west@utcsrgv.UUCP (Thomas L. West) (12/22/84)
<>
This bantering is getting a little overlong. Might we face some facts?
(1) A fair number of women *do* view a strange male as a *potential* threat.
There is *nothing* that can be done about it in the short run. Whether it
can be construed as paranoia, natural caution, or whatever is totally
irrelevant. The fact is that in certain settings, (eg deserted streets)
we males DO cause fear in a large number of women by our very appearance.
This is fact.
(2) There is no way that we can allay this fear with a smile or phrase. Our
physical presence is the cause of fear, and in fact, a smile or phrase is
likely to *increase* what fear exists.
This is fact.
(3) The only means of relieving the fear is to remove ourselves from the
close physical proximity. This usually entails crossing a street.
This (appears to be) fact. (Nobody has come up with an acceptable (to the
women) alternative.)
Given these facts, the outrage of various males about being viewed as
*potential* assailants is pretty pathetic. They ARE viewed a potential
assailants and there is nothing that can be done about it (in the short
term). They can rant all they like, it's NOT going to change the fact.
The other postings about flipping back and forth on streets are silly
as well. I think it was very obvious in the original posting that what was
meant was deserted streets. Because this wasn't made EXPLICITLY clear is
no reason to assume that the author was nuts and expected men to weave through
traffic for every female. Going on about scaring women on the other side or
being hit by traffic is irrelevant to the discussion and an attempt to push
the request into the absurd. Let's assume that the author was rational, shall
we?
What it comes down to is this. In the face of these facts, we are
*requested* to cross the road. NOT demanded. NOT expected. Just requested.
We may do so or not do so as we wish. To flame about this request and the
reasons behind it is silly. Arguing can't change the existing facts. I too
dislike being viewed as a potential assailant, but I am. Therefor I might
as well adjust my behaviour to take this fact into account, and, because I
*do* try to make other peoples lives easier, I will cross the road on
deserted streets.
The original posting was well merited. I was unaware of this fear that
existed (yes, and dismayed that it exists). I thank the poster for the
(albeit unpleasant) insight into one aspect of women's lives.
Tom West
{ allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo }!utcsrgv!westsunny@sun.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) (12/24/84)
There's more than one way to not skin a cat.
Might I suggest something which seems to have been overlooked? There's a
lot more subtlety to body language than crossing the street. For those men
who wish not to appear threatening, yet consider it too much effort to cross
(and re-re-cross) the street to give a lone woman some secure space, try using
eye contact (or, specifically, the lack thereof) to show distance. In other
words, if a man walks down the street with eyes straight ahead on his path, and
does not look at the women he passes, then they will see the distance (mental
rather than physical) and not be so afraid. Other postings have made it clear
that being friendly is not conducive to feeling secure against overfriendliness.
Being distant by virtue of totally ignoring the presence of others can be more
effective than walking across the street and still ogling passersby. There's
a lot to be said for, and learned from body language, the most signifigant
part of which is eye contact.
Sunny1
--
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunnybarry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) (12/26/84)
[] From sun!sunny (Sunny Kirsten): > Might I suggest something which seems to have been overlooked? There's a > lot more subtlety to body language than crossing the street. For those men > who wish not to appear threatening, yet consider it too much effort to cross > (and re-re-cross) the street to give a lone woman some secure space, try using > eye contact (or, specifically, the lack thereof) to show distance. This gets my vote as a good suggestion for both parties in "lonely dark street" encounters. I normally use avoidance of eye contact in such circumstances to say "I'm harmless". I also do the same thing to avoid contact with anyone who makes *me* apprehensive on a dark street, the message here being, "don't bother me". My SO, who has lived back East and walked the fearsome streets of NY and other Babylons, also uses this technique to avoid potentially unpleasant encounters, and has had 100% success. I think the "crossing streets" discussion should be put to rest. It was meant constructively, and so were some of the responses, but the current raised hackles on both sides suggests to me that the effect, now, is just to further misunderstanding. - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry SOURCE: ST7891
dae@psuvax1.UUCP (Daemon) (12/29/84)
Please keep in mind that the obviously racial remarks below are *not* my own opinion. Thank you. west@utcsrgv (can you type that ten times fast?) writes: > This bantering is getting a little overlong. Might we face some facts? Perhaps it should (ideally) last until the problem is resolved, no? > (1) A fair number of women *do* view a strange male as a *potential* threat. > There is *nothing* that can be done about it in the short run. Whether it > can be construed as paranoia, natural caution, or whatever is totally > irrelevant. The fact is that in certain settings, (eg deserted streets) > we males DO cause fear in a large number of women by our very appearance. > This is fact. A fair number of "white" people view blacks in their school systems as a threat to their children (NOT ME). Whether or not is can be construed as paranoia, natural caution, or whatever is totally irrelevant. The fact is ... This is fact. > (2) There is no way that we can allay this fear with a smile or > phrase. Our physical presence is the cause of fear, and in fact, a > smile or phrase is likely to *increase* what fear exists. This is > fact. There is no way we can allay this fear with integration of the schools (let alone smiling). It's been tried. Note the lack of lack of racial tension in the South. > (3) The only means of relieving the fear is to remove ourselves from the > close physical proximity. This usually entails crossing a street. > This (appears to be) fact. (Nobody has come up with an acceptable > (to the women) alternative.) The only means of relieving this fear is segregated school systems. This (appears to be) fact. Nobody has come up with an acceptable (to some whites) alternative. > Given these facts, the outrage of various males about being viewed > as *potential* assailants is pretty pathetic. They ARE viewed a > potential assailants and there is nothing that can be done about it (in > the short term). They can rant all they like, it's NOT going to change > the fact. Here's the real cutter. "Given these facts, the outrage of various blacks about being viewed as potentially detrimental to white education is pretty pathetic...They can rant all they like, it's NOT going to change the fact." > What it comes down to is this. In the face of these facts, we are > *requested* to cross the road. NOT demanded. NOT expected. Just > requested. Julia Harper (jdh@hou5g.uucp -- where *did* that article go?) asked very nicely. Patty (pardon me if I don't go look you up?) said (tell me if I'm wrong) that she didn't feel it incumbent upon men to cater to her (possible) paranoia. There are quite a few others (won't mention by name, and will *not* say "the rest") who *have* been demanding, expecting, and downright rude. I might add that it's not just a request if, when you answer "no", you are berated. > The original posting was well merited. I was unaware of this fear > that existed (yes, and dismayed that it exists). I thank the poster > for the (albeit unpleasant) insight into one aspect of women's lives. I do, too. It bothers me that I (I am told I look somewhat more fearsome than the norm) am likely to be feared by random women I meet on the street. I'd like to dispell whatever of this feeling I can, and that is why I'm so bothered that Tom feels that I should just accept that I'm terrifying instead of trying to do something about it. Women: is there anything I *can* do? I'll adopt street-crossing if there's not, but I don't see that as a permanent solution. [I'm not quite sure I believe I'm posting this...maybe you won't, either] -- \ / \/ \ / From the furnace of Daemon ( ...{psuvax1,gondor,shire}!dae ) \/ (814) 237-1901 "I will have no covenants but proximities" [Emerson] When the going gets tough, the weird turn pro.
west@utcsrgv.UUCP (Thomas L. West) (01/02/85)
[bug crossing a street] I feel I should reply to Daemon's attack on my article, so here goes... >> This bantering is getting a little overlong. Might we face some facts? > Perhaps it should (ideally) last until the problem is resolved, no? Er, yes. I guess it should. Point conceded. > Please keep in mind that the obviously racial remarks > below are *not* my own opinion. Thank you. And they CERTAINLY aren't mine. Just making that clear, thank you. The attack took the form of transforming what I considered the facts about the attitudes of a fair number of women towards strange males on deserted streets (fear) and what I thought that could be *immediately* done to allay this fear (not a whole lot except leaving the general proximity) and converting it to what could be considered facts on racial integration (some parents fear it) and what could be done to allay this fear (not a whole lot except stopping integration). The analogy was cute (I certainly did a double take) but quite incorrect. It is quite accurate to assume that there are certainly some parents who fear racial integration in the school system, and whose fears would only be laid to rest by a desegregated school system. This *is* fact. BUT (and it'sa BIG but) in the second case, the fear is worth putting up with because the results of integration are an enhanced view of those of other races. Hence nothing should be done to reduce those parents fears in the only way they could be. They are going to have to suffer. In the first case, however, I can't see the advantage in having the women suffer the fear any longer than is necessary. There appears to be only one solution, and that is to leave the close proximity. Since there is no advantage forgone by crossing the street, there is no reason not to do so, since there *is* and advantage (=reducing the woman's fear) in crossing the street. As for finding a better solution, if you find a short-term solution, please post it *immediately*. You'll be highly regarded in many people's books. (Well in mine, at least.) Of course, this street crossing business is no long term solution (I hope that's intinsically obvious to everyone) but *I* haven't heard of any more effective short term solution. Let me make it clear, however, that I don't accept it as the only solution, just the only short term one. Long term solutions are being worked on at the same time. This stop-gap *is* functional for short time periods, however. Tom West { allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo }!utcsrgv!west The posting being replied to follows: >> = me (west@utcsrgv) > = daemon (dae@psuvax1) >> (1) A fair number of women *do* view a strange male as a *potential* threat. >> There is *nothing* that can be done about it in the short run. Whether it >> can be construed as paranoia, natural caution, or whatever is totally >> irrelevant. The fact is that in certain settings, (eg deserted streets) >> we males DO cause fear in a large number of women by our very appearance. >> This is fact. >A fair number of "white" people view blacks in their school systems >as a threat to their children (NOT ME). Whether or not is can be >construed as paranoia, natural caution, or whatever is totally >irrelevant. The fact is ... This is fact. >> (2) There is no way that we can allay this fear with a smile or >> phrase. Our physical presence is the cause of fear, and in fact, a >> smile or phrase is likely to *increase* what fear exists. This is >> fact. >There is no way we can allay this fear with integration of the schools >(let alone smiling). It's been tried. Note the lack of lack of racial >tension in the South. >> (3) The only means of relieving the fear is to remove ourselves from the >> close physical proximity. This usually entails crossing a street. >> This (appears to be) fact. (Nobody has come up with an acceptable >> (to the women) alternative.) >The only means of relieving this fear is segregated school systems. >This (appears to be) fact. Nobody has come up with an acceptable >(to some whites) alternative. >> Given these facts, the outrage of various males about being viewed >> as *potential* assailants is pretty pathetic. They ARE viewed a >> potential assailants and there is nothing that can be done about it (in >> the short term). They can rant all they like, it's NOT going to change >> the fact. >Here's the real cutter. "Given these facts, the outrage of various >blacks about being viewed as potentially detrimental to white education >is pretty pathetic...They can rant all they like, it's NOT going to >change the fact." >> What it comes down to is this. In the face of these facts, we are >> *requested* to cross the road. NOT demanded. NOT expected. Just >> requested. >Julia Harper (jdh@hou5g.uucp -- where *did* that article go?) >asked very nicely. Patty (pardon me if I don't go look you up?) >said (tell me if I'm wrong) that she didn't feel it incumbent upon >men to cater to her (possible) paranoia. There are quite a few >others (won't mention by name, and will *not* say "the rest") >who *have* been demanding, expecting, and downright rude. >I might add that it's not just a request if, when you answer >"no", you are berated. >> The original posting was well merited. I was unaware of this fear >> that existed (yes, and dismayed that it exists). I thank the poster >> for the (albeit unpleasant) insight into one aspect of women's lives. >I do, too. It bothers me that I (I am told I look somewhat more >fearsome than the norm) am likely to be feared by random women I meet >on the street. I'd like to dispell whatever of this feeling I can, and >that is why I'm so bothered that Tom feels that I should just accept >that I'm terrifying instead of trying to do something about it. >Women: is there anything I *can* do? I'll adopt street-crossing >if there's not, but I don't see that as a permanent solution.
tom@ucbcad.UUCP (01/17/85)
> Being distant by virtue of totally ignoring the presence of others can be more > effective than walking across the street and still ogling passersby. > Sunny1 This sounds eminently reasonable to me. If someone crossed the street to avoid me, I'd wonder what they were up to (my wife had the same reaction when I told her of the street-crossing argument), but I wouldn't feel threatened by someone ignoring me. My own belief is that, if you don't want to frighten someone, DON'T DO ANYTHING WEIRD. This includes smiling and greeting a stranger as a friend, and also includes crossing the street to avoid them. Tom Laidig
nemo@rochester.UUCP (Wolfe) (01/22/85)
> My own belief is that, if you don't want to frighten someone, > DON'T DO ANYTHING WEIRD. This includes smiling and greeting a stranger as a > friend, and also includes crossing the street to avoid them. > > Tom Laidig Damn shame, but it's true. Where I come from, it's normal to greet (not as an intimate friend, but in a friendly manner) people you pass on the street, but I've gotten looks like I was crazy or up to no good when I've done it up here. I can only feel sad for those who have grown so cold and suspicious, while I work my way back home (where it is considered rude not to greet others). Nemo