jon@boulder.UUCP (12/17/84)
jdh@hou5g.UUCP (Julia Harper): >But I am suggesting something that you, a man, can do to make the world a >nicer place for a woman -- even a woman you don't know. This suggestion >was made in good faith. I don't think it's difficult, I do think it is >a gift that men can give women. Yet every (just about) response by >a man has been to tell women that he will do nothing, and that all >responsibility should lie in her hands. You know, I really try hard to understand women, and to treat them with the respect and friendship that they deserve. I have been told that I do fairly well (most of the time). But I feel hurt when confronted with the attitude displayed in the message above. You see, I just do not like being treated as a violent criminal. My upbringing in the middle of Wyoming did not emphasize treating women as equals; it takes a real effort. This is an effort that I am willing to make, because equal they truly are. Is it too much to ask to be treated as an equal too? I am not a rapist, and I carry no infectious diseases; I don't see why I should have to yield the sidewalk to any other person. Rape, and all the other problems faced by women as they try to take their rightful part in the world, will never be solved as long as either sex treats the other as enemies. My crossing the street will not improve any woman's chances of avoiding rape, since I am not a rapist. It will only put another barrier between men and women, and is thus counterproductive. I realize that my attitude does nothing for the woman who wonders if she is about to be grabbed. I wish I knew how to solve that problem. I do know that expecting me to cross the street every time I encounter a woman will not. Besides, what if there is a woman on the other side too? If I suddenly cross the street toward her, would she not be even more upset than before? -- Jonathan Corbet National Center for Atmospheric Research, Field Observing Facility {seismo|hplabs}!hao!boulder!jon
moiram@tektronix.UUCP (12/18/84)
>>jdh@hou5g.UUCP (Julia Harper): >>But I am suggesting something that you, a man, can do to make the world a >>nicer place for a woman -- even a woman you don't know. This suggestion >>was made in good faith. I don't think it's difficult, I do think it is >>a gift that men can give women. > jon@boulder.UUCP (Jon Corbet): >My upbringing in the middle of Wyoming did >not emphasize treating women as equals; it takes a real effort. This is an >effort that I am willing to make, because equal they truly are. Is it too >much to ask to be treated as an equal too? I am not a rapist, and I carry >no infectious diseases; I don't see why I should have to yield the sidewalk >to any other person. Julia's SUGGESTION has nothing to do with whether or not men are being treated as equals. She is not asking for a mandate, she is not saying you SHOULD (argh, how I hate that word) take action, she is not stating that this is a parameter which must be fulfilled if you are to be considered a sensitive, caring man. Julia is ASKING (on behalf of all nervous women on the streets after dark) for a GIFT. Part of taking responsibility for what we want in life is to ASK for it. It does not imply entitlement, or expectation that it this request will be granted. But there may be a few caring souls out there, who have had their consciousness raised about how women might feel on the street alone at night, and the next time they find themselves in that sit- uation choose to give the woman the gift of a little less unease. The rest of you can do whatever you please. Moira Mallison tektronix!moiram
sunny@sun.uucp (12/20/84)
Perhaps we're dealing with a subset of human relations which might
better be dealt with at a higher level. If women didn't fear men in
general, then the fear of being alone with a random one on the street
at night wouldn't be a problem. Perhaps we should all be dealing with
the larger problem in general, rather than this funny little subset.
Let's go back to the fundamental problem which causes this symptom.
Why do women have ANY reason to EVER fear a man? This discussion of
how (not) to walk the streets grew out of a discussion of rape. Thus
the fundamental fear here is the fear nearly every woman has that a man
will use his genetically superior physical strength to overpower her
and force his will upon her, rape or otherwise. i.e. that he will
dominate her. The root problem is that the men have the power, and
abuse it. The overall term which describes this situation is
"patriarchy". I'm *not* proposing that matriarchy is the answer, but
that equality is. When men stop using their superior physical strength
in an abusive and demeaning manner against women, then the problem of
one meeting the other on the street will cease to exist. Until this
root problem is solved, the symptom will remain. The attitudes of men
are the source of the fear in women.
Sunny
--
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunnyrobison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (12/20/84)
(Quote at end of article)
It's a great nuisance to think about crossing the street to avoid
frightening women, but this suggestion reminded me of the time I was
out walking late at night, in our nice moderately safe suburb, and
starting gaining on a n elderly woman 100 feet ahead, in a deserted
street. Suddenly I could hear her trying to walk much faster,
obviously to keep her distance from me; it clearly wasn't easy for her
either.
Now I might, like the author to whom I am responding, have become
very angry at being "accused" of being a mugger, but I could all too
easily see this situation from her point of view. She simply didn't
want the risk of being mugged, and she was afraid (and perhaps also
horribly embarassed at how her behavior looked at me).
I can't think of any easy way to resolve this situation except
to do something reassuring like walking in another direction,
or slowing down. Anything else that I might try, a mugger could try
as well. I will direct my anger toward our current situation in
society, which has created this problem (my own belief is that many
more policemen and better birth control would clear it up in a
reasonably short time), and give my empathy to those who walk the
late night streets with me.
By the way, that elderly woman could just as easily have been an
elderly man, or a young child of either gender (yes, their parents do
let them out sometimes late at night).
- Toby Robison (not Robinson!)
{allegra, decvax!ittvax, fisher, princeton}!eosp1!robison
In article <259@boulder.UUCP> jon@boulder.UUCP writes:
>
> You know, I really try hard to understand women, and to treat them
>with the respect and friendship that they deserve. I have been told that I
>do fairly well (most of the time). But I feel hurt when confronted with the
>attitude displayed in the message above. You see, I just do not like being
>treated as a violent criminal.jamcmullan@wateng.UUCP (Judy McMullan) (12/20/84)
>My crossing the street will not improve any >woman's chances of avoiding rape, since I am not a rapist. It will only put >another barrier between men and women, and is thus counterproductive. I have to disagree with that. I would see it as a positive indication that you were benign. It would be behaviour clearly inconsistent with an intention to mutter threats or lewd remarks as you go by or grab a quick "feel" or attack more seriously. > I realize that my attitude does nothing for the woman who wonders if >she is about to be grabbed. I wish I knew how to solve that problem I do >know that expecting me to cross the street every time I encounter a woman >will not. Well, Julia's suggestion may not appeal to you. She was reaching over the far gulf that seems to exist between the worlds of men and women and trying to make a suggestion for sympathetic men. It seemed like excellent advice to me. I'm on her side of the gulf. Only a couple of men have posted articles saying they took the advice to heart. Some men have counter-suggested smiling and saying "Hello" as being non-threatening. --Advice from the other side of the gulf! Little do they seem to realize that that is exactly what the men who make unwelcome sexual advances and crude comments often start with. The fact that other men have done things to make women fear them, affects you to the extent that women fear YOU, until they know you. You can regretfully accept that. You can enjoy that. Or you can realize what women are going through and try to show you are not one of THEM, as an act of kindness. --from the sssstickkky keyboard of JAM ...!{ihnp4|clyde|decvax}!watmath!wateng!jamcmullan
tracy@hcrvx1.UUCP (Tracy Tims) (12/22/84)
> The attitudes of men are the source of the fear in women. > > Sunny Are you accusing me of being a part of the machine that oppresses women? Or are you just being semantically sloppy? If it is the first case I am disturbed by your arrogance and lack of regard; and in the second case I reccomend more care in your writing (passion is fine for a start, but you will not convince me with wild words and a will to believe.) Tracy Tims {linus,allegra,decvax}!watmath!... Human Computing Resources Corporation {ihnp4,utzoo}!... Toronto, Ontario, Canada. 416 922-1937 ...hcr!hcrvax!tracy
colonel@gloria.UUCP (George Sicherman) (12/28/84)
[If it moves, eat it. If it doesn't move, salute it. --Vogon proverb] I was walking down Moebius Avenue at 3 A.M. when I saw a dangerous- looking woman approaching. Of course I crossed to the other side. Imagine my surprise when I walked right into her! I had forgotten that MOEBIUS AVENUE HAS ONLY ONE SIDE! From now on I'm going to protect myself by carrying my lucky Klein Bottle with me. Then if I ever need a place to hide, ... -- Col. G. L. Sicherman ...seismo!rochester!rocksanne!rocksvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel