nap@druxo.UUCP (Parsons) (02/16/85)
Vietri: > Nancy Parsons uses a faulty argument when she tries to explain why she feels > differently depending on whether it is male guards searching female > prisoners, or viceversa, at S.Quentin state prison. > > First, she claims that security, not privacy, should be the overriding > concern on the issue. Then, she says that women are more threatened by men > than the viceversa. > >> First, I think that felons *should* lose many of their rights, including >> the right of privacy, when it interferes with security. > >> However, it seems worth noting that female prisoners searched by male >> guards are likely to experience a greater sense of being threatened than >> when the roles are reversed. > > Obviously, the two things are contradictory. Either security prevails, > in which case body searches by guards of any sex are permitted on prisoners > of any sex, or the dignity of the prisoners should be protected even within > the relatively secure confines of the prison. Even if she prefers security, > one may notice that the prisoners were NOT objecting to body searches per se, > but only to who was performing such body searches. Parsons: There is no contradiction between believing that felons should lose their rights and feeling that some people, even some groups of people, will suffer more from such a loss than others. Vietri: > I of course side with the preservation of dignity even in these > confines, which is in line, of course, with what is explicitly stated in the > constitution. In this case, though, NP still makes a strange claim > when she says... > >> ... female prisoners searched by male >> guards are likely to experience a greater sense of being threatened than >> when the roles are reversed. > > This is certainly true, but why should YOU decide how really > threatened and humiliated men feel in these situation? Why should > the fact that women feel humiliated under these (or different) conditions ... > >> Women experience different levels of anxiety and self-doubt than men do >> when they receive promotions, get married or divorced, are searched by >> members of the opposite sex... > > imply that men do not, or should not? In general, I believe whoever > tells that s/he feels humiliated, because it is their feelings, their freedoms, Parsons: Oh, please...I did not mean to suggest that *I* was deciding how "really threatened and humiliated" men feel, only that is is likely (there are more instances of women being raped by men than men by women) that women, in general, probably feel it more than men, in general. > their personal dignity that are being humiliated, not mine. > The simple statement that somebody feels humiliated is sufficient ground, > for me, to take that person seriously. > > At the same time, I do expect everybody else to feel the same the way, > and it is exactly this that is disturbing in Nancy Parsons' letter: the > presumption that she has a right to say whose claims to privacy are > justified and whose are not. Oh, come now...surely I claimed no such right, except to say that, in my opinion, *all* felons should lose certain rights. To say that some people, or groups of people, probably feel it more than others is not to suggest that I wish to say that some are justified in their feelings and others are not! Of course, they are all justified in their feelings. And I think that they should be treated the same way. But I still think that women, in general, will feel more threatened in this particular situation, than men. > The episode per se is slightly irrelevant, > given also that we have neglected the conflict between prisoners' > rights and affirmative action. > >> Women experience different levels of anxiety and self-doubt than men do >> when they receive promotions, get married or divorced, are searched by >> members of the opposite sex... > > Quite true, but what does this have to do with my feelings when it > is me who is being body-searched? Unfortunately for us men, and as every > black, chicano, mexican man can easily attest, women do not have > the monopoly on humiliation. Parsons: Yes, I know. And I sincerely apologize for anything in my posting that suggested otherwise. Perhaps it would have been clearer if I had said that any group who have historically been dominated by any other group is likely to feel more threatened in such a situation, and that exchanging these various groups in the original article would make a difference in how I *feel* about the situation--which is not to say that it makes a difference in what I think should be done as a result. Nancy Parsons AT&T ISL