no-one has gone for help (let alone hacked the attacker to pieces). If everyone carried weapons perhaps such things would not happen, but I do not like the idea of a society where such extreme resorts were necessary. I much prefer changing the concept of "women as victim", both by raising women who do not think of themselves as such (the role-playing process starts early and it's crucial) and by enforcing *very* strict punishment for offenders. One other comment - it is very difficult for "all the men to grab their weapons and hack the attacker to pieces" if the rape does not occur in public. Most of them don't. Chuck Mosher !decvax!mcnc!unc!cm
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/01/84)
My statement about the dress habits of American women was inaccurate and incomplete. I should have said: Almost no American women dress modestly according to Islamic standards. I should point out traditional Islamic dress for both men and women is shapeless and covers almost the whole body. Considering people who dress this way sex objects is difficult.
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/01/84)
>| Martillo's Rape Cure | > > I can't believe that somebody would actually suggest this in >net.women! Don't you realize that the whole problem with rape is that >it effectively puts women at the mercy of men? By suggesting that >women stay in unless accompanied by male relatives, you're suggesting >that women not act as freely, as assertively, as *human* as men. > The ideal that men are better than women, that they are the >*real* humans while women are a subspecies, that a woman shouldn't be >able to walk around like a man shall; that ideal that man is the master >of woman is the underlying cause for rape! > I know there are different cultures at work here; that is, there >are a different ideal of woman in Libyan culture than there is in Ameri- >can culture. In case you aren't aware, it hasn't always been this way. >The Woman's Movement has delved deep into this culture's ideals of woman >and has found that these ideals are contrary to human nature. Our cul- >ture is much improved because of this; and someday, Libya's culture will >feel it too. > > I enjoyed the "alternate solution" (lock all the men up); how >does Martillo feel about it? Lawless men rape women because they are horny and think they can get away with it. Obviously, a man who is willing to break a major law will break a minor law like curfew. Goldah Me'ir was never a mental giant. A lot of the women's movement is intellectually dishonest. Probably, boys and girls can be raised in a gender neutral fashion. However, all the evidence I have read could be equally well interpreted that male and female behavior is naturally different but if a parent is willing to work hard enough the child can be conditioned to unnatural gender-neutral behavior. Occam's razor favors this hypothesis. In any case women's movements never last more than one generation because the true believers have too few children. Also, as the USA becomes increasingly Hispanic, the maintenance of feminist ideals will become difficult.
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/01/84)
> This will be my last chance to respond on this topic for ~1 month >as our site is being pulled off the net to handle a sudden, acute loading >problem. Let me say that my comment about Libya, "male-dominated, repressive, >inhibitive society" *was* a culturally chauvinistic statement. However I do >feel the same way the Jim Dyer does when he states that our culture has been >much improved (I would say tremendously improved) due to the Women's Movement >and to all people re-examining roles and behaviors that have been taken for >granted for *too* long. We still have a long way to go. It is my hope that >ultimately we will have a world society where the rights and privileges of >all humans are equal and not based according to sex, race, religion, or any >other arbitrary criterion. This last statement is typical Western exterminationist rhetoric. I come from a culture which emphasizes duties and responsibilities above rights and privileges. Don't we have a right to exist in the future? The writer seems to advocate world cultural homogeneity, but cultural diversity is one of the nicer characteristics of this planet. > As far as extreme cultural chauvinism goes, I would say that the >statement "no American woman dresses modestly" certainly qualifies. I probably should have said: Almost no American woman dresses modestly by Islamic criteria. By the way in Islamic societies, both men and women wear shapeless clothing which covers almost all the body. This dress prevents either men or women from being considered sex objects. Many Islamic Jurists have explicitly stated that avoiding all sexual queues is the purpose of Islamic dress. > As well >as the recommendation of adapting one society's behaviors (which are based on >a totally different cultural/religious milieu) to solve another society's >problems. Despite all the nasty comments, I suspect there is far less rape in Libya than in the USA (so much for the glory of American culture). Americans simply commit a disproportionate number of rapes. In 1966, I lived in Salzburg in Austria (population ~110,000). I remember talking with a Salzbuergerin about the four rapes which occurred that year. She held Amerikanische Beeinfluessung (American influence) responsible. > Good for you and your scimitar! I also deplore the cases where women >(and men!) have been attacked in full view of witnesses where no-one has gone >for help (let alone hacked the attacker to pieces). If everyone carried weapons >perhaps such things would not happen, but I do not like the idea of a society >where such extreme resorts were necessary. I much prefer changing the concept >of "women as victim", both by raising women who do not think of themselves as >such (the role-playing process starts early and it's crucial) and by enforcing >*very* strict punishment for offenders. The rapist's desire to victimize is more important than the woman's self image. > One other comment - it is very >difficult for "all the men to grab their weapons and hack the attacker to >pieces" if the rape does not occur in public. Most of them don't. I saw an article which detested my opinions and stated the exact opposite. For all of you who do not read Arabic and who are woefully ignorant of Islamic society, the big issue which educated Muslim women are addressing is female circumcision which is the removal or mutilation of the clitoris. The issues which American feminists discuss seem quite trivial by comparison.
saquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (04/01/84)
From what I understand of Islamic law, a rape can be legally
recognised as a rape only if there were four witnesses to
the act. This would seem to eliminate the majority of rapes
wouldn't it? It might account for the reason why there are
so few rapes in islamic countries.
From what I understand of islamic law again, a raped woman
who cannot prove that she has been raped might be punished
for "fornication" (or islamic equivalent) if evidence
against her is found, such as the presence of a child. Of
course the same law applies to men, except that in their
case "evidence" is much harder to find.
I learned all this from a newspaper clipping of a recent
rape cae in Pakistan where the "alleged" victim was raped
by two men relatives of her. Her case was dismissed in
islamic court due to unsufficient lack of evidence (they
didn't have a party), but when she bore a child out of
wedlock a few months later as a result of those rapes,
she was convicted of "improper behavior" (I am not sure
what the charge is exactly since I got the terminology
from arab to english via swedish which I don't even know)
and sentenced to prison. Her case was appealed by her
father and she was finally freed, but NOTHING happened
to her rapists.
Under these circumstances, I don't believe many women
would be tempted to report any rapes that might happen
if it means that not only her rapists will go free, but
there is a chance that she might be imprisonned too.
It would be sheer stupidity to report rape under these
circumstances.
Sophie Quigley
...!{decvax,allegra}!watmath!saquigleyrobison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (04/04/84)
>>Does this get back to that "implicit contract" business recently discussed >>in net.women? It seems like a tricky situation to me. For example, how >>important is it that this man is today walking around unknowingly the >>father of a (rather cute) baby girl? Do you think this man was >>taken advantage of or did he simply waive his "rights" when he agreed >>to the one-night stand w/o ensuring protection. The mother would be considerate of the baby if she informed the man and kept in touch with him. Someday the child may need a transplant or organic donation from a close relative other than the mother. It could be very hard to both find and persuade the father at that time. - Toby Robison allegra!eosp1!robison decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison princeton!eosp1!robison
jbf@ccieng5.UUCP (Jens Bernhard Fiederer) (04/05/84)
If a woman exposes her eyes, and even a part of her nose, she can certainly be viewed as a sex object. Some women's eyes are lovelier than others.... Azhrarn -- Reachable as ....allegra![rayssd,rlgvax]!ccieng5!jbf
martillo@ihuxu.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/05/84)
This debate has twisted and turned long enough. My original article was a reply to Brownmiller's contention that men oppress women through rape. I contend the oppression is probably an unconcious side-effect and in fact men can oppress women in a society where rape is almost impossible. Despite all the net doubters there is less rape in Islamic society. Women can either be raped by strangers or non-strangers. In traditional Islamic society women are always guarded by their male relatives. If a stranger simply tries to talk to a woman, he runs the risk of severe bodily harm from her relatives. If a male relative wants to rape a woman, he cannot because the Islamic family is an extended hamula type family. There is no privacy. Family member rape really only becomes possible in nuclear and near-nuclear family. All the ideological debate on rape is really peripheral. The questions are: How is rape to be discouraged? How is the accused rapist to be tried? How is the convicted rapist to be punished? I am willing to stop flaming on this topic if everyone else is. I am only posting this article to net.women.
slag@charm.UUCP (Peter Rosenthal) (04/05/84)
for the newsbug I think that to say it would be "considerate" of the baby is a very onesided, and anti-father statement. In the first place, just because the woman carried the child through pregnancy does not give her a priori, uncontestable rights to raise the child. In my mind, equality of men and women should require the woman to inform the man that he is a father. In addition, its also possible that at some distant point in time, the father might need an organ transplant or transfusion that only his child might be able to give.
liberte@uiucdcs.UUCP (04/27/84)
#R:decwrl:-648500:uiucdcs:31600067:000:525
uiucdcs!liberte Apr 13 23:46:00 1984
<flame retardants might make good bug repellants>
A point in defense of martillo: He didnt actually say that we in
America *should* do as the Islamic culture has done. He did say
that if women [and men, I might add] want to pay the price, [his words]
then rape can be eliminated.
No one has doubted that there is little rape in Islam. But I do doubt
that even trying to impose Islamic culture on America would ever work.
Daniel LaLiberte, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
{A little moderation goes a long way}