jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (08/21/84)
Before anyone comes out with their favorite woman-hating conspiracy theory
involving Redbook, I thought I'd submit my fiancee's reaction, as well
as I understand it.
The fantasy of being forced to have sex would legally be rape if it occured
in reality, but the fantasies referred to in Redbook have little or no
similarity to actual rapes. The male in the fantasy is a specific person,
not some random rapacious bozo off the street. The reason the act would be
forced is not because the woman doesn't have the hots for him, but because
of the real-life consequences if she did do it (doesn't want to get emotionally
involved, husband would be hurt if he found out, etc.). And finally, these
fantasies (masochists excepted) involve none of the sadism which seems to be
the primary feature of real rapes.
In short, no one should construe these fantasies as evidence that women like
to be raped (which I believe was the concern expressed).
Smile,
Jeff Winslowariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan) (08/21/84)
>Before anyone comes out with their favorite woman-hating conspiracy theory >involving Redbook, I thought I'd submit my fiancee's reaction, as well >as I understand it. > >The fantasy of being forced to have sex would legally be rape if it occured >in reality, but the fantasies referred to in Redbook have little or no >similarity to actual rapes. The male in the fantasy is a specific person, >not some random rapacious bozo off the street. The reason the act would be >forced is not because the woman doesn't have the hots for him, but because >of the real-life consequences if she did do it (doesn't want to get emotionally >involved, husband would be hurt if he found out, etc.). And finally, these >fantasies (masochists excepted) involve none of the sadism which seems to be >the primary feature of real rapes. > >In short, no one should construe these fantasies as evidence that women like >to be raped (which I believe was the concern expressed). > > Smile, > Jeff Winslow Thank you, Jeff. An aquaintence of mine once voiced his opinion that women don't have "rape" fantasies, but "ravishment" fantasies. I think this is much more along the lines of what the Redbook respondants had in mind. Read a few Harliquin Romances and you'll get the idea. Ariel Shattan ..!tektronix!orca!ariels
plw@mgweed.UUCP (Pete Wilson) (08/23/84)
Ariel and Jeff both described my idea of the "rape fantasy" very well. The problem I had with the survey was that some judges, and probably most rapists, believe that the fantasy is what women REALLY like and want. The survey helps keep rape in a category that is not taken as seriously as it should be. Notwithstanding the preceding statement, however, courts and police are finally coming to realize that very few (none) of the women 'ask for it' or desire the rape. Perhaps 'ravishment' would have been a better word to use in the survey. Then I wouldn't have had such a knee-jerk reaction to the emotional content of the word 'rape'. Pete Wilson AT&T-CP Montgomery Works Montgomery, IL ...ihnp4!mgnet!mgweed!plw
features@ihuxf.UUCP (M.A. Zeszutko) (08/23/84)
The difference between an actual rape and the Redbook rape fantasies lies in who is in control of the situation. In a person's fantasies, s/he can play whatever role s/he wants, switching around at will. If a fantasy becomes too threatening, it can be ended. A real-life rape is not so accomodating. Mary Ann Zeszutko AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxf!features
agust@spuxll.UUCP (Agust K Gudmundsson) (08/23/84)
>The fantasy of being forced to have sex would legally be rape if it occured >in reality, but the fantasies referred to in Redbook have little or no >similarity to actual rapes. The male in the fantasy is a specific person, >not some random rapacious bozo off the street. I cannot verify this statistic, but I seem to remember reading that the majority of rapes, murders and other violent crimes are commited by someone the victim knows. Not some bozo off the streets. I would also venture to say that the people fanasizing about rape have not been raped. Rape is not a crime of sex but a crime of violence that involves sex. Icelandic Cowboy Agust K. G.
nerad@closus.DEC (08/27/84)
{libation...}
Yes, I'm back! I really have been here all the time, but my work has kept me
from writing for a LONG time...
I am fairly sure that if Playboy or Penthouse went around and asked what are
the average readership males favorite fantasies, one among the top rated would
be: "To have a beautiful, wicked woman (to my specifications) come and ravish
me under circumstances I could not control." Sounds fine right? So why is
the emotional reaction so different to Redbook's "rape fantasy?" Because they
used the word rape.
I think that Jeff et al are correct in stating that "ravishment" rather than
"rape" is the appropriate way to state this. The average female is
conditioned in this society to believe:
a) sex is bad (and when/if she outgrows this, that:)
b) sex is socially complicated--it leads to relationships
c) sex is socially complicated--it leads to pregnancy
d) sex is socially complicated--it leads to rejection
All of these conditions can be avoided by abrogating responsibility, which is
a condition that women are urged toward in their sexual attitudes at the same
time that they are told that it is their responsibility to be VIRTUOUS. The
role of the man is to GET IT, the role of the woman to RESIST. This is
inculcated in every aspect of society. (Not the opinions of the management,
before I get flames back...)
a) sex is bad
but if you resist unsuccessfully, it ain't your fault
b) sex leads to relationships
but if you are ravished, then:
either it's a one time thing
or--part of the fantasy is that he's so
taken with you that HE will maintain it.
c) sex leads to pregnancy
but never in fantasies, unless you want it to
d) sex leads to rejection
but if it's your fantasy, it can't reject you unless
you have a taste for it.
Ravishment fantasies are the erotic Walter Mitty fantasy of the american
female. Something that takes you out of the responsibilities of the
conditions that surround you. If Redbook called it "ravishment," it would be
like any sector of the press giving up a weighted word--wouldn't happen. But
I wonder, if they did the same questionairre over with two options in the
place of the one--with the choice of "rape" or "ravish"--if they wouldn't come
up with very different results.
Shava Nerad
Telematic Systems (@DEC Ed. Svcs.)
{decvax, allegra}!decwrl!rhea!closus!neradsmb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (08/29/84)
From: agust@spuxll.UUCP (Agust K Gudmundsson) Subject: Re: rape and Redbook fantasies Message-ID: <560@spuxll.UUCP> Date: Thu, 23-Aug-84 16:53:29 EDT I cannot verify this statistic, but I seem to remember reading that the majority of rapes, murders and other violent crimes are commited by someone the victim knows. Not some bozo off the streets. I would also venture to say that the people fanasizing about rape have not been raped. Rape is not a crime of sex but a crime of violence that involves sex. Icelandic Cowboy Agust K. G. The statistics are accurate. Something like 70% of all murders are committed by friends or relatives of the victims, though this percentage has been dropping, especially in large cities. Similarly, a majority of rapes are so-called "acquaintance rapes" -- by dates, co-workers, neighbors, "friends", etc. (My source for this latter item is a friend who used to head a rape crisis center, and has done a fair amount of research on the subject of rape.)