del@dataio.UUCP (Erik Lindberg) (12/22/84)
< eatme > The discussion here is missing the point, and I am already separating this into a new discussion not particularily related to the original topic of rape. The whole thing seems to have degenerated into a discussion of whether men owe women this courtesy, whether they should do it as a gift, or if it is just common decency. With arguments against mostly either claiming they can't be bothered worrying about it, they're too proud (or along that line) or saying it should be up to the women. ***** Well try this on for size: I wish to treat a woman as an equal, in fact to make no delineation between wo/men other than (obviously) sexually and the personal relationships that might result between interested parties. Now, after the above, there are only people in the world. When a person feels uncomfortable in a situation involving another person, it is their responsibility to determine whether to avoid the situation (like crossing the street), or to confront it (like putting on whatever kind of airs). It is not the responsibility of any person to expend any effort anticipating other peoples' insecurities (with the possible exception of people in an alien culture). This is not only a waste of effort (more often than not), but can even be construed as insulting, demeaning, etc. Note that this is not a description of utopia, but of what our society (and NOW, ERA, etc) claims to be working toward: equality. Yes, I do get a little excited when someone suggests that men should cross the streets to avoid frightening women, but that has nothing at all to do with the fact that they are women. Simply that I feel that no problem was ever solved by trying to compensate for it with a reaction that skirts (no pun intended) the issue. If you want to do someone a favor, try doing something direct. Like take them where they need to go. Sorry I have no answer to the bigger question. Erik Lindberg AKA del ...!uw-beaver!teltone!dataio!del ( Life is like a rose. It looks pretty, but don't grab on too tight! )
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (12/24/84)
(this flame brought to you by the end of Phil's patience) I can't believe the way this discussion has been going. Countless women take the effort to say, oh so diplomatically, "Guys, it would really ease our mind if you used the other side of the street when there are just two of us on a dark street so we don't have to worry if we're going to be attacked or not" and countless men react with flames to the effect of 1) how dare you accuse me of being a rapist, I'm not the type and it should be obvious to anyone. 2) well, ladies, if you want equality you should act just like a man and not worry about being raped. 3) if it bothers you why don't *you* cross the street? I'd like to go on record as a man who would be happy to cross the street under the above circumstances, if I were ever in such a situation. (see, I live in California, and walking is, you know, grody to the max, besides, you don't find that many sidewalks here. :-) > of airs). It is not the responsibility of any person to expend any > effort anticipating other peoples' insecurities (with the possible This sounds like something a hermit would say. I would hope no responsible member of a community would believe this. (rest of quote follows) > ***** Well try this on for size: > > I wish to treat a woman as an equal, in fact to make no delineation > between wo/men other than (obviously) sexually and the personal > relationships that might result between interested parties. > > Now, after the above, there are only people in the world. When a person > feels uncomfortable in a situation involving another person, it is > their responsibility to determine whether to avoid the situation (like > crossing the street), or to confront it (like putting on whatever kind > of airs). It is not the responsibility of any person to expend any > effort anticipating other peoples' insecurities (with the possible > exception of people in an alien culture). This is not only a waste of > effort (more often than not), but can even be construed as insulting, > demeaning, etc. -- AMD assumes no responsibility for anything I may say here. Phil Ngai (408) 749-5790 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPA