jdh@hou5g.UUCP (Julia Harper) (12/14/84)
> > It's impractical to expect men in general to cater to your fears. >I have a better suggestion; better because it's practical, and within >your power to carry out without cooperation from others: *you* cross >the street to avoid *him* (wasn't that easy?). I'm shocked at the responses I've seen to the suggestion of men doing something to alleviate apprehension in women. I'm sure we women all know the option of crossing the street is open to us. So also is the option of not going out in the street, or walking angrily toward our potential assailant/harasser. These are things we women can do to protect themselves from harm/harassment on the streets. But I am suggesting something that you, a man, can do to make the world a nicer place for a woman -- even a woman you don't know. This suggestion was made in good faith. I don't think it's difficult, I do think it is a gift that men can give women. Yet every (just about) response by a man has been to tell women that he will do nothing, and that all responsibility should lie in her hands. In the reponses I've seen, men are so offended/angered by the suggestion that their presence ever makes a woman uncomfortable, that they (revengefully) end up suggesting that women must be paranoid... Remember, this is a street we're talking about. I can't believe that there aren't any men out there that, knowing the apprehension women feel about man(men) coming toward them, want to do something to alleviate that fear. This is a chance for you, a man, to do something concrete. Do this instead of opening doors for women. > Constant anger is not much fun, and hard on the body, as well. >Anger in an actual attack can be helpful, but using anger to ward off >potential attacks is really just a variant of the "stay indoors" >solution for rape. It advises you to build walls that reduce your contact >with a dangerous world. I await better solutions. You're right, constant anger is NOT much fun, but it's more fun than fear. Anger DOES ward off potential attacks. I also await better solutions to the problems faced by women. But in the meantime, we must come up with solutions that we, personally, can implement. As noted by you earlier, you are not willing to alleviate our apprehension by even so simple an action as crossing the street. I get the feeling you think this apprehension is totally unrealistic, hysterical, typical of the emotional overreaction to a situation so typical of women. You don't seem to understand that the streets are threatening and dangerous. Constant cat calls by men to women don't improve the situation. We women are tossed between two lines of attack regarding our recognition of this danger. First, we are told that we are paranoid, that our fear is unreasonalbe. Then, if something happens, we are told that it was our own fault, that it was something we did or didn't do right. The way for us women to overcome our fear is NOT to deny it, but to admit it, confront it, and confront men who make us fearful in situations that are not life-threatening. We should bind together. I am not hysterical. I am sometimes fearful. I am not ashamed of being fearful. I have ways of dealing with my fear. I have concrete actions I take to help alleviate my fear. It is right and good that women look to themselves for support and actions to control their own lives. But my suggestion HERE is something that a MAN can do to improve the situation for WOMEN. If you have a different suggestion about what a man can do, please make it. Again, if you (anyone) has other concrete suggestions as to how a typical man (a friend of yours) could help make women in general less apprehensive, please feel free to suggest it. Julia Harper
mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (12/15/84)
>I'm shocked at the responses I've seen to the suggestion of men doing >something to alleviate apprehension in women. I'm sure we women all >know the option of crossing the street is open to us. So also is the >option of not going out in the street, or walking angrily toward our >potential assailant/harasser. These are things we women can do to >protect themselves from harm/harassment on the streets. > >But I am suggesting something that you, a man, can do to make the world a >nicer place for a woman -- even a woman you don't know. This suggestion >was made in good faith. I don't think it's difficult, I do think it is >a gift that men can give women. Yet every (just about) response by >a man has been to tell women that he will do nothing, and that all >responsibility should lie in her hands. In the reponses I've seen, men >are so offended/angered by the suggestion that their presence ever makes a >woman uncomfortable, that they (revengefully) end up suggesting that women >must be paranoid... Remember, this is a street we're talking about. > >I can't believe that there aren't any men out there that, knowing >the apprehension women feel about man(men) coming toward them, want to >do something to alleviate that fear. This is a chance for you, a man, >to do something concrete. Do this instead of opening doors for women. Is this a fear felt by women generally, or just by some women who live or have lived in dangerous parts of US cities? The whole problem seems incredible to me. But then, I'm just a man, living in a city I believe to be reasonably safe to walk in at night. I know we have had US visitors who have expressed surprise at seeing solo women (obviously not streetwalkers) walking around downtown after midnight in Toronto. If it is a regional problem, the proposed solution (the man to cross the street) seems appropriate until something is done about the danger of those areas. If it is a general problem, a more appropriate solution might be to find a way to change an inappropriate fear level (I don't know how one would do this, but it seems akin to other phobias, like fear of spiders or of flying). Why should a woman fear a man walking on the street in an area where the threat probability is very low? It would be interesting to hear from European women on this one. -- Martin Taylor {allegra,linus,ihnp4,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt {uw-beaver,qucis,watmath}!utcsrgv!dciem!mmt
srm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian) (12/16/84)
In article <477@hou5g.UUCP> jdh@hou5g.UUCP (Julia Harper) writes: > >I am suggesting something that you, a man, can do to make the world a >nicer place for a woman -- even a woman you don't know. This suggestion >was made in good faith. I don't think it's difficult, I do think it is >a gift that men can give women. Since I have crossed the street upon occasion in such situations, I can assure my fellow men that it's neither difficult nor especially inconvenient. Remember, we're talking about a relatively deserted street late at night. It's not as if you'd be spending all your time criss-crossing while steady streams of women marched down alternate sides of the street. If the street were that crowded, the problem wouldn't arise. C'mon guys. Take this thing seriously and stop nit-picking about your "rights". -- Richard Mateosian {allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!srm nsc!srm@decwrl.ARPA
js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (12/17/84)
> But I am suggesting something that you, a man, can do to make the world a > nicer place for a woman -- even a woman you don't know. This suggestion > was made in good faith. I don't think it's difficult, I do think it is > a gift that men can give women. Yet every (just about) response by > a man has been to tell women that he will do nothing, and that all > responsibility should lie in her hands. In the reponses I've seen, men > are so offended/angered by the suggestion that their presence ever makes a > woman uncomfortable, that they (revengefully) end up suggesting that women > must be paranoid... Remember, this is a street we're talking about. > > I can't believe that there aren't any men out there that, knowing > the apprehension women feel about man(men) coming toward them, want to > do something to alleviate that fear. This is a chance for you, a man, Maybe that's just it, maybe we DON'T know the apprehension women feel about men walking on the streets. Are you talking about reasonably well lit, non-empty streets in non-nasty sections of town? Those are the only kind you're likely to find ME on, anyway. Throughout this discussion, I've thought about crossing the street, but the whole thing seems as though it would look so SILLY. Unless you're talking about streets which are nearly deserted, dark, etc. Am I wrong here? Are you apprehensive on ordinary well-lit, peopled streets in good parts of town? Or has this whole discussion included, unstated, the idea that we are talking about nearly empty streets. I have no problem in crossing in this latter instance, although I don't usually travel in places like that myself, so I doubt if I'll often need to. But surely we're not expected to cross back and forth avoiding women on normal streets? Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j
carson@homxa.UUCP (P.CARSTENSEN) (12/18/84)
The two things that would worry me are (1) someone obviously changing the pace of his walking behind me and (2) someone being at more or less the same distance behind me for "too long" (This "too long" depends on how late/dark/etc. it is, but usually can be deduced from large numbers of nervous glances over my shoulder....) Anyhow, what I would appreciate (Understanding that you really can't worry about every other figure you see around you on the street--I walk around in a daze enough that I better not throw any stones...) is (1)if possible, give more that an arm's length berth when/if you pass me (2)if possible, pass at a better-lit place like an intersection, and (3) if there is an equally good route to where you are going and you have noticed a lot of fearful glances at you, cross the street, turn sooner, or whatever Basically, I don't WANT you to go out of your way--which is why I appreciate the kindness when you do...Patty
annab@azure.UUCP (12/18/84)
> > I can't believe that there aren't any men out there that, knowing > > the apprehension women feel about man(men) coming toward them, want to > > do something to alleviate that fear. This is a chance for you, a man, > > Maybe that's just it, maybe we DON'T know the apprehension women feel about > men walking on the streets. > Throughout this discussion, I've thought about crossing the street, but > the whole thing seems as though it would look so SILLY. Unless you're talking > about streets which are nearly deserted, dark, etc. > Am I wrong here? Are you apprehensive on ordinary well-lit, peopled > streets in good parts of town? Or has this whole discussion included, > unstated, the idea that we are talking about nearly empty streets. > But surely we're not expected to cross back and forth avoiding women > on normal streets? > > Jeff Sonntag I quite agree with Jeff in that it looks kind of silly to be crossing back and forth across the street. But, Ladies, if you really feel uncomfort- able that's what you should do. I (a woman over 30) find that there have been many occasions when something I wanted to do (alone), called for me to have to walk through the heart of a large city at night. Almost every time I have been approached by someone (except in KaiLua but that's not large) I have adapted a practice of crossing the street only when there are a few men in a group. The rest of the time I try to give the impression of having a purpose, a goal, by walking quickly. That way you aren't mistaken for some- one who is out to make a little extra money. My point is I have never been harassed. I mearly continue towards my goal. Annadiana Beaver A Beaver@Tektronix
annab@azure.UUCP (12/18/84)
I should have stressed the word HARASSED in my previos posting. I also didn't mention that I was speeking of after 10:00 pm. Annadiana Beaver A Beaver@Tektronix
emjej@uokvax.UUCP (12/19/84)
/***** uokvax:net.women / hou5g!jdh / 10:32 pm Dec 15, 1984 */ I don't think it's difficult, I do think [crossing the street to avoid passing women on the sidewalk] is a gift that men can give women.... In the reponses I've seen, men are so offended/angered by the suggestion that their presence ever makes a woman uncomfortable, that they (revengefully) end up suggesting that women must be paranoid... /* ---------- */ But gee, if I were the potential rapist that I am prejudged as by the hypothetical woman, I could cross the street, then threaten the woman from afar with a gun and return, so merely crossing the street doesn't seem to suffice. Wearing a straitjacket when walking on any street that might contain women isn't enough either, since I could always be wired with explosives. (This wouldn't benefit me, but I could think of myself as adding to that general fear of men that is supposed to do males lots of good (like causing them to be automatically tagged as probable sex criminals), and thus die in a good cause (:-> ** aleph-null).) How far must I go to assure others of my harmlessness? Conversely, as a person who doesn't follow the advice of the Vikings and hence carelessly sits with back to the door, I often put myself in a position in which the women in the room could, without too much physical effort, stab me in the back or shoot me. Should they make a point of walking in front of me always, perhaps with hands up or nude to assure me that they carry no concealed weapons? James Jones
jss@brunix.UUCP (12/22/84)
The original posting about street-crossing said clearly that we were talking about dark, lonely streets. The character who was worried about getting hit by traffic while crossing these streets, as well as about meeting more women on the other side, have either come in late (very likely in this sort of forum), or are determined not to understand the problem. judith brunix!jss
rdz@ccice5.UUCP (Robert D. Zarcone) (01/07/85)
> > > The original posting about street-crossing said clearly that we were > talking about dark, lonely streets. The character who was worried about > getting hit by traffic while crossing these streets, as well as about > meeting more women on the other side, have either come in late (very > likely in this sort of forum), or are determined not to understand the > problem. > > judith > brunix!jss I am one of those late arrivals. I came to this net for the porn ordinance discussion and discovered this one already in progress. I, therefore, have two questions: 1. Are you suggesting that a man cross the street if a woman is approaching so she won't have to suffer any stress or trauma? 2. If the answer to number one was yes; Are you serious? [:-/-)] *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***