jamcmullan@wateng.UUCP (Judy McMullan) (12/15/84)
>Anger in an actual attack can be helpful, but using anger to ward off >potential attacks is really just a variant of the "stay indoors" >solution for rape. It advises you to build walls that reduce your contact >with a dangerous world. I await better solutions. Yeah. You can wait. Meanwhile we women have to walk down the street or through train stations or into subways. We've got to cope with the leers and the brushings-against and the dirty and suggestive comments, and worse. I won't go into what happens in our own offices and homes. Too many of us have learned the hard way that the cold, deadening stare or the anger work better than timidity or friendliness. And it IS boring and it DOES cut us off from the world. And we HATE it. However, we need something that works, right NOW -- in our day to day lives, while we await the 'better solutions'. --from the sssstickkky keyboard of JAM ...!{ihnp4|clyde|decvax}!watmath!wateng!jamcmullan
paulb@hcrvx1.UUCP (Paul Bonneau) (12/18/84)
[Out Vile Jelly!] Judy McMullan writes... > Yeah. You can wait. Meanwhile we women have to walk down the street or > through train stations or into subways. We've got to cope with the leers > and the brushings-against and the dirty and suggestive comments, and worse. > I won't go into what happens in our own offices and homes. > Too many of us have learned the hard way that the cold, deadening stare or > the anger work better than timidity or friendliness. And it IS boring and > it DOES cut us off from the world. And we HATE it. However, we need something > that works, right NOW -- in our day to day lives, while we await the 'better > solutions'. This is really unfortunate. Please note that I am not disagreeing with Judy's method of prevention, I'm not a woman, I haven't experienced such things, but I don't doubt their validity. The sad part is that this male/female interaction looks like a vicious feedback loop. From recent articles in this newsgroup, many men may resent the cold harshness of "castrating bitches", etc., and build up resentment. Meanwhile, the women, in fear of all men as a result of the more Neanderthal of those among us, resort to "cold deadening stares", thereby adding to the resentment, thereby increasing/encouraging the Neanderthals, ad infinitum. But I really can't think of anything approaching a realistic solution, (and if there were, it surely must have been thought of already). No matter how civilized we pretend to be, it's situations like this that show just how unsuited humankind is to its relatively newfound intelligence. I mean we really are just animals (albeit thinking ones), and it seems that a bit more evolution is in order (but this is another topic - watch out for low-flying tangents!). Oh well, it feels good to talk about it, even if it doesn't get me anywhere. -- I'm a man! I'm not a horse! Paul Bonneau {decvax|ihnp4|watmath}!hcr!hcrvax
barry@ames.UUCP (12/18/84)
[] From wateng!jamcmullan (Judy McMullan): > [me]>Anger in an actual attack can be helpful, but using anger to ward off > >potential attacks is really just a variant of the "stay indoors" > >solution for rape. It advises you to build walls that reduce your contact > >with a dangerous world. I await better solutions. > > Yeah. You can wait. Meanwhile we women have to walk down the street or > through train stations or into subways. We've got to cope with the leers > and the brushings-against and the dirty and suggestive comments, and worse. > I won't go into what happens in our own offices and homes. > Too many of us have learned the hard way that the cold, deadening stare or > the anger work better than timidity or friendliness. And it IS boring and > it DOES cut us off from the world. And we HATE it. However, we need something > that works, right NOW -- in our day to day lives, while we await the 'better > solutions'. I guess I was unclear in distinguishing "potential attack" and "actual attack". If you will recall, I was responding to an article about the *fear* of being accosted, not about actual harassment. I agree that anger is a proper response to "the leers and the brushings-against [if intentional] and the dirty and suggestive comments, and worse." I think that it is counter-productive, however, as a "defense" against males whose only threat is their proximity. I retract my last sentence, and will instead propose a better solution: Take a self-defense class. This will not only help against an actual attack, it will increase your self-confidence and thereby lessen your fears (if you have them) of the possibility of attack. Not a complete solution to the problem, I agree, but better than replacing constant fear with constant anger. - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry SOURCE: ST7891
jamcmullan@wateng.UUCP (Judy McMullan) (12/20/84)
---------- > I guess I was unclear in distinguishing "potential attack" and >"actual attack". If you will recall, I was responding to an article about the >*fear* of being accosted, not about actual harassment. I agree that anger >is a proper response to "the leers and the brushings-against [if intentional] >and the dirty and suggestive comments, and worse." I think that it is >counter-productive, however, as a "defense" against males whose only >threat is their proximity. > I retract my last sentence, and will instead propose a better >solution: Take a self-defense class. This will not only help against >an actual attack, it will increase your self-confidence and thereby lessen >your fears (if you have them) of the possibility of attack. Not a complete >solution to the problem, I agree, but better than replacing constant >fear with constant anger. >- From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry A self-defense course may prove helpful if one is physically attacked, eg. for robbery or rape (or "fun"). There is no self-defense course that will show one how to protect oneself against being hooted at by men in the street, etc. The techniques I mentioned before have worked better than others. I see the lewd comment as a prelude to worse things if I cannot deflect it quickly. I practise NOT letting men catch my eye (I admit it -- I have not yet learned to fear women & I am MUCH more relaxed in the company of strange women) in public. I practise looking hostile if I find some guy looking me over. I get away if someone starts touching or making suggestive remarks. I have always been able to get away before things have gotten really bad (so far). What I am trying to say is that the first line of self-defense is to avoid the larger physical attack by avoiding the verbal & small physical attacks. A self-defense course is no good for that. Actually the small attacks are bad enough to endure time after time. I wish there WERE a good way to stop them. How about it people?? I don't expect most of you make sexual suggestions to women in the streets (or elsewhere)!! BUT almost EVERYBODY has been around when some jerk HAS. Ever see one of these types stopped cold?? What makes them clam up?? A smart retort?? A pitiful sight (maybe if we all went about with leg braces they'd feel bad about being mean)?? I know it's not an ugly woman because I have been in groups where the worst-looking woman gets the most abuse (unfortunately sometimes the worst-looking woman was ME). Maybe a situation exists where the man no longer feels the confidence to be hostile? (for instance, his dentist might have the drill in her hand). Maybe something makes them empathize?? (for instance, he might have recently received a sexual advance from a man in the subway). There must be stories and I'll bet a lot of them are funny. --from the sssstickkky keyboard of JAM ...!{ihnp4|clyde|decvax}!watmath!wateng!jamcmullan
seifert@mako.UUCP (Snoopy) (12/24/84)
In article <1787@wateng.UUCP> jamcmullan@wateng.UUCP (Judy McMullan) writes: >I see the lewd comment as a prelude to worse things if I cannot deflect it >quickly. sometimes. >I practise NOT letting men catch my eye (I admit it -- I have not >yet learned to fear women & I am MUCH more relaxed in the company of strange >women) in public. why, Judy, you *sexist* you! for shame! >Actually the small attacks are bad >enough to endure time after time. I wish there WERE a good way to stop them. true enough >How about it people?? I don't expect most of you make sexual suggestions to >women in the streets (or elsewhere)!! BUT almost EVERYBODY has been >around when some jerk HAS. Ever see one of these types stopped cold?? >What makes them clam up?? A smart retort?? Yes, a smart retort has been known to work. Once this jerk at the office (well known for harassing everyone in sight) took a look at some data my friend was plotting, and asked "What's this funny bump?" She asked "What's *this* funny bump?" patting him on the (pot) belly. -zing- One jerk shot down. [ok, so it lost something in the transcription...] > I know it's not an ugly woman >because I have been in groups where the worst-looking woman gets the most >abuse (unfortunately sometimes the worst-looking woman was ME). worst-looking woman in the group? I've seen your picture, Judy, who are you trying to kid? (perhaps I should be asking who are these friends of yours! :-) ) oh, *I* get it! you were with a group of men, and were the *only* woman in the group. _____ |___| the Bavarian Beagle _|___|_ Snoopy \_____/ tektronix!tekecs!seifert <- NEW ADDRESS !!! \___/
saquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (01/05/85)
> > From wateng!jamcmullan (Judy McMullan): > > > > Yeah. You can wait. Meanwhile we women have to walk down the street or > > through train stations or into subways. We've got to cope with the leers > > and the brushings-against and the dirty and suggestive comments, and worse. > > I won't go into what happens in our own offices and homes. > > Too many of us have learned the hard way that the cold, deadening stare or > > the anger work better than timidity or friendliness. And it IS boring and > > it DOES cut us off from the world. And we HATE it. However, we need something > > that works, right NOW -- in our day to day lives, while we await the 'better > > solutions'. > > I guess I was unclear in distinguishing "potential attack" and > "actual attack". If you will recall, I was responding to an article about the > *fear* of being accosted, not about actual harassment. I agree that anger > is a proper response to "the leers and the brushings-against [if intentional] > and the dirty and suggestive comments, and worse." I think that it is > counter-productive, however, as a "defense" against males whose only > threat is their proximity. > I retract my last sentence, and will instead propose a better > solution: Take a self-defense class. This will not only help against > an actual attack, it will increase your self-confidence and thereby lessen > your fears (if you have them) of the possibility of attack. Not a complete > solution to the problem, I agree, but better than replacing constant > fear with constant anger. > I took a self-defense class. One of the things we learned in the class is how to give that "cold deadening stare" that Judy mentioned above. The point that was made in class was that prevention was the best way to deal with potential attacks. > - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry Sophie Quigley ...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax}!watmath!saquigley
molefeuvre@watarts.UUCP (Michael O LeFeuvre) (01/08/85)
It is not clear to me whether JAMcmullen speaks of a "cold, deadening
stare" and anger as a constant stance in public places or as a response
to a specific threat. I agree with Ken Barry that it is not a very
desirable as a constant attitude towards the world.
Victims of assault (physical or verbal) are chosen by a subtle process
of evaluation. If the potential aggressor percieves victim as vulnerable
(mentally or physically), attack is more likely. That perception can be
prevented by replacing constant fear with constant anger, but constant anger
is not the only way. Simple absence of fear does a great deal.
Agression and anger are not the same thing. Men who attack passing women
with leers or comments are being agressive but not angry or hateful. If
women should not introduce anger and hate to the scene as a response if it
is not necessary. Lack of fear and self-confidence are adequate in most
cases.
Although I am male, I have dealt with some of this. When I was sixteen,
I was leered at or propositioned by gay men in several incidents.
I niether feared nor hated the men in question, I ignored them or answered
quietly and very firmly -- i.e. with confidence.
Carlo @ the U of Waterloochabot@amber.DEC (l s chabot) (01/11/85)
Carlo @ the U of Waterloo == > > If women should not introduce anger and hate to the scene as a response if it > is not necessary. Lack of fear and self-confidence are adequate in most > cases. > Although I am male, I have dealt with some of this. When I was sixteen, > I was leered at or propositioned by gay men in several incidents. > I niether feared nor hated the men in question, I ignored them or answered > quietly and very firmly -- i.e. with confidence. Ah, there's the rub: you felt you were dealing with equals. Unfortunately, many, many women have been raised or whatever to believe that they are in several ways inferior to men. If nothing else, there is the ever-present fear, that even if a woman deals with the offender firmly and even tactfully, that he may decide to physically over-power her, and being larger (and also, in too many cases, he lacks the disadvantage she has had of being raised not to be athletic or otherwise physically confident) he will succeed. You're right in the importance of confidence, but, well, it can be really hard to work to dispel long years of being coerced to be quiet and meek, and learn to be confident. L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA