jdh@hou5g.UUCP (Julia Harper) (12/26/84)
<>
(That was probably an inappropriate title. Although I must say, an
awful lot of men who write to net.women seem incredibly angry.)
The following was to be a response to the (fairly) recent WOMEN vs MEN survey.
Considering the continuing hostility between *some* women and *some*
men, (raving feminist bitches and perverted male sexists), I thought
I'd send in my personal (who elses!) opinion of the problem. (For those
who don't remember the survey, I leave it to you to figure out the questions...)
1. I am female.
(I am woman, I am strong, la la la dee la doowah!)
2. The attitude of the opposite sex that is most prevalent and disturbs
me the most is that they think women aren't discriminated against.
That any discrimination is brought on by the woman herself -- that she
deserves it. That men in general don't discriminate against women, only
the really slimey ones. They NEVER think that THEY discriminate. This
isn't true. In fact most men and women discriminate against women
(just as most whites and blacks discriminate against blacks).
A woman is trained to believe that her sexual attractiveness and her
ability to bear children are the be all and end all of her life -- this
is both positively and negatively reinforced. Any other activity is
discouraged. "Feminist" (if you will) training is usually a smaller part
of her growing up process. The long history of this treatment of women has
lead to a dirth of famous women (partly because of the difficulty women
have had in reaching a state where they could do something worthy of fame,
and partly because those who have done fame-worthy things are generally for-
gotten and ignored -- because it doesn't fit with the historical societal
view of women), and has lead to a historical "proof" of the inability of
women to achieve any other goals than those typically expected of them.
Far too many men (more men than women) just can't seem to understand the
affect of this history on our perceptions. They can't see that THEY
are helping to perpetuate the myths we have been taught, thus helping
to ensure they come true.
3. I believe that the reason for this attitude amongst the opposite sex
is obvious. Who wants to be guilty of discrimination? But what better
way to fight discrimination than to recognize it, look for it, and try
to bring it into a realm of conciousness where it can be more easily
battled.
(If you believe that this attitude is a real problem and has significant
ramifications if not remedied, please answer the next question.)
4. I believe that this attitude problem can be solved. I also think its
a REAL PROBLEM. It wouldn't be a real problem if all involved -- women
and men, would just accept the myths and live them. It wouldn't be a
problem if all people rejected them. The problem is, there are some in
both camps. And the lines, while not strictly sexual, put far more
men than women in the anti-women's-rights camp.
To restate the problem: too many people (more men) won't admit the
discrimination against women is a societal problem -- meaning we ALL
are guilty. The problem is complicated by the fact that MOST of the
people telling us of the problem (women) can be dismissed as less than
capable of comprehending such a problem to begin with (because is
doesn't fall into the category of the abilities of women). Indeed,
this problem seems almost insurmountable when it comes to women
discussing this issue with men... after all, if a man is
prejudiced against women, yet doesn't know it, and a woman tells him
he is, then she accomplishes nothing, because he values her opinion
(a women's opinion) too little to find it worth investigating, much
less believing. Yet if he acknowledges this prejudice, her discussion
of the societal problem becomes a subject almost too painful for him,
as it reminds him of his own guilt. (A women doesn't have the same
problem... for each pang of guilt she must feel about her own prejudice,
she can balance it with a feeling of anger or righteousness, or whatever).
p.s. I certainly see no simple solution. My brother (our discussions have
become much less LOUD than they used to be) loves now to tell me, "Yes, of
course you're right, there IS discrimination. But you can't expect it to
change overnight." He's right, of course. But there are those of us (alas,
what a fate!) who must be in the forefront of change (which I am not!
I am simply further toward the front than the people behind me...), otherwise
there would be no change!
Julia Harper
(entertaining myself during Christmas week)js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (12/28/84)
Julia Harper writes: > That men in general don't discriminate against women, only > the really slimey ones. They NEVER think that THEY discriminate. This > isn't true. In fact most men and women discriminate against women You're right, Julia. I didn't think that I discriminate against women, and I have been thinking about this while I've been trying to edit this follow-up, and I still haven't thought of anything, unless you want to count holding doors, etc. Maybe if you could come up with a few examples of discriminatory behavior that most men exhibit, we could all work toward changing those behavior patterns. BTW, no :-) intended here. I really want to find out what we're still doing wrong. Please remember that I need examples of things that MOST men do, not just really slimey ones. Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (12/30/84)
Grrrr! I'm REALLY angry NOW! I'm a RAGING HAIRY...
Oops, I'm on! Ahem, well, er, ah....
Seriously, I would like to comment on the general idea "we are ALL guilty"
for whatever you like, say discrimination against women. Interesting
parallel with the idea of original sin, hmmm? Personally, I find it
ridiculous on the face of it. But to the point...
The flip side of this philosophy is the angry person who says, "You're
ALL guilty, therefore it doesn't matter who I bash, I'm striking a blow
for women's equality (or whatever)." Whether we are all guilty or not is
of no consequence. What is is that certain people have much more power to
further this discrimination that others, and they are the ones who should
feel the pressure (Ronald Reagan, for example). Not surprisingly, they are
also the ones who are most able to resist pressure, because of their power.
So usually the little person feels the brunt of the anger from the "ALL
guilty" school. As I said, ridiculous...
"Quick! Alienate your friends before they become your enemies!!"
Jeff Winslow