[net.women] Sensitivity, Male teases, Dr. Joyce Brothers

hollis@ucf-cs.UUCP (William Hollis) (10/13/84)

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Realizing that with the problems of the net recently, I post (again)
the following. Please forgive me if you have seen this before.

Greetings and salutations, Gentle readers.

Please forgive me for any Fax Paus I may generate by this article,but it
is my first time posting. ^^(sp?)^

I feel a need to contribute on many articles at once, for there seems to me
to be a string of connection to them. I have been discussing with a friend
the ever changing relationships between the sexes. As has been said before,
there is more that is alike between the sexes as there is the same. 

First off, I think that the part of the Male Tease needs attention. Laurie had
the unfortunate circumstance to walk into the middle of a confused male.
>**Has this happened to you lately?**
>
>Scenario:  You're in class, at a party, at work, or at your favorite place...

At first, we can say a few things here:
 1)As mentioned previously, words mean differnt things, likewise, actions
   can mean different things also.  He may have truly  *not*  known that he
   was putting out the wrong signals. Again, as with communication, people
   should know what they are 'saying'.
           We cannot really say much here, but that someone didn't understand
           someone. Mistakes happen.

 2)He may have realized that he was putting out the signals, then when he
   realized that 'the quarry' (if you will please allow me to use hunting 
   terms for use in dating, for I believe that they are closely related)
   was all of the sudden interested, he panicked (sp) and did not know what
   to do.
           Here we have the unexpected happening, and when the male gets 
           what he is finally after, he spooks.  He may have literally been
           scared out of his wits.  

 3)Again, he may have realized what he was doing, kept on doing it, and 
   being a mean person, or even to prove to himself that he could refuse to
   go to bed with someone. A 'cute' (by other womens definitions) guy I know
   was extremely happy when he had the 'guts' to turn down a female. I thought
   that the guy wasn't being particularly nice. He didn't really do it with the
   idea in mind to be a 'tease' but just to show that he could do it.
           I have very little comment on this one.  Since I have made the
           reference above, I obviously have seen it from the males.  I also
           (very close at hand) have seen it from the females.  No matter who
           does it, it it not nice, but this world is made up of not nice
           people who abuse thier positions (looks, brains, supervisors,
           teachers, politically, etc.). I believe that this speaks for itself.

 4)Lastly, and this is a biggie, it may just be that the guy knew what he was
   doing, kept on going, and at the final moment (when he realized what was 
   about to happen) backed out. 

This is one that I can really get in to.  I realize that the guy was not nice
for doing this, but I can actually see how it could occur.  I belive in the old
saying 'put your money where your mouth is' but this is human emotions that we
are dealing with, not a game (although some do enjoy playing games with others
emotions, but I will get to this later).  I would like to site (sp) some 
reasons why the male might back out because of fear,and not of meaness:

1)Rape: Yes, believe it or not, if you are a male, you have, still, little
protection against being accused of rape.  If the female is under age
(depending on the state) you are even in worse problems. If for example,
a female decided that, either for revenge or for her own mental problems
(and yes, I know that there are as many crazy men as women) that you raped
her, even if you never heard a 'no' then you can be put up on rape charges.
Even if you are not found guilty, this can cause many problems for you in
employment (I know that employers aren't supposed to take that into account,
but some do) and security clerences. About the female being under age, I heard
(from a female friend of hers) that she said 'It is too bad that I am having
a birthday soon, I won't be able to hold the charge of statutory rape over
my boyfriends heads'.  That is, I will agree, a possibly extreme case, but
if you are male, you have to consider that.

2)Pregnancy: This one is a bad one too.  If you get someone pregnant, and they
opt to have the baby, you will pay for the next 18 or so years.  I realize that
it is not all the females responsibility to handle this, but (as I am sure that
you have heard before), there are very little choices for a male. One is not
very pleasurable, and the other is possibly irreversable.  I also realize that
for the female there is no 100% gaurenteed approach, but neither are the two
mentioned above either. Also, there are more methods for preventing pregnancy
in a female, and they do not diminish the pleasure for either partner.

3)Venerial Disease: This affects both female and male, I know, but in this
case I am speaking to both.  It is,as I am sure you know, possible to catch
many diseases from an unknowing/uncaring date.  Since some are 'uncurable'
(as of present medical knowledge) then there is a real fear of what might 
happen.

These are the points that I would think that would make a male back out.
Some other possibilities are just mental problems,or a past SO (please
give the meaning of that acronym, I know the general,but I wish the specific)
that gave them a problem just because they went to bed with them. What I hope
that my point has come out to mean, is that sometimes the answer is not always
what the obvious seems to be. The above are MY personal worries, as I am sure
that others have more.  

Also connected to 'the hunting game' is the problem of, as I believe that it
has been said before being 'kicked in the face'.

>If that really *is* your attitude, then I don't blame them one bit
>for ''kicking your teeth in''.
>            -Ed Hall

Well, I don't know about that, in fact I too have read 'Born to Win'. It is
(for those of you unfamiliar) a book on psychological self improvement. It
goes into trying to not let others use you as a bean bag, and having the
ability (if I remember correctly) to opt out of 'game playing roles'.  These
are psychological games, ie, the one of 'Kick Me' is where the person is always
asking, esentially, for someone to put them down.  I do think that some people
actually do ask for pain, but they are mal adjusted, and there are as many
males and females playing this game.  On the most part, though, I don't think
that people are asking to be hurt.  I personally try to be somewhat gullible,
believing that the other person is not going to do me harm.  When I learn 
that they are less than neutral, then I tend not to trust them (depending, of
course, on how much they betrayed my trust).  I do think, however, that there
are quite alot of people out there because of job pressures,and other problems
that enjoy the game of 'kick the dog'.  I have seen many times the highly 
intelligent comment that 'put a person right in thier spot' (usually quite hard
and let loose to make a complete fool out of the other person). Males are
considered to be more physically oreinted any women more verbally oriented. 
This may account for why women seem to be dealing more 'death blows', and
also they have to, sometimes, get rid of the persistant male who does not
seem to have the intelligence to get the hint to leave her alone.  I would,
however, like to say that sometimes I have seen the female do more damage
with a few well choosen words than any male could with quite a few punches.
Also, it should be realized that a male cannot physically defend himself
against such a verbal attack the same way he would against a male.  In the case
of a male, it would be simple enough to just hit him (Realizing that violence
is the last resort of the incompetent, but at least he has this resort). With
a female, it would almost be sucidal in a public place to hit her, as the male
would have five or ten other ready males to punch his lights out whether or not
the male was right in hitting the female.  Persoanlly, I have been taught to
not respond to verbal attacks, and the times I have been slapped by a female,
I have held my temper and walked away.  I have never hit a female (besides my
sisters, and they were bigger then) and I suspect that my learning is such that
I would only defend myself if attacked by a female.  I really have only one
last thing to say about sensitivity.  The few times that I have been invited
by Feminists (usually radical) to raise my consciousness, I have been aware
that I was not there to be helped, but usually to be shown as an example.  I
also realize that there are good as well as bad people in this world, and that
somewhere out there there may be a Radical Feminist who actually does not feel
the need to take her frustrations out on me.  But, as stated above, there has
been very little effort made to help when I was in a state of mind to be 
accepting, in fact, there was only, as far as I am concerned, and effort to use
me as a prop.  I would like to state that I do believe in ERA, etc, but not the
type of Animal Farm, 'Some of us are more equal than others', espoused by those
who have been the under dogs so far. It does no good to make the oppressors the
oppressed, and the oppressed the oppressors.

>In resonse to Laurie Sefton's original article I can only say this: What
>you are experiencing is the inevitable backlash of the 1970's feminist
>movement.
>    .
>    .
>    .
>  Jim Collymore

This seems to be something I heard from my parents age group in reference 
to all of the unspeakable crimes commited by the 1960-1975 (approximately)
age group.  It sounds like you are more preoccupied with blaming things on
the 1970's then you are with seeing why this exists.  I do believe that as
signals (as discussed in previous articles) get more mixed up, we have a harder
time relating our wants/needs.  I also do not believe that, as I took it to be
implied in the article, men are taking from females what females have done to
men.  Basically what has happened is that men are finally able to be 'great 
looking hunks' and able to abuse that. Previous to "the 1970's" (and the 1970's
would have happened the same no matter what was going on) men didn't have the
oppourtunity to take females out and 'tease' them.  

Well, I have babbled for more than enough for my first time, Comments are
appreciated (by mail if you wish). Hopefully I have put my mail address on
right.  If not, please leave a note telling me that it is wrong.
                   Thanx,

                     Ken Hollis

P.S. The views expressed above are mine, and not those of any company or 
instution I am affiliated with, and usually not the views of any friends :->

If you love something, let it go.
If it comes back to you, it was always yours.
If it doesn't, hunt it down and kill it.  :-)


In response to Dr. Joyce Brothers:

>At the age of 22, there are more men than women, but sometime during that
>year, the balance shifts, and at the age of 23, there are more women than men.
>From then on, it is all downhill. By the time a women is 40, for instance,
>there are almost 300 single women for every 100 single men.
>  .
>  .
>  .
> Dr. Joyce Brothers.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, or good news (depending on your sex :->),
but Dr. Joyce Brothers was not talking about the United Staes in general, where
she was talking about, I don't know its location.  The ratio eventually only
evens out at about the age of 34, not 23 (for the average white male).  Take a
look at the census books.  The figues of 300 to 100 are (if I remember 
correctly) right at about the age of 60 or so.  Dr. Joyce Brothers also, in my
opinion, seems to have a somewhat 'chauvanistic' (sp) attitude about males.  I
seem to get the impression that she thinks most males are weak, and able (just
barely) to care for thier own bodies, much less anything else. If I am wrong,
I invite any and all to crtisize me (as I am sure you will be happy to do :->).


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