alan@allegra.UUCP (Alan S. Driscoll) (07/02/84)
> Alan's comments about Trish certainly extrapolate on the content of > one or two articles. Seems to me that he's spouting some typical > stereotypes of lesbians under cover of analyzing Trish based on very > little information. > Lori Fuller First Trish posted her bigotry to the net. Then I was attacked for objecting to it. Now I'm accused of being a bigot! I find it difficult to respond calmly to such crap, but I'll try... (1) Trish said, "I think most straight men are your egotistical, chauvenist, insensitive, macho assholes." How much extrapolating do you have to do? She has a problem! If you disagree, think about some other statments of the form: Most <whatever> are <derogatory comment>. How do you react to these statements? What if you are a member of <whatever>? (2) I was not spouting "typical stereotypes", since I don't think that Trish is a typical lesbian. There are good and bad reasons for making just about any choice you can make. I'm objecting to Trish's reason, not her choice. There are lots of people who make the same choice for better reasons, and I emphatically support them. (If you've been following this group, you should know that by now.) (3) I'm getting tired of the double standard. If a man made this sort of remark about all woman, I suspect the same people who are defending Trish would be jumping all over him. I insist that we should *consistently* reject *all* such bigotry. -- Alan S. Driscoll AT&T Bell Laboratories
lmf@drutx.UUCP (FullerL) (07/03/84)
<> Alan, I agree about bigotry. I was really objecting to your analyzing Trish on the basis of a couple articles and I said the wrong thing, sorry. I read Trish's article in the light of the bigotry she was responding to, so it didn't seem offensive to me. I'm also not a straight man so I didn't feel attacked. You are correct that when that same type of remark is directed at a group I am a memeber of I am offended. There have been many of those. Lori Fuller
woods@hao.UUCP (Greg "Bucket" Woods) (07/05/84)
I just want you to know, Alan, that I agree with you 1000%. There is no
valid defense for bigotry. It seems that it's considered OK for minorities
to say bigoted things about whites and/or males, but not the other way
around. I don't like being called a macho asshole by someone who doesn't
even know me, just because I happen to be a white male. Assuming that because
someone is a member of group X, they must exhibit quality Y is the most
basic form of prejudice. The fact that Trish is a lesbian has *nothing* to do
with this issue. The fact that it is a member of a "minority" group being
bigoted against the "majority", doesn't justify it. It is still bigotry and
it still stinks. And it isn't necessary, either. I have known some lesbians
who weren't bigots. I do *not* believe thay are all man-haters. If I did,
then *I* would be guilty of bigotry.
This whole thing has been clouded over with the (important, but irrelevant)
issues of gay rights and women's rights. But they are just smokescreens. If
Lori, Sophie etc. cannot see that this is a simple case of bigotry, then you
aren't reading what we (Alan, Keith, myself, etc.) are saying. We are not
objecting to someone being a lesbian, we are objecting to this "generic" hate
of "most" men, based on a *very* small sample of the total population. It's
time we got rid of this double standard.
--Greg
--
{ucbvax!hplabs | allegra!nbires | decvax!stcvax | harpo!seismo | ihnp4!stcvax}
!hao!woods
"Cherish well your thoughts, keep a tight grip on your booze
'Cause thinkin' and drinkin' are all I have today"consult@uwmacc.UUCP (07/06/84)
...boy, I really hate to jump in the middle of this...but,
once more into the breach dear friends...
I have to agree with Alan. Bigotry is a very strong word, and people
who are bigoted never (at least in my experience) have been able to
back up their "rational" with concrete reasons for the way they feel.
Because Alan does not agree with Trish's statements about men - statements
to which I take offense to - doesn't mean that Alan's a bigot.
If we are to tag the epitath "bigot" on to anyone, it would have to
be Trish by definition of the word. Trish made a blanket comment
to a specific "special interest group" (um, men) based on bad
experiences she's had...
...why did I stick this note in here? Because...just because.
Rob DeMillo, MACC
Adric: "...I don't know what this thing does,
but it is pointing in your direction..."mjs@utastro.UUCP (Mike Scholtes) (07/07/84)
One last definitive blast at everyone (duck, innocent bystanders! You're going to get scorched!!): Trish expressed a perfectly reasonable opinion about homosexuality in regards to her own preference. No one can find fault with her sexual preference--what it stems from and whatever reasons she has for it are her own business. So LAY OFF, homophobes! However, her one BIG error was in labeling "most men" as "macho, chauvinistic, insensitive assholes." There is no call for this kind of prejudice. Simply because it hasn't been expressed as often as racial prejudice, it has not been recognized by several women (and men) in this group as the vile, corrupting hatred that the phrase implies. Whether she was joking or not is irrelevant. People who use this net should be responsible for 1) making sure that they express themselves clearly and are not misinterpreted; and 2) refraining from making generalized, insulting comments like the one quoted above. We all agree that that is what she said, so let's have no more quibbles on that point. In or out of context, it's a contemptible phrase, and I sincerely doubt that ANY context could have saved it. As to those who "don't blame" Trish because she was only reacting to the attacks on homosexuality, or because it's about time women got a little of their own back: shame on you. You should know better than that. Two wrongs don't make a right. Again, there's no excuse for blanket prejudice, no matter what the provocation is. Robert, stop this rabid name-calling. Alan consistently made it clear that he was objecting to Trish's clearly-expressed attitude, not to Trish. If you must continue to drag this flame through the mud, stick to the arguments he presents, and for crying out loud, ANSWER THEM with some logic. (And if you'll read this paragraph very carefully, note that I, too, am criticizing only your actions.) By logic I mean facts. Direct quotes work wonders to lend your rhetoric some credence. And most important of all to everyone concerned: STOP this battle of the sexes. You have allowed this issue to degenerate into woman vs. man, straight vs. gay. I don't care who started it; let's stop it now. Ideally, there should be no sex-linked characteristics showing on this communications medium; there should be the wonderful opportunity to talk things over as PEOPLE. We use the same words, folks; we share the same thoughts, wants and needs. And just to show that appearances ARE deceiving, I will put my name to this: Wendy P. Nather (pooh)
chabot@amber.DEC (Lisa Chabot) (07/09/84)
Greg Woods said: > It seems that it's considered OK for minorities to say bigoted things about > whites and/or males, but not the other way around. Good grief! Who said this. This resembles the discussion in net.women about the hypothetical, unjust, violent attacks :-) on biological determinists. If I turn on the tv I see lots of bigoted things being said about everybody, and most of the sayers (not just the actors, but the writers, producers, studio whatevers) are adult white heterosexual males. I don't even take the ones that refer to some group to which I belong to refer specifically, personally to me. > ...We are not objecting to someone being a lesbian, we are objecting to this > "generic" hate of "most" men, based on a *very* small sample of the total > population. It's time we got rid of this double standard. But what is being objected to here? ONE person's opinions about men (and in some other's letters, the fact that whole bunch of women didn't leap onto the bandwagon to defend men's feelings). Lissen, honeys, ya gotsta take care o yo own feelins yoseff. It's somethin some a us learnt just by bein womens or by bein jist plain grownups. And when you learn this, there'll be less of a double standard. L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA 01752
saquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (07/10/84)
> I just want you to know, Alan, that I agree with you 1000%. There is no >valid defense for bigotry. It seems that it's considered OK for minorities >to say bigoted things about whites and/or males, but not the other way >around. I don't like being called a macho asshole by someone who doesn't >even know me, just because I happen to be a white male. Assuming that because >someone is a member of group X, they must exhibit quality Y is the most >basic form of prejudice. The fact that Trish is a lesbian has *nothing* to do >with this issue. The fact that it is a member of a "minority" group being >bigoted against the "majority", doesn't justify it. It is still bigotry and >it still stinks. And it isn't necessary, either. I have known some lesbians >who weren't bigots. I do *not* believe thay are all man-haters. If I did, >then *I* would be guilty of bigotry. > This whole thing has been clouded over with the (important, but irrelevant) >issues of gay rights and women's rights. But they are just smokescreens. If >Lori, Sophie etc. cannot see that this is a simple case of bigotry, then you >aren't reading what we (Alan, Keith, myself, etc.) are saying. We are not >objecting to someone being a lesbian, we are objecting to this "generic" hate >of "most" men, based on a *very* small sample of the total population. It's >time we got rid of this double standard. > >--Greg Wait a minute here! either you have not been reading what I said greg or you are mistaking me for somebody else. I have never defended Trish's bigotry or her right to express bigoted opinions, simply because I believe that her statements are bigoted and innapropriate in a public forum like this one. I don't approve of "reverse" bigotry more than you do and I agree also 100% (that's enough) with what you said.. HOWEVER, what I do defend is her right to have her opinions and her own perception of the world. I was objecting to Alan's labeling of her as an "unhappy and not well-adjusted" person on the basis of her statements against men. I think her statements were clearly bigoted, but that anybody who would want to attack them should attack them or Trish for her bigotry, but not attack her for other things such as her choice of ways to deal with her perception of the world (by being a lesbian). I think Alan's personal attack of Trish was completely uncalled for as there were clearly other ways to deal with her bigotry which did not involve attacking her lifestyle. Now, let's see if YOU understand my position..... Sophie Quigley ...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax}!watmath!saquigley
edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (07/15/84)
Sophie's right: I don't think there is enough evidence to say that Trish is not ``well-adjusted''. She may well be quite cordial in her day-to-day interactions with men (even though she might think to herself they are assholes), and simply choose to look elsewhere for romance. Though I'd hardly call bigotry a sign of being well-adjusted, Trish never said that she behaves in a prejudicial manner except in looking for SO's (don't we all!). And, at least for me, it is behavior that makes a bigot, not the dark recesses of her or his mind. Forced to state the ``reasons'' for our sexual preferences, I think we'd all come up with something pretty silly. It seems that in the discussions here the answer ``because I feel that way'' just isn't good enough. Well, it is the *only* answer I can think of that isn't somehow contrived. Consider how defensive you'd become after constantly having your sexual preference questioned. Perhaps Trish felt that prefering women ``because men are unacceptable'' was more of a ``reason'' than ``just because I feel that way''. It seems only human to search for an answer such as the former, given that the latter is not accepted. Minorities of all kinds are often pressured into extreme positions by such unaccepting questioning. As for all the comments on bigotry, I, too, agree 100%. It is just that I see no way to brand Trish either a bigot or a maladjusted person on the basis of *ONE* posting. -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall