millines@fortune.UUCP (Trish Millines) (07/12/84)
O.K., let's get this shit straight. You're all fighting with each other
over one f______ article that I wrote. Everybody is assuming what I meant and
telling me I have a problem, and I'm unhappy.
This is what I'm all about:
1. I am very happy being gay. period.
2. I have men friends, but I wouldn't give them the time of day on a
romantic basis.
3. My dislike of men is not only from experience, but observation, and
experiences of my straight and gay female friends.
4. I have always been attracted to women, but like many gay folks, I tried
be straight and "normal" because I was brought up to believe that a good woman keeps a man happy. Of course I think that's bullshit!!!
5. I got tired of playing straight and being disgusted with male dates.
6. My opinion of men will never change, because society won't let men
change. Think about it!!!
7. I think that men could be sensitive and caring, but that's uncool for
them, because they think they have to be tough. Think about that too!!
8. I am not a bigot nor a man-hater. I don't hate anyone, but I do dislike some folks.
9. I have a variety of friends; gay, straight, male, & female.
10. I spend time with all my friends - not just the gay ones!
Now if any of you in net-land have anything to say to me, or any questions to
ask about me - then confront me (even if it's in net.singles or net.women).
Don't be assuming, and trying to be psychiatrists, 'cause you're definitely not
qualified!
As a final opinion of men, I'd like to say that until the day the average
everyday man:
1. Dates a woman because he really likes her instead of wanting to get
into her pants.
2. Treats a woman with respect.
3. Realizes that just because he's pleased (sexually), doesn't mean that
his partner is pleased (and does something about it).
4. Stops talking about his SO around his friends like she's a burden.
5. Decides that macho is not the only feelings he can have.
6. Starts admitting to his friends that he is sensitive and stops acting
like he's so tough.
7. Stops talking about "losing his freedom".
8. Stops thinking that he has the right to have an affair, because that's
part of being a man. (by the way, any woman who believes that shit and
puts up with it is STUPID. period)
9. Stops thinking that he has to have the prettiest woman in the place,
even though he looks like a total slob.
10. Doesn't parade his pretty SO around like she's an object.
11. Can admit that being sensitive, warm and caring is just part of human
nature, and not a part of being feminine only.
12. Will stop saying that women are hard to understand and fickle.
13. Will stop thinking that a woman owes him just because he spent alot
of money on a date.
14. Will stop saying that a woman is a "tease" just because he can't con-
trol his glands.
Women will have a hell of a hard time being happy, and they will probably have
to settle for less and deal with it from there.
By the way, I'm not saying that all women are wonderful and fault-free either.
However, I do believe that the majority of the women are o.k. and have had
enough of this garbage from men....zarth@drutx.UUCP (07/13/84)
First off, I would like to say that I have just recently joined the net so that I have not been influenced by the all the articles surrounding your last one. Secondly, I would like to say that most of the things you said you would like to see in men before the were "worthwhile" in you opinion, I feel I am. Please don't get the impression that I would ever like to know you as I resent most, if not all, of the slandered, if not down right rude, comments you made in your first miriad of points to us all. You are obviously a person who judges a book by its cover and people by their particular sex. I am a man and I will be the first to admit that some men are as you described them in you very opinionated article but, give the rest of us a break. Just because you have had some bad experiences with men don't write us all off and certianly don't blame men in general for you turning to the feminine sex for companionship. Choosing a female for your companion was your own choice. I am tired off hearing of how women think they have it so tough. What about men! We have to live up to you unfair standards too!!! Well I think I have said enough. I apologies to any of those that I may have offended and wish to point out that this is MY opinion. I am not trying to speak for the whole of the male sex. I posted this instead of mailing it to her so that I could find out if any other males out there felt the way I do. I am tired of being stereotyped because of what bad experiences women have had with a few men. Thank you all for letting me speak my piece, Dave Covart
tron@fluke.UUCP (Peter F. Barbee) (07/14/84)
I guess I'd like to get my 3 cents in now that I know more of Trish's thoughts.
I'll respond to some of the points that Trish made, my comments are below her
numbered points. I would like to say two things first though. One, I can't
help but think Trish, that some of your opinions arise from the fact that men
are simply not your cup of tea, they have been unable to give you the
satisfaction that you need, but that this is not necessarily their fault (not
yours either), just a fact. Second, as I read your criteria for a better man
I'm sure I know men who fit (or mostly fit) the bill. I like to think I'm
included in the group.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Dates a woman because he really likes her instead of wanting to get
into her pants.
Most of us do, or are finding out if we really like her. I can go out
"prowling" (monstering is word we use) if I'm just looking for pants.
And I don't see anything wrong with that either, we're adults, we know
what we're getting.
3. Realizes that just because he's pleased (sexually), doesn't mean that
his partner is pleased (and does something about it).
I do hope that she will clue me in somehow when she isn't pleased. I
think we've all (men and women) been with partners who faked it (oops,
I forgot about the guys who never fail to get their ladies off |-) ),
this can be frustrating for everyone. Good communication is everyone's
responsibility.
5. Decides that macho is not the only feelings he can have.
A person can be overwhelmed by the media. Not a reason, just an excuse.
7. Stops talking about "losing his freedom".
Right now I don't want to get involved too seriously with anyone, my time
is my own and I'd like to keep it that way for a while. Maybe next year
I'll once again be ready for commitment but for now I'd like to be the
only one with rights to my time. Sometimes a man (or woman) might discuss
losing their freedom when really they're afraid of committing themselves.
Is this only a male problem? Is it a problem?
12. Will stop saying that women are hard to understand and fickle.
It seems to me most people are hard to understand, and a lot of them
are fickle. I agree though that this is a lousy rap to put only on women.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any points I didn't respond to I basically agree with, but still say
that there a lot more men out there that measure up. Especially when the
friendship is able to break out of stereotypical roles.
Peter Barbee
decvax-+-uw-beaver-+
ihnp4--+ allegra-+
ucbvax----lbl-csam-+--fluke!tron
sun-+
ssc-vax-+ted@teldata.UUCP (07/14/84)
******************** Well Trish, I hope you realize this is a two way street. I would like to comment on your comments. Remember these are the opinions of one man, straight, 40 years old, one marriage of 19 years (still married), not necessarily typical, not a candidate for sainthood who is sensitive enough to take a diatribe against "men" personally. Your complaints seem to have one or both of two common elements. First is complaints about characteristics of male behavior and attitude which are responses to societal conditioning ie. environmental influences. These influences cannot be attributed specifically to men or women but are a combination. The second factor is your response to a limited sample or reacting to blatant examples which do not represent the norm. Point-by point comments. 1. A man usually doesn't date his platonic friends. My friends who like me and who I like for themselves (their minds) don't require "dates" for friendship. A traditional "date" ie dinner, dancing, a show, etc. is usually a romantic overture even when that date is with my wife. 2. Respect is earned. Respectful treatment is learned through example and reinforcement and is given or withdrawn based on the reaction and attitude or the respectee. 3. Education and communication. A man has one primary erogenous zone which provides him with complete satisfaction. A women has several erogenous zones and every woman has different patterns which provide her with satisfaction. It is ludicrous to assume a man is going automatically know what is going to please this particular woman. If a woman really cares about him or her own satisfaction she will show him what pleases her. 4. Ditto girls. I've also noticed a lot of women broadcasting bits of private information shared by their man quite often to the embarrassment of that man. 5&6. Right on! But you need to try get get to know a man well enough to get beneath the protective shell. Women help promote this attitude by admiring the macho-man and by assuming the role of needing a strong protector. This is not a man/woman issue by a societal one. Men are acting the way they perceive society wishes them to. 7. Recognize this for what it is. More facade related to the macho image. 8. Women should realize that men have affairs with no more emotional involvement than masturbating and the lasting emotional effects on him are no greater than wacking it off in the bathroom. If a man is in a committed monogamous relationship and he strays it is a sign of problems in the relationship and to assume the man to be at fault is dead wrong, there is an equal probability the woman is at fault. 9. Good! Also have the women stop believing they need the handsomest, most macho man in the place. 10. I think you misunderstand the man in that situation. It is more macho ego salving. More often than not the woman being paraded is also parading the beautiful man she caught. 11. Societal or peer pressure won't let him. In private most are and will admit it. Society seems to promote different public and private images. 12. PEOPLE are hard to understand and fickle, its just that a man cares more or has more at stake in understanding women. Women have played at this hard to understand and fickle image. 13. This is a man's reaction to prostitution. Many women will give a man something if he wines & dines her that she wouldn't if he didn't. The only difference in this kind of prostitution and the more obvious kind is the method of payment and prior negotiations. Women could stop promoting the image that they need to have a lot money spent on them to gain their favor (not just sex). 14. I get fed-up with women who wear tight sweaters, slit skirts, skin tight pants, open neck or sheer blouses and then complain about the extra attention they get from men. If you don't want a reaction don't provoke it. What justification is there to wearing slacks or sweaters that are too small or not buttoning the top three buttons of a blouse? There has been some discussion lately about biological determinism. It is real and it does exist. It doesn't account for most of a man's behavior but it does affect him. It is ludicrous to assume the human species has evolved beyond all instinctual actions. I for one can sense a difference in my reaction to visual sexual stimulus depending on how recently I've had sexual release or my state of health and can find no explanation other than biological. Granted, responses to stimulus are largely developed through environmental conditioning but this conditioning is just as much a part of us as is our purely biological responses and can no more be willed away than our need to breath, such conditioning can only be countered by equally strong and persistent counter conditioning. I cannot immediately abandon my lecherous thoughts any more readily than you can abandon you lesbianism, but I make an effort not to condemn anyone else for the way I am and I do try not to make anyone else uncomfortable. Men have a hell of a time being happy and many of them work themselves into an early grave trying to provide for their wives and children. Most men take a "grin and bear it" attitude and try to make the best of the current situation rather than settling for less. A lot of women take delight in making their men jump through hoops, making them beg for permission to do something enjoyable. The same society that developed the macho attitudes of men and the oppression of women has demanded that men be the bread winners and provide the 2 cars, color TV's, 3 bedroom house, microwave ovens, etc., etc. Maybe that's why women live longer that men.
edhall@randvax.UUCP (07/16/84)
I certainly don't plead guilty to this one. Trish has brilliantly nailed down the macho stereotype. And I'd be a fool to claim that a majority of men don't follow it at one time or another. But there are many men, myself included, who are searching for a better way and who, with the help of women on a similar search, are finding it. And I think that writing men off as irreformable boors is just as stupid as writing women off as second-rate human beings. The respect, affection, and trust Trish says men refuse to give women are all mutual things, things that people do *with* each other, and not *to* each other. Either side can say ``no''. Yes, she is right that some men (most at one time or another) refuse to grant women respect, affection, or trust. Her response? Refuse to grant (999 out of 1000) men respect, affection, or trust. And refuse to acknowledge that those men are capable of giving them. I've just one question. Is this an attitude that leads to progress for humanity--women and men? People don't change unless they have the room to change in. -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall
brahms@trwspp.UUCP (07/16/84)
[}{]
To me, what Trish thinks the average man should be, is in fact, what they
are. From the group of people I grew up with from jr. high, all the guys
will "fit the bill". Therefore, to me, those fourteen opinions are the
norm.
-- Brad Brahms
usenet: {decvax,ucbvax}!trwrb!trwspp!brahms
arpa: Brahms@USC-ECLCagust@spuxll.UUCP (07/17/84)
[the line eater is an insensitive macho bigot] >1. I am very happy being gay. period. Good for you. I'm very happy being a man. >2. I have men friends, but I wouldn't give them the time of day on a romantic basis. Sounds like Trish is saying "some of my best frieds are (generic other) but I wouldn't want my (relative) going out with one. >6. My opinion of men will never change, because society won't let men > change. Think about it!!! Who says that men have to wait for society to allow change. You made a change in your life that most of society doesn't accept. If your saying that your better that any man could ever be then you must have one hell of an ego problem. >7. I think that men could be sensitive and caring, but that's uncool for > them, because they think they have to be tough. Think about that too!! What makes you think that you are the only one that can buck society by being different. Men are sensative maybe not all men but many. The stigma that was once associated with a man showing his emotions has lessened in the last few years (thank goodness). Not all men make use of this new freedom but that is an individuals problem. >8. I am not a bigot nor a man-hater. I don't hate anyone, but I do dislike > some folks. Your words show hate even if you won't admit it. >9. I have a variety of friends; gay, straight, male, & female. see number 2. >... opinions won't change until average everyday man: >2. Treats a woman with respect. If a man doesn't treat a woman with respect that man will soon find himself very lonely. I find it hard to believe that most men are this insensitive. If you haven't been treated with respect maybe it's because you don't deserve it. ( sorry couldn't help myself :+) >4. Stops talking about his SO around his friends like she's a burden. Agreed any one ,male or female, that does this is a slob. >5. Decides that macho is not the only feelings he can have. Macho is not a feeling it is an attitude and a lousy one at that. I don't think it is as prevalent as the media and you seem to want to believe. >6. Starts admitting to his friends that he is sensitive and stops acting > like he's so tough. Maybe you've never seen this but I have from both sides. I believe that most males express there feelings more openly to each other than they do to another female. This is not always true, I (probably others too) feel perfectly at ease expressing myself to my spouse. The "macho" (God I hate that word) facade is used to impress female more than it is used to impress men. >8. Stops thinking that he has the right to have an affair, because that's > part of being a man. (by the way, any woman who believes that shit and > puts up with it is STUPID. period) Just cause someone cheated on you doesn't mean that all men cheat on their SO. If they do then they are louses. What evidence do you have that cheating is a male only activity. I realize there are exeptions (MOTSS) but in general the type of cheating you are referring to needs a MOTOS. This means that the blame must fall on both sexes. >10. Doesn't parade his pretty SO around like she's an object. *** The posessive is yours in this statement. If you feel that a male/female relationship is possesive then the attitude problem is yours. If your SO seems to be parading you around maybe its because there is pride in having a relationship with a wonderful person. If the display is purely to impress based on looks then something is wrong with the relationship and both of the members in it. >12. Will stop saying that women are hard to understand and fickle. Women are hard to understand and are fickle, but so are men. Thats because people try to establish a set way of handling a type of person. Much like your attitude that men are crass and unfeeling. These types of statements are usually made by people that refuse to accept anything accept their way of life. If you refuse to change your attitude because because someone else refuses to change theirs then you are both wrong. Kind of like the arms talks. >By the way, I'm not saying that all women are wonderful and fault-free either. >However, I do believe that the majority of the women are o.k. and have had >enough of this garbage from men.... This sounds like the red neck who says: "Yeah there are some bad whites but most of us are ok and the (ethnics) are the main reason this world is fucked up." Your statements sound bigoted even if you don't admit it, sorry. Sorry this got so long but some of us crass insensitive bastards just can't stand facing up to the truth. (sarcasm in case you missed it.) Icelandic Cowboy Agust K. G. ...!spuxll!agust
ted@teldata.UUCP (Ted Becker) (07/20/84)
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