newton2@ucbtopaz.UUCP (07/24/84)
As I understand it, the dispute was one over competing property rights- who had the (exclusive?) right to economically exploit the assets represented by the Vanessa Williams package. I liked "Ian Shoals" (Duck's Breath Mystery Theatre persona) rap on Nightline the other eve-- he spews to fast for me to write to long-term memory, but he had said much that was pithy and pertinent about "a country where Larry Flynt runs for president and a Playboy can have a 'philosophy'..."
heahd@tellab1.UUCP (Dan Wood) (07/24/84)
I basically agree with Trish. I mean this is 1984 and Ms. Willams only had a couple of months to go as M.A. I think if the pageant officials had taken a so what attitude that the media hoopla would have been much less and the whole thing would have passed more or less unnoticed. (I could be wrong. I have been once before |~>.) You can't say that this attention won't help her career as an "entertainer" though. After all, until last friday I couldn't have told you Miss America's name but it is unlikely that I will forget Vanessa Williams now (especially since I've got her pictures tacked up in my office :-] ). I think the same can be said for a lot of people (the part about her name, not the pictures although that may well be true also). Not only that, but she has now joined the ranks of such famous resignees as R.M. Nixon who resigned from the position of Mr. right-wing america when pictures of him in a compromising position with Checkers were published in Pet World in 1973 :-). I doubt that the fact that the pictures showed her with another woman was the real reason for the pageant official's reaction although that fact certainly added to their consternation. Oh no Vanessa, I wouldn't dream of publishing these. DW @ ...!ihnp4!tellab1!heahd
etan@tellab1.UUCP (Nate Stelton) (07/24/84)
I have a possible theory about Vannessa Williams (not that I totally *believe* it). Maybe this was all carefully planned out. She has made history. She probably has generated more publicity for herself than any other Miss America ever. People will remember her name (can you name last year's MA, or the year before?). It seems that she has greatly increased the marketablity of her self. I should think that she already knew she would be dethroned while she was posing for those photos. What do I think about the whole thing? I feel that the Miss America pageant is an insult to today's woman, and this incident is a slap in the face to the pageant. I love it!
riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) (07/24/84)
Personally, I don't feel very sympathetic. If you want to know my
honest reaction to the whole incident, it is the following: the only
thing dumber than posing for Penthouse magazine is taking part in the
Miss America pageant.
Beauty queens have been dethroned for breaking their employers' prudish
standards for as long as there have been beauty queens. The fact that
her spread in Penthouse involves some staged lesbianism adds to the
titillation of the "scandal," but I suspect it would be a scandal in
any case.
Of course, the very similar nature of beauty pageants and the soft porn
industry adds to the irony of the situation. Both draw on the same
pool of naive young women (girls, actually) with dreams of stardom;
both pander to some ridiculously artificial ideas of what women ought
to be about.
As far as I am concerned, this is a contractual dispute between Miss
Whatshername and her two employers. Maybe she's been shafted, but I
suspect we'll never know; I certainly don't see any point in making a
martyr out of her.
--- Prentiss Riddle ("Aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada.")
--- {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!riddlebek@duke.UUCP (Barrett E. Koster) (07/24/84)
RE: Article-I.D.: fortune.3842 I think the Miss America pageant administration is sexist and indulges in delusions of morality and altruism. Yes, I was upset that Vanessa Williams was (is being?) dethrowned for nude modling. But then, I don't really think it is out of character for the committee. They make a profession out of judging people's (excuse me, women's) purity. Why shouldn't they continue? Of course, it is a little hypocritical that they would call someone immoral for modling when the influx and outflux of candidates is largely from that legitimate and respectible profession. It's a little like a guy looking for someone to sleep with, and then calling her a whore if she isn't a virgin. On a larger scale, I see the whole pageant as superficial (and I appoligize to the candidates who bring real value only to be patted on the head for it while the real business -- the meat parade -- goes on.) I mean, when a woman can get kicked out for wearing falsies, it's obvious what the committee is looking for. Why don't they just admit what they are after and have the women walk around nude. So I think the whole idea of judging people pretty much for what God gave them, and also condemning them for actions of the past (where's forgiveness?) is contrary to the Christian and American spirits that the committee pretends to have. Anyway, I am sure that Vanessa is more than good enough to be Miss America, and I am sorry that the only recognition she has gotten for her excellence is from the Miss America Pageant. Barry Koster ..!decvax!duke!bek
sam@phs.UUCP (Sherry Marts) (07/24/84)
The Miss America Pageant and Penthouse magazine are symptoms of the same disease. Both objectify women; both seek to titillate and appeal to the male observer's prurient interest; both present an unreal image of women. The main difference between the two is that the Miss America Pageant leaves slightly more to the imagination. Miss America contestants perm their hair, paint their faces, undergo surgery, starve themselves, and force themselves to smile nonstop for a week in an attempt to earn a quarter of a million dollars. Penthouse models perm their hair, paint their faces, undergo surgery, and take contraceptive steroids to swell their breasts and hips in order to earn several thousand dollars. It's all exploitation, it's all a form of violence against women. In reality, women are not the plastic Barbie dolls of the Miss America Pageant. They are not the mindless Pets of Penthouse nor the Playmates of Playboy. I feel sorry for Vanessa Williams, not because she "lost her title", but because she has accepted such a limited vision of herself. I feel sorry for every woman who sells herself and her sex, whether as a beauty pageant contestant, a model, or a prostitute.
howardh@ihu1e.UUCP (Howard Hill) (07/25/84)
Trish Millines writes: > So what does everybody think about Vanessa Williams being dethroned? > I think it stinks!! So do I. > I don't think the nude stuff bothered them a much as the fact that > the scenes involved another woman. Trish may very well be right on this point; homophobia is endemic in this culture. I really don't understand why the scenes involving a woman should be a problem. Actually, I rather enjoy participating in scenes with women. In fact, some of my best friends are women [although I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one] :-) Seriously, the best way of reacting to nonsensical attitudes is not to take them seriously, while the best way of dealing with the purveyors of such nonsense is to avoid these lunatics altogether (if possible). > She was a better role model than any of the past Miss America's, but > of course they won't even count that. And unfortunately this is > something that will stay with her for the rest of her life. Trish is right, this is something that will unfortunately stay with her for the rest of her life. When people in this culture stop seeing women as products and men as machines; when people stop worrying about small-minded morals, then and only then, will we have a real chance to be human. Yours for more sanity in the world, Howard Hill (ihnp4!ihu1e!howardh) -- . /|\ / | \ / | \ / | \ / |----- *-----"------; ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Another message sailing the net
hawk@oliven.UUCP (07/25/84)
>I don't think the nude stuff bothered them a much as the fact that the scenes >involved another woman. 1: so what? 2: It being with another women does make it a more flagrant departure from the ideas they are trying to push/claim they hold. 3: I think they would have done it even if she had been by herself in the scenes. >She was a better role model than any of the past Miss America's, but of course >they won't even count that. Huh? The fact that she posed for the photos shows this to be false. I'd really like to see some support for your statement. While I'm at it, I'll throw my two cents worth in on the Hot dog incident as sexual harassment. Anybody who sincerely feels that it was her being a women that provoked the complaint has failed Greed 17b. It was the competition, and the traffic distraction bit was simply the best excuse he could come up with. If it was really an issue of she was too pretty, he would have kept his mouth shut and stared out the window at her. hawk -- (Rick Hawkins @ Olivetti ATC) {hplabs|zehntel|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!oliven!hawk
chabot@amber.DEC (Lisa S. Chabot) (07/26/84)
GEORGE = > > She will have gotten more publicity and be known to more people than > any other miss america. It's bucks in her pocket! (purse?) AAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! Not money, again. Trading dignity for money is always a little questionable and risky (and look, having to write code you're not proud of is not so bad as having your privacy published). Besides, what good is this publicity: she's got a dirtied image now (and by historical precedent, this immediately disqualifies her from advertising Ivory soap), and has lost all the advertising arrangements that follow the crown. This incident will not really aid her in publicity, it will fade from public view, just as we quickly forget who won after the Miss America contest. To *think* that the _Omni_ of girlie magazines would actively work to degrade a person so ... :-) L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA 01752
judy@ut-ngp.UUCP (Judith O. Ashworth) (07/26/84)
After seeing these pictures for myself, I'm afraid I cannot sympathize with the former Miss America. They are not at all tastefully done and I really question her judgement in having posed for them in the first place. Also, I believe she is lying about not having signed a release for them. If she indeed had not, there is no way PENTHOUSE would have published them. Actually, I wouldn't be a bit suprised if this whole thing was actually thought up by her. After all, she now has even more public exposure (pun intended) than if she just faded away after relinquishing her crown in September. Maybe she WANTS her career to have a bit of spice in it. Controversy and scandal have always been great free advertising if you can take the heat. Considering the nature of those pictures I'd say they had no choice but to ask her to give up her title. I don't believe that this is the sort of image we want our Miss America to project. I only wish PENTHOUSE had enough class to wait until she was no longer the current Miss America ... Judy (ut-ngp!judy)
davidk@dartvax.UUCP (David C. Kovar) (07/26/84)
Someone commented that Miss (Ms?) Williams should be be happier
with the outcome of this incident because it will put more $$$
in her hands. This is one *good* case where money != happiness!
Will money make up for embarassment, loss of title, loss of face,
ridicule, etc etc? I would say no, but I am not her. If you think
money will cure everything, I will give you $100,000 in gold,
strap it to your legs and arms and toss you in the ocean.
--
David C. Kovar
USNET: {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk
ARPA: davidk%dartmouth@csnet-relay
CSNET: davidk@dartmouth
"The difficult we did yesterday, the impossible we are doing now."miller@nlm-mcs.ARPA (Nancy Miller) (07/26/84)
I think asking Miss America to resign is expected of the Pageant, because the whole idea of the Pageant has always been based upon very old-fashioned attitudes. It just seems that they are not willing to begin living in the 1980's. Years ago, such controversy would not result, and her career as an entertainer would be ruined. Nancy Miller (nlm-mcs.ARPA)
lowry@fortune.UUCP (John Lowry) (07/28/84)
By my calculations, $100,000 in gold is about 27 pounds. You sure you want to bet that I can't swim with 27 pounds strapped to my legs?
abh@ccivax.UUCP (Andrew X. Hudson) (07/30/84)
Sure its a drag, but what I am wondering is whether our friends at Penthouse Enterprises have a few pictures of Mrs. Ferraro and are waiting for the right opportunity..... Andrew Hudson "Tears on my pilow and Ave Maria" -- Fuck you, Brook Shields, Oh Fuck You!! - Big Apple Rotten to the Core Compilation ...[rlgvax | decvax | ucbvax!allegra]!rochester!ritcv!ccivax!abh
msimpson@bbncca.ARPA (Mike Simpson) (07/30/84)
***
30 July 1984.
This may be construed as stretching the point a bit, but
here goes nothing.
Last week (I think it was Tuesday, 7/23) Cable News
Network's CROSSFIRE program had on a female vice-president of
Penthouse and a spokeswoman from NOW, debating the whole Vanessa
Williams affair. I was horrified by two things:
1) The speed with which the confrontation (if you watched
it, you'd agree with me that it was hardly a 'discussion')
shifted from 'was it right for Miss Williams to give up her
crown' to an argument over the magazine's First Amendment rights
to publish the pictures. COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!
2) The intense 'power trips' that both women were on.
To the NOW speaker, all pornography was an expression of this
society's violence against women, and the obvious solution was to
pass laws against it.
Wasn't this once the land of the free?
Whatever happened to the pressures of the marketplace --
i.e., don't legislate against sales of porn, rather educate
people not to buy pornography that in your opinion degrades
women? (Side note -- I have heard few, if any, women talk about
gay pornography. Why?)
The Penthouse representative stoutly maintained that
Penthouse did not discriminate against women, that many of the
positions of power in Penthouse were filled by women, and that
the magazine was willing to defend Miss Williams against the
pageant's decision and to offer her a job promoting the magazine.
Of course, right after that came Guccione's remark about Williams
being a 'shameful, deceitful little girl' who was now paying the
price for 'trying to put one over on the pageant' and who 'denied
another, possibly more worthy girl' of winning the title -- a
remark that speaks volumes. (But I digress.)
Each speaker ran roughshod over the other, and over
'moderators' Tom Braden and Pat Buchanan. Each one was more
certain of the 'wrongness' of her adversary's position that of
the 'rightness' of her own. Fortunately, perhaps, the speakers
were not physically on the same set -- a very undignified battle
wouldn't have been out of the question.
Did anyone else see that CROSSFIRE show, and care to
comment on it? Mail responses, or post them.
-- Mike Simpson, msimpson@bbncca.{arpa,uucp}
--
-- your obedient servant,
Mike Simpson, BBN
msimpson@bbn-unix (ARPA)
{decvax,ihnp4,ima,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!msimpson (Usenet)
617-497-2819 (Ma Bell)garey@ut-ngp.UUCP (riggs, austen) (08/08/84)
There is nothing sacred about model releases used by photographers. The ones I've seen are standard forms from magazines or newspapers. In fact many how to photography books have samples in the back that can be xeroxed and used. All you models out there: Make up your own model release with any clause you want to protect yourselves (i.e. expiration date). Have a lawyer look at it if it makes you feel better. Then insist the photographer uses it instead of his/her own. I can't see any jection an honest photographer would have. My dad is a semi-professional photographer who often uses releases, thats where I've seen them before> Jim Garey ut-ngp!garey