gordon@bolton.UUCP (Gordon Partridge) (02/23/84)
A well-placed kick can be very effective. In the 1840's, a famous ballet dancer, Fanny Ellsler, was touring the U.S. She was performing in Washington, DC (where Congress adjourned its sessions so members could see her dance). An attacker confronted her; she responded with a grand battement, the high ballet kick that normally reaches up to the dancer's shoulder level at a minimum. In this case, it ended in the attacker's rib cage, and he died a few days later. Gordon Partridge, GenRad, Inc., Mail Stop 98, Route 117, Bolton, MA 01740
mcewan@uiucdcs.UUCP (mcewan ) (02/27/84)
#R:bolton:-16200:uiucdcs:31600045:000:907
uiucdcs!mcewan Feb 26 12:26:00 1984
A well-placed kick can be very effective. In the 1840's, a famous ballet
dancer, Fanny Ellsler, was touring the U.S. She was performing in
Washington, DC (where Congress adjourned its sessions so members could see
her dance). An attacker confronted her; she responded with a grand
battement, the high ballet kick that normally reaches up to the dancer's
shoulder level at a minimum. In this case, it ended in the attacker's rib
cage, and he died a few days later.
/* ---------- */
I imagine that a ballet dancer can kick a lot harder than the average
person. I don't think I could even kick as high as an attacker's rib
cage, and even if I did it would be so slow that he/she could easily
avoid it. Aiming for the knees might work, though.
The opinions expressed are my own and not
necessarily those of any sane person.
Scott McEwan
pur-ee!uiucdcs!mcewannorskog@fortune.UUCP (Lance Norskog) (02/29/84)
"Aiming for the knees might work, though".
My karate instructor once said, "Don't break someone's knees unless you
kill him afterward. Busted knees never work the same afterward, and
he'll probably come after you with a gun years later."
Lance C. Norskog
Fortune Systems, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive, Redwood City, CA
{cbosgd,hpda,harpo,sri-unix,amd70,decvax!ihnp4,allegra}!fortune!norskogbae@fisher.UUCP (The Master of Sinanju) (03/25/84)
<In Nomine Patris...>
Here is my promised article on self-defense. I do not claim to
have presented a definitive set of responses, so please, no flames...
First, I will present 10 ad-hoc rules for survival culled from
all of your own responses, as well as my own experience:
1) FIGHT DIRTY
You are not fighting for prizes. Use any advantage which
presents itself. If there is something nearby which you
can use to hit or throw at your attacker, use it. Even
a hatpin or a magazine can make formidable weapons, if
used with zeal. Your attacker has chosen you as a VICTIM,
because he thought he could dominate you. Don't let him.
Get mad, and be prepared to fight with all of your power/skill.
2) ATTACK EYES/THROAT/GROIN AS YOUR PRIMARY TARGETS
Unless you are a skilled combatant, you had best stick with these
simpler targets. A strong blow to any of these areas can kill
or disable the most formidable attacker. Don't try any come-along
or restraint tactics, unless you are very skilled in their use,
because their use puts you in danger. You are fighting for your
life, kill.
3) DON'T BE DEFENSIVE, ATTACK THE ATTACKER!
Again, a passive defense will not do you any good, unless you are
skilled. Take control of the fight from your attacker. All the
dodging and blocking in the world will not render your attacker
unable to harm you.
4) USE SIMPLE TECHNIQUES
This is most important. Don't try some fancy trick learned in
a dojo, and practiced once or twice. Use only the simplest of
techniques, executed ruthlessly and with power. Learn one good
low kick, and one good punch, and practice.
5) DON'T TALK, BLUFF, OR THREATEN
If the situation arises, before anything has happened, say simply
"I don't want any trouble." If you say this properly, often you
can avoid a fight. However, if you are in a serious situation,
there is nothing to be said. Atack your attacker immediately.
Any warnings from you will only be taken as a sign of amateurism,
or will cause his attack to be even more fierce.
6) EXPECT TO GET HURT
There is no way you can expect to fight someone who may be more
experienced, stronger, etc. than you, and come away unharmed. The
only thing you can do is prevent fatal injuries. Guard your vital
areas, and close and destroy your attacker. If he is a knife-
wielder, you can expect to get cut up, but cuts on the arms and legs
not serious. Protect your throat, chest and stomach. If you are
fighting someone without a weapon, avoid injuries to your head and
your legs (if your legs are damaged, the fight is over for you).
Don't be afraid to be hurt.
7) KEEP IN SHAPE
What more can be said?
8) BE ALERT
Always be aware of the possibility of attack, even though you
are in what you think is a 'safe place'. There is no such
thing as a safe place. All of your skill, all of your power
all of your training, will come to nought if you are taken by
surprise. You don't have to be paranoid, just use common sense.
If you are walking alone at night, DON'T walk in dark, isolated
places. Why take chances? If you are on the subway at night,
STAND. Keep your hands free, and in front of you. Always be
aware of your environment.
9) DON'T LET YOUR ATTACKER GET YOU ON THE GROUND
Even if you are expert at judo or some other grappling technique,
going to the ground and wrestling with your attacker is stupid. If
you have him on the ground, finish him off with kicks to the temple
and kidneys. If you are not on your feet, you cannot run. If there
are multiple attackers, and you are down, you have just lost.
10) VISUALIZE
Devote sevral minutes a day to imagining your responses to attacks.
There are not an infinite number of possible attacks, and if you are
prepared for the common ones, you are much more likely to withstand an
assault. The most common attacks are grabs, punches, charges, bearhugs,
headlocks, etc. By visualizing the use of the basic techniques that
you know, your are increasing your level of preparedness. This could
save your life.
Keep in mind always that you are in a potentially deadly situation
whenever you are attacked. You do not know what your attacker is going
to do to you. He has chosen you to attack because he believes that
you are somehow vulnerable. Something in your appearance, whether
your dress, your carriage, or what have you, triggered some feeling
of superiority in him. As far as he is concerned, he has already beat
you. Use this. Attack him immediately, or act somehow. Scream, run,
whatever. DO SOMETHING! If he closes with you while you are still
unalert, you have lost all.
Although the streets may look safe, always be alert and prepared, for
there are animals walking our cities these days. I shall present an
example which will sufficiently encourage you to be alert (hopefully):
The man who has instructed me for 12 years, who has trained in
kung-fu since the age of four, was at a fair in Southern California.
He had been having a good time, seeing exhibits, eating, riding rides,
etc, etc. all day, and was somewhat tired and unalert. It was somewhat
late in the day. He mistakenly turned down a blocked-off passage between
two exhibits, and walked 20-30 yards before he realized his mistake.
Upon turning around, he found that there was a large (~245lb) man
blocking the way out, who was moving towards him quite quickly. You
must understand that my sifu is about 5'2" and 130lbs. The
approaching man ran straight at him, and delivered a punch. My sifu
blocked the punch, and stepped back, being a peaceful man. The
attacker continued to attack. My sifu broke his arm. The man continued.
My sifu broke his other arm. The man attacked again. My sifu broke his
rib-cage, puncturing a lung. The man continued to attack. My sifu
broke both his legs, and kicked him in the groin. The man continued to
attack, even with all of these injuries. My sifu was forced to break
his neck, paralyzing him rather than killing him , fortunately(??)
When the police arrived, and the man was taken to the hospital, my sifu was
informed that he had been very high on PCP, and probably had not felt
any of the crippling blows he recieved. Had my sifu not been able to
fight as well as he could, he certainly would have been killed. HOWEVER,
HAD HE BEEN ALERT, IT NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED!! He has not yet forgiven
himself for being so stupid.
ALWAYS BE ALERT, AND AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS! This is the most
important thing you can do, even if you do nothing else.
Be careful out there.
--
Brian A. Ehrmantraut
Ad Maioram Gloriam Hasturi!
{ihnp4, decvax, ucbvax}!allegra!fisher!baeix192@sdccs6.UUCP (03/26/84)
[] Um. I would have greatly prefered if you had put some sort of loose definition or destription on "the attacker". I was seeing my girlfriend doing that to me as I was trying to fit her underwear on her teddy bear!!! Telling stories like the one about your instructor won't do much to help people, except to over-boost their self-confidence in martial arts. Unless you're REALLY good (as in black belt, quick reflexes, somewhat strong with good endurance) all a stronger attacker has to do is grab you. Then, unless you can paralyze (long enough for you get loose) you're as good as helpless. You also forgot one important thing - hit and run. Perhaps you taught never to do that in your dojo, but unless the woman is in very good shape, she'll start tiring out trying to overcome her attacker, especially if he's a big guy with an endurance for pain. Once the man is somewhat retreating, RUN!!! Don't try to fight it out toe-to-toe. Once you see a chance to leave, back out, keeping an eye on the guy if possible or if you can't run (heels, tight skirt), taking a mad dash if you can. But judge your own circumstances. If the safetly of a crowded street is twenty yards away, go for it. If you're in the middle of a four-mile construction area, perhaps it would be better if finish the man off if it looks quite possible. BUT!!! Save finishing off the uneven fight as the last choice. You don't get brownie points for finishing off the guy, either. Escaping unscathed is almost all that counts. Also (now we're really technical here), strength is not so important as the point of contact of your blows. Depending on what you want to cause (pain, damage, disablement) there are a lot of nerve centers to choose from. Places on your body that hurt when you press hard will cause pain when you hit them. Places that will ache for long periods (as in your funny bone, front of neck, groin/crotch) will do some disabling. For damage you can either aim for organs or to crack/break bones. Bone damage takes force, so scratch that unless you want to trade broken bone for broken bone. Use a large, bony surface area (like elbows, fists, knees) to do this. Pain, on the other hand, the smaller the hitting surface, the better - it increases the force placed on the point of contact tremendously! Hit with the knuckles only when using your fists, jab with three (slightly bent) fingers at an eye or neck. High-heeled shoes are great for this! A hard kick with a well-placed heel into the back of a knee or into the instep of a foot should pretty much give you a leisurely stroll back to safety. Hitting on the vulnerable parts of the legs will disable the guy, making your walk to safety only have to be faster than a crawl. Taking martial arts isn't really a guarantee of safety unless you become to the level of a black-belt, and have gone through several tournaments. It does a lot of good to know how to fight. I never had any fights growing up, but in my last few years of high school I went to a Tae Kwondo school and came out with a second in our school tournament. However, martial arts are not a guarantee of invulnerablilty, and I'd rather just get out of a fight, even with a one-on-one. I've never had a real one yet, but it seems to me there are better things to do than feed your ego with someon else's body. And fighting one's way out is a heck of a lot easier than trying to finish someone off. Back to the whole reason I started this article, do a HIT AND RUN. I'm just waiting for someone to get mugged by a Marial Arts student! Finished with my (phew!) 1,521 bits, Kenn the Kenf ...!sdcsvax!kenn ...!sdcsvax!sdccs6!ix192 ...!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!kenn
ix192@sdccs6.UUCP (03/27/84)
[] Um. I would have greatly prefered if you had put some sort of loose definition or destription on "the attacker". I was seeing my girlfriend attacking me your way as I was trying to fit her underwear on her teddy bear!!! Telling stories like the one about your instructor won't do much to help people, except to over-boost their self-confidence in martial arts. Unless you're REALLY good (as in black belt, quick reflexes, somewhat strong with good endurance) all a stronger attacker has to do is grab you. Then, unless you can paralyze (long enough for you get loose) you're as good as helpless. You also forgot one important thing - hit and run. Perhaps you taught were never to do that in your dojo, but unless the woman is in very good shape, she'll start tiring out trying to overcome her attacker, especially if he's a big guy with an endurance for pain. Once the man is somewhat retreating, RUN!!! Don't try to fight it out toe-to-toe. Once you see a chance to leave, back out, keeping an eye on the guy if possible or if you can't run (heels, tight skirt), taking a mad dash if you can. But judge your own circumstances. If the safetly of a crowded street is twenty yards away, go for it. If you're in the middle of a four-mile construction area, perhaps it would be better if finish the man off if it looks quite possible. BUT!!! Save finishing an uneven fight as a last choice. You don't get brownie points for finishing off the guy, either. Escaping unscathed is almost all that counts. Also (now we're really technical here), strength is not so important as the point of contact of your blows. Depending on what you want to cause (pain, damage, disablement) there are a lot of nerve centers to choose from. Places on your body that hurt when you press hard will cause pain when you hit them. Places that will ache for long periods (as in your funny bone, front of neck, groin/crotch) will do some disabling. For damage you can either aim for organs or to crack/break bones. Bone damage takes force, so skip that unless you want to trade broken bone for broken bone. Use a large, bony surface area (like elbows, fists, knees) to do break things. Pain, on the other hand, the smaller the hitting surface, the better - it increases the force placed on the point of contact tremendously! Hit with the knuckles only when using your fists, jab with three (slightly bent) fingers at an eye or neck. High-heeled shoes are great for this! A hard kick with a well- placed heel into the back of a knee or into the instep of a foot should pretty much give you a leisurely stroll back to safety. Hitting on the vulnerable parts of the legs will disable the attacker, making your walk to safety only have to be faster than a crawl. BUT taking martial arts isn't a slight guarantee of safety unless you become to the level of a black-belt, and have gone through several tournaments. It does a lot of good to know how to fight. I never had any fights growing up, but in my last few years of high school I went to a Tae Kwondo school and came out with a second in our school tournament. I don't feel safe in dark alleys reguardless, and avoid them. Martial arts are not a guarantee of invulnerablilty, especially in this day and age of modern weapons, and I'd rather just get out of a fight, even with a fair one-on-one. I've never had a real fight yet, but it seems to me there are better things to do than feed your ego with someon else's bruised body. Fighting one's way out is a heck of a lot easier than trying to finish someone off. The whole reason I started this article anyway!! Do a HIT AND RUN. I'm just waiting for someone to get mugged by a Marial Arts student! Finished with my (phew!) 1,521 bits, Kenn the Kenf ...!sdcsvax!kenn ...!sdcsvax!sdccs6!ix192 ...!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!kenn
liberte@uiucdcs.UUCP (04/27/84)
#R:fisher:-9800:uiucdcs:31600063:000:257 uiucdcs!liberte Apr 13 23:22:00 1984 <for the screaming yellow zonkers> Here's a good one that helped a friend of mine out of a tight spot: SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAM It builds Chi too. Daniel LaLiberte, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
mom@sftri.UUCP (M.Modig) (12/22/84)
>> I retract my last sentence, and will instead propose a better >> solution: Take a self-defense class. This will not only help against >> an actual attack, it will increase your self-confidence and thereby lessen >> your fears (if you have them) of the possibility of attack. Not a complete >> solution to the problem, I agree, but better than replacing constant >> fear with constant anger. >> > >BOO, HIIISSSSSS. NO, this is a well-meaning but very *bad* suggestion. >Self-defense classes can be grossly simplified to 2 forms: formal martial >arts classes and rape-defense classes. Neither of these are a good idea. > > 1. Formal martial arts classes require alot of practice and much > dedication.... OK, strike one against the martial arts. > > 2. Many formal martial arts classes will leave you totally unprepared > to deal with an actual combat situation. I speak from experience. > I was lucky enough to have trained in an "old world" okinawian > school when I first started the martial arts. They knew how to > prepare one for actual combat! Sparring was *real* in that > school! You knew what it was like to give a real punch or kick > and what it was like to receive one and still continue fighting. > (My broken arm and countless bruises lay testiment to the realness > of the sparring!). Since then I have been in and out of about > 6 or 7 other schools and I know for a fact that a very small > percent of these people could ever actually defend themselves > against anything more threatening than a 4 year old kid with a > butter knife. > > At one school they believed in "no contact" sparring. There was > a woman there that was trying to "learn how to defend herself" > and when she sparred she had her hands at her side and she lead > with her jaw. And this woman was almost a black belt!!!!!! > OK, pray continue. > 3. Rape classes aren't workable for reason #2 also but in addition > they have the tendancy to be inappropriately *ruthless*. They > take the attitude that the only way that a woman can defend > herself is by maiming or killing her attacker!!! They think > nothing of teaching ineffably dangerous techniques to be used > as a first defense without qualifying who they teach it to or > providing a moral paradigm. This is *HORRIBLY* immoral and > irresponsible!!!! In prior days such teachers would have been > hunted out and discipled or killed by more "responsible" masters. > > >It is perfectly obvious that a problem exists here but in the search for >a defense against animals, please do not become as bad if not worse than they. I don't think using every means in your power to defend yourself when you are attacked is ruthless. You have no idea what the attacker is after. He may just want to beat you up a bit and take your money; he may want much more. He may actually want to kill you. Since in most cases the person attacked doesn't have the time to precisely ascertain the attacker's goals, I see no problem with assuming the worst and basing your defense on that assumption. It would be great if we all had the time, skill, dedication, and discipline to take a real martial-arts class. Unfortunately, this is not the case. I don't know too many 90 year-old black belts stumping around town. What is needed are simple techniques that are pretty certain to be effective. I'm sure that there are other fairly simple techniques that could easily be used against a typical attacker that would be guaranteed fatal if you connected. Which of these techniques are taught. I'm not particularly in favor of using techniques that will kill someone; I'm not against using techniques that will disable your attacker to enable you to get away and get yourself out of trouble without counting on help from anyone else, since you may not be attacked during the day when there are people around. If your attacker is a black belt, you're probably out of luck either way. If there are techniques which you feel shouldn't be used, what are they and why? [I've never been to a self-defense class, and I'm not an unarmed combat expert]. Mark Modig ihnp4!sftri!mom
jps@stcvax.UUCP (Jeff Snover) (01/05/85)
>Please excuse my bloodthirstiness, but if I am being attacked, I will most >certainly do my best to stop my attacker. If I must maim or kill him/her, >that's the way it goes. My "moral paradigm" is protecting myself. If, in >the process of doing so, I have to be "immoral and irresponsible", I will. >I think attacking someone is "immoral and irresponsible" also. >If I have to act like an animal to defend myself against an animal, dammit, >I'm going to do so!!! What do you suggest? That I simply shouldn't fight >my attacker because I'm so much better morrally than they are? Wonderful. >I can die superior. Excuse me if that isn't a great comfort to me. Your view of the situation is obviously obstructed by the lower end of your digestive path. Your logic is similar to some graffitti that I saw at the University of Colorado: "Murder all Rapists!". If that is your attitude then I hope your karma is realized - for what you put out is what you will get. -- Chapter-11/Multiple-Mega-Layoff Survivor (for now...) Jeffrey P. Snover - STC StorageTek (Disk Division) uucp: { ihnp4, decvax}!stcvax!jps { allegra, amd70, ucbvax }!nbires!stcvax!jps USnail: Storage Technology Corp - MD 3T / Louisville, CO / 80028 DDD: (303) 673-6750
barry@mit-eddie.UUCP (Mikki Barry) (01/06/85)
You really mean to tell us that if someone was threatening your life, you would take whatever physical and/or mental abuse this being had to offer to satisfy your karma?!? How touching. Also, how difficult to believe. I also thought I would not fight back. Then I was attacked, and thank whatever gods you choose to believe in that I had enough self defense training to disable the attacker and get away. Believe me, I did not enjoy it, and hope I never have to do it again. I also hope Lauri never finds herself in a position where whe has to defend herself against an attacker. How you, with your talk of karma can wish anything but good for other people, is indeed a violation of your own karma. You get back what you put out, right?
rohn@randvax.UUCP (Laurinda Rohn) (01/06/85)
> >from Lauri Rohn (me) > >Please excuse my bloodthirstiness, but if I am being attacked, I will most > >certainly do my best to stop my attacker. If I must maim or kill him/her, > >that's the way it goes. My "moral paradigm" is protecting myself. If, in > >the process of doing so, I have to be "immoral and irresponsible", I will. > >I think attacking someone is "immoral and irresponsible" also. > > >If I have to act like an animal to defend myself against an animal, dammit, > >I'm going to do so!!! What do you suggest? That I simply shouldn't fight > >my attacker because I'm so much better morrally than they are? Wonderful. > >I can die superior. Excuse me if that isn't a great comfort to me. > > from Jeffrey P. Snover > Your view of the situation is obviously obstructed by the lower end > of your digestive path. Thank you for this wonderfully constructive piece of criticism. > Your logic is similar to some graffitti that I > saw at the University of Colorado: "Murder all Rapists!". If that is > your attitude then I hope your karma is realized - for what you put out > is what you will get. And where did I say this? That I would like to kill all rapists? I said nothing of the sort. Please be more careful in your interpretation of what others say. What I did say is that I would defend myself if attacked in any way that I possibly could. Have you a better suggestion? Lauri rohn@rand-unix.ARPA ..decvax!randvax!rohn
isis@utzoo.UUCP (n) (01/07/85)
jps@stcvax.UUCP (Jeff Snover) quotes and comments: > >Please excuse my bloodthirstiness, but if I am being attacked, I will most > >certainly do my best to stop my attacker. If I must maim or kill him/her, > >that's the way it goes. My "moral paradigm" is protecting myself. If, in > >the process of doing so, I have to be "immoral and irresponsible", I will. > >I think attacking someone is "immoral and irresponsible" also. > > >If I have to act like an animal to defend myself against an animal, dammit, > >I'm going to do so!!! What do you suggest? That I simply shouldn't fight > >my attacker because I'm so much better morrally than they are? Wonderful. > >I can die superior. Excuse me if that isn't a great comfort to me. > > Your view of the situation is obviously obstructed by the lower end > of your digestive path. Your logic is similar to some graffitti that I > saw at the University of Colorado: "Murder all Rapists!". If that is > your attitude then I hope your karma is realized - for what you put out > is what you will get. > Lauri stated that she is prepared to protect her life! I don't think that an attacker is too worried about the their attitude, or the potential harm to their own karma. I concede that people do think with a "gut reaction", in such circumstances but I hardly would call it an obstruction. The logic of the situation is: 1) I want to live. 2) I must maximize the avenues that allow me to live. 3) I will use what ever necessary to ensure points 1 and 2. If the rapist dies as a result of a women's survial (be it trained or instinct), sobeit. -- --------- Bill McLean @ Ont. Ministry of Health {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry
crs@lanl.ARPA (01/07/85)
> > >Please excuse my bloodthirstiness, but if I am being attacked, I will most > >certainly do my best to stop my attacker. If I must maim or kill him/her, > >that's the way it goes. My "moral paradigm" is protecting myself. If, in > >the process of doing so, I have to be "immoral and irresponsible", I will. > >I think attacking someone is "immoral and irresponsible" also. > > >If I have to act like an animal to defend myself against an animal, dammit, > >I'm going to do so!!! What do you suggest? That I simply shouldn't fight > >my attacker because I'm so much better morrally than they are? Wonderful. > >I can die superior. Excuse me if that isn't a great comfort to me. > > Your view of the situation is obviously obstructed by the lower end > of your digestive path. Your logic is similar to some graffitti that I > saw at the University of Colorado: "Murder all Rapists!". If that is > your attitude then I hope your karma is realized - for what you put out > is what you will get. > > -- > Chapter-11/Multiple-Mega-Layoff Survivor (for now...) > > Jeffrey P. Snover - STC StorageTek (Disk Division) *** OH REALLY! *** Jeffrey, I'm sorry but *your* attitude makes me puke. Just where the hell do you get off castigating someone for being willing to defend herself from attack by any means at her disposal? It is attitudes such as yours that encourage murderers, rapist, muggers and the like to ply their trade at their wim. If it turns *you* on to lie back, turn the other cheek and allow *your* attacker to have his/her way with *you* that is fine. BUT, don't you *dare* spout that holier-than-thou bullshit to someone who is willing to accept a degree of responsibility for her own safety. Charlie
jps@stcvax.UUCP (Jeff Snover) (01/07/85)
my comment: > Your logic is similar to some graffitti that I > saw at the University of Colorado: "Murder all Rapists!". Lauri's reply: >And where did I say this? That I would like to kill all rapists? I >said nothing of the sort. Please be more careful in your interpretation >of what others say. What I did say is that I would defend myself if >attacked in any way that I possibly could. I didn't say that you said this, I said "Your logic is similar". Honest! If you don't believe me, look above. Lauri's original comment: > >Please excuse my bloodthirstiness, but if I am being attacked, I will most > >certainly do my best to stop my attacker. If I must maim or kill him/her, > >that's the way it goes. > > >If I have to act like an animal to defend myself against an animal, dammit, > >I'm going to do so!!! I humbly submit that Lauri's logic (and lack thereof) is indeed very similar to the grafitti at CU. Lauri, it seems perfectly obvious, even to the most casual observer, that you comments came from your own private emotional chaos and not your brain (I certainly hope your brain is more capable than this). Your best bet is to plead temporary insanity and then shut up. -- Chapter-11/Multiple-Mega-Layoff Survivor (for now...) Jeffrey P. Snover - STC StorageTek (Disk Division) uucp: { ihnp4, decvax}!stcvax!jps { allegra, amd70, ucbvax }!nbires!stcvax!jps USnail: Storage Technology Corp - MD 3T / Louisville, CO / 80028 DDD: (303) 673-6750
js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (01/08/85)
I ended up deleting ALL of the previous article, as we've all seen what Lauri
origionally said now and I didn't want to sully my follow up with any of
Snover's unjustified attack.
The bottom line of Snover's origional and second article, though, is that
he admits that he is far too stupid to see the difference between:
1.) I'm willing to use whatever force necessary to defend myself
against a rapist.
2.) Kill all rapists.
Far from attempting to hide his ignorance, the man revels in it! He also
goes on to make some personally insulting remarks to Lauri, for no apparent
reason.
Unless he shows us that he is not a "*" very soon, I guess I'll just have
to put him on my automatic 'n' list, along with the few other net-persons
who have achieved this feat.
Sorry for the high degree of flaming on net.women, everyone, but I just
couldn't let Snover's article pass by me without torching it.
--
Jeff Sonntag
ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j
"Step right up, get your free TANSTAAFL!"sunny@sun.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) (01/09/85)
> Jeffrey P. Snover - STC StorageTek (Disk Division)
Hey, back off, ... this ain't net.flame
--
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunnybarry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) (01/09/85)
[] From stcvax!jps (Jeffrey P. Snover): >>Please excuse my bloodthirstiness, but if I am being attacked, I will most >>certainly do my best to stop my attacker. If I must maim or kill him/her, >>that's the way it goes. My "moral paradigm" is protecting myself. If, in >>the process of doing so, I have to be "immoral and irresponsible", I will. >>I think attacking someone is "immoral and irresponsible" also. > >>If I have to act like an animal to defend myself against an animal, dammit, >>I'm going to do so!!! What do you suggest? That I simply shouldn't fight >>my attacker because I'm so much better morrally than they are? Wonderful. >>I can die superior. Excuse me if that isn't a great comfort to me. > >Your view of the situation is obviously obstructed by the lower end >of your digestive path. Your logic is similar to some graffitti that I >saw at the University of Colorado: "Murder all Rapists!". If that is >your attitude then I hope your karma is realized - for what you put out >is what you will get. What does your gratuitously insulting response have to do with the article you quoted? No one suggested vigilante action against rapists, just defense against an actual attack. As someone (Ed Hall?) pointed out, it does take judgment to know the best method of handling an attack. Every situation is different; in some cases, running away might be the best idea. BUT - *if* your life is threatened by a physical attack, and if resistance seems the best course of action, do whatever it takes to be *sure* you've stopped the creep. And if that means killing him, so be it. It is foolish to bluff, or to look for minimax solutions when someone is threatening your life. Someone in the act of trying to rape a woman has thrown away, for that moment, all rights to consideration of his well-being. For the intended victim, there is only one consideration - finding a method of stopping him that works. - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry SOURCE: ST7891
tracy@hcrvx1.UUCP (Tracy Tims) (01/09/85)
I humbly submit that Lauri's logic (and lack thereof) ...
[your (Lauri's)] comments came from your own private emotional chaos
and not your brain (I certainly hope your brain is more capable than
this). Your best bet is to plead temporary insanity and then shut up.
Jeffrey P. Snover - STC StorageTek (Disk Division) stcvax!jps
I humbly submit that your postings on the matter have been the most insulting
that I have seen in a while. At the same time you manage to sound faintly
superior to the rest of us. FYI, Lauri makes more sense than you do, and
she is politer about it. If you want to disagree with someone about an issue,
or if you want to claim someone is using faulty reasoning, you cannot just
use proof by invective. You must offer evidence.
You go into my automatic 'n' file. Congratulations.
Tracy Tims {linus,allegra,decvax}!watmath!...
Human Computing Resources Corporation {ihnp4,utzoo}!...
Toronto, Ontario, Canada. 416 922-1937 ...hcr!hcrvx1!tracyrohn@randvax.UUCP (Laurinda Rohn) (01/09/85)
> >Jeffrey Snover: > > Your logic is similar to some graffitti that I > > saw at the University of Colorado: "Murder all Rapists!". > > >Lauri's original comment: > >Please excuse my bloodthirstiness, but if I am being attacked, I will most > >certainly do my best to stop my attacker. If I must maim or kill him/her, > >that's the way it goes. > > > >If I have to act like an animal to defend myself against an animal, dammit, > >I'm going to do so!!! > >I humbly submit that Lauri's logic (and lack thereof) is indeed very similar >to the grafitti at CU. I still don't see why you think my logic (or lack thereof :-) ) is similar to said graffiti. (But then I wouldn't, since I'm not logical, oui? :-) ) Perhaps you, since you seem to think your logic superior to mine, could assist me and post a detailed explanation of why you believe this to be so. > Lauri, it seems perfectly obvious, even to the most >casual observer, that you comments came from your own private emotional chaos >and not your brain (I certainly hope your brain is more capable than this). I certainly don't have a private emotional chaos. I *share* my emotional chaos. :-) >Your best bet is to plead temporary insanity and then shut up. Believe me, JS, I'll give this suggestion all the consideration it deserves. At any rate, you still haven't answered my question. You don't seem to think a woman should defend herself if attacked. What *do* you suggest? Lauri rohn@rand-unix.ARPA ..decvax!randvax!rohn "Be careful what you ask for; you might get it."
gail@calmasd.UUCP (Gail B. Hanrahan) (01/09/85)
I agree with Lauri -- if someone attacks me, I will defend
myself to whatever degree necessary. How many other net.women
readers agree with this illogical (in Snover's terms) attitude?
Gail Bayley Hanrahan {ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail
Calma Company, San Diegosrm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian) (01/11/85)
In article <219@calmasd.UUCP> gail@calmasd.UUCP (Gail B. Hanrahan) writes: > >I agree with Lauri -- if someone attacks me, I will defend >myself to whatever degree necessary. Recently my wife and I were in London, where we saw the play Extremities. Helen Mirren played the key role -- a role that Farah Fawcett played on Broadway. The play is billed as being about an attempted rape, and without spoiling it for those of you who haven't seen it, I can say that the play examines what happens to a woman who successfully defends herself. We both thought it was really good. We had considered it as one of many things we might do in London, but what cinched it was a relatively violent encounter with a purse-snatcher in Trafalgar Square on New Year's Eve (actually early New Year's Day). Despite the fact that we recovered the purse intact, my wife had a really hard time dealing with her feelings about having her purse taken from her in a vigorous struggle with a young black man. Seeing Extremities really helped. -- Richard Mateosian {allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!srm nsc!srm@decwrl.ARPA
nap@druxo.UUCP (Parsons) (01/11/85)
<< Words that I don't consider worth repeating, from...
<<
<< Jeffrey P. Snover - STC StorageTek (Disk Division) stcvax!jps
<
<I humbly submit that your postings on the matter have been the most insulting
<that I have seen in a while. At the same time you manage to sound faintly
<superior to the rest of us. FYI, Lauri makes more sense than you do, and
<she is politer about it. If you want to disagree with someone about an issue,
<or if you want to claim someone is using faulty reasoning, you cannot just
<use proof by invective. You must offer evidence.
<
<You go into my automatic 'n' file. Congratulations.
<
< Tracy Tims {linus,allegra,decvax}!watmath!...
Tracy, you are to be congratulated on your ability to maintain dignity and
self-control. *Faintly superior to the rest of us*? I would have said
*like a raving megalomaniac.*
Anyway, your gentle instruction is probably more effective than my angry
reproof would have been.
He's more to be pitied...
Nancy Parsons
AT&T ISL
Denver, CO
druxo!napannab@azure.UUCP (A_Beaver) (01/11/85)
> > I agree with Lauri -- if someone attacks me, I will defend > myself to whatever degree necessary. How many other net.women > readers agree with this illogical (in Snover's terms) attitude? > Gail Bayley Hanrahan {ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail You bet I agree. Any 'PERSON' who does not look out for themselves is going to end up regretting it. There comes that day when you find your- self alone and no one to depend on but you. A Beaver
crs@lanl.ARPA (01/15/85)
> I agree with Lauri -- if someone attacks me, I will defend > myself to whatever degree necessary. How many other net.women > readers agree with this illogical (in Snover's terms) attitude? > > > > Gail Bayley Hanrahan {ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail > Calma Company, San Diego I do.
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (01/15/85)
> > Your logic is similar to some graffitti that I > > saw at the University of Colorado: "Murder all Rapists!". > > Lauri's reply: > >What I did say is that I would defend myself if > >attacked in any way that I possibly could. There's a difference between revenge and self-defense. The latter is pretty liberal under the law, for example I believe a policeman who shoots and kills someone who pointed something that looked like a gun at him has done no wrong, even if it was a toy gun or made out of a piece of soap. Revenge on the other hand is never allowed, except maybe by the state and I'm not even sure about that. > I humbly submit that Lauri's logic (and lack thereof) is indeed very similar > to the grafitti at CU. Lauri, it seems perfectly obvious, even to the most > casual observer, that you comments came from your own private emotional chaos > and not your brain (I certainly hope your brain is more capable than this). > Your best bet is to plead temporary insanity and then shut up. I think you're the one whose logic is faulty. And your manners aren't too good either. -- AMD assumes no responsibility for anything I may say here. Phil Ngai (408) 749-5790 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPA
nemo@rochester.UUCP (Wolfe) (01/22/85)
> I agree with Lauri -- if someone attacks me, I will defend > myself to whatever degree necessary. How many other net.women > readers agree with this illogical (in Snover's terms) attitude? > > Gail Bayley Hanrahan {ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail > Calma Company, San Diego Me, too. Anyone who initiates an attack on my person has just waived their rights to the consideration I give to other beings. Nemo
zubbie@wlcrjs.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (02/06/85)
[THIS REPLACEMENT CAN BE A MESSAGE ] When I was married my husband used to be gone a great deal and for the times that he was away he had purchased a pistol for me to use IF someone should break into the house. I doubt that I could have used it as it was designed but I do know that it would have made a very good club. While I am definitely non-violent I am also not stupid and I know that there are time when self-defense is the dominant issue of the instant. If someone is attacking me then they have given up any right to protection from anyting I might do to them in defense of my person. If you don't want to get hit on the head with that 357 in the bedside drawer (no bullets - never bought any ) then don't break into my house when I am there. If I cave in your skull it is YOUR own fault. ============================================================================== From the mostly vacant environment of Jeanette L. Zobjeck (ihnp4!wlcrjs!zubbie) All opinions expressed may not even be my own. ===============================================================================