anne@digi-g.UUCP (Anne Chenette) (02/12/85)
(* WARNING: WRITER IS ANGRY, SO THE FOLLOWING MAY SEEM NOT UNLIKE A FLAME *) I was reading through a story in net.jokes today, and choked on the following sentence: His people spent a good 8 hours a day working in the fields, and then went home to their wives. Since when are wives not people???? Why is this attitude so common? (I remember reading in my Social Studies text books about "the pioneers and their wives" - it always made me furious.) I'm shocked to see this in 1985 - I had hoped that this sexist manipulation of English had died out in the 60's. This is not merely a linguistic matter - it is insidious, unconscious sexism. I don't know the gender of the writer, but I must assume that it was male. I don't believe a female would have this attitude in her subconscience. What can be done about this terrible, sexist attitude?? This is a more blatent version of the he/she issue. One small consolation is that solutions need not violate traditional standards of grammar :-)! Arghhhhhhhh! Anne Chenette ihnp4!umn-cs!digi-g!anne
miche@masscomp.UUCP (Harvey) (02/14/85)
> I was reading through a story in net.jokes today, and choked on the > following sentence: > His people spent a good 8 hours a day working in > the fields, and then went home to their wives. > This is not merely a linguistic matter - it is insidious, unconscious > sexism. I don't know the gender of the writer, but I must assume > that it was male. I don't believe a female would have this attitude > in her subconscience. > > Anne Chennete > ihnp4!umn-cs!digi-g!anne The sad truth is that if you tell people something about themselves, they will often come to believe it. This is one of the most insidious things about such sexist language. When faced with the assumptions behind this language, and little other evidence, vast numbers of women come to believe that they do not have the rights of people, and that this is 'right'. It was the Chinese mothers and grandmothers who bound their daughters' feet. How many women do you know, in 1985, who were told by their (very loving) mothers, that it was imperative that they be attractive to men so that they could 'capture' one to care for them? I don't know the gender of the original poster, but I don't think (unfortunately) that it can be assumed to be male. Miche Baker-Harvey Massachusetts Computer Corp. (619) 692-6200 x478
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (02/15/85)
> (* WARNING: WRITER IS ANGRY, SO THE FOLLOWING MAY SEEM NOT UNLIKE A FLAME *) > > I was reading through a story in net.jokes today, and choked on the > following sentence: > > His people spent a good 8 hours a day working in > the fields, and then went home to their wives. > > Since when are wives not people???? Would it help if I suggested that the field workers were all lesbians? (can he be serious?) No, I thought not. But remember that many sets which are *different* nonetheless have *large intersections*. And after all, it *was* a joke - perhaps subtler than anyone realized. Jeff Winslow
rick@uwmacc.UUCP (the absurdist) (02/17/85)
> I was reading through a story in net.jokes today, and choked on the > following sentence: > > His people spent a good 8 hours a day working in > the fields, and then went home to their wives. > > This is not merely a linguistic matter - it is insidious, unconscious > sexism. I don't know the gender of the writer, but I must assume > that it was male. I don't believe a female would have this attitude > in her subconscience. > > Anne Chennete > ihnp4!umn-cs!digi-g!anne Why? "His people" does not say that the women are not people. It says that only that the workers are male people affiliated with whoever "His" was in the joke. If you happened to refer to the people you supervise as "your people", would you be laying claim to their spouses as being under your direction as well? Discussions about "insidious, unconscious sexism" make me uneasy -- they strike me as being a good way to trivialize blatant, conscious sexism. Consider the current discussion of "comparable worth", for example: as issues go, the comp-worth issue will probably have a greater effect on sexism than the content of jokes will. An interesting book on all of this is "Language and Women's Place" by Robin Lakoff -- hard to find in shopping malls, but a perennial bestseller on college campuses. Lakoff discusses the question of how "language" and sexism interact in plain English (aside: how unusual for an academic! :-)). -- "1985: Why 1985 isn't like 1984" Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick
zubbie@wlcrjs.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (02/19/85)
It is also true that, at least for women and perhaps a little bit for men, How we dress and conduct ourselves is based on how our mothers conducted themselves and what our mothers believed was proper. A friend of mine was 30 yeasr old before she bought a pair of jeans becasue in her childhood her mother caused her to believe that jeans were only and always associated with a class of people which she had taught her duaghter to avoid at all costs. Unconsciously she had been living by that classy bit of mis-education all her life without even being aware of it. Can anyone else think of something in their personal life which is similar? Once finding something in your life which is similar can you easily overcome the conditioning you have given yourself? =============================================================================== From the mostly vacant environment of Jeanette L. Zobjeck (ihnp4!wlcrjs!zubbie) All opinions expressed may not even be my own. ===============================================================================
akl@leopard.UUCP (Anita ) (02/20/85)
> > It is also true that, at least for women and perhaps a > little bit for men, How we dress and conduct ourselves is based > on how our mothers conducted themselves and what our mothers > believed was proper. > > Can anyone else think of something in their personal life which > is similar? I agree! My mother (parents, really) taught me at an early age that "proper" meant girls didn't wear pants to school (I couldn't until 10th grade, and couldn't wear jeans until I was a senior - and then only a pair that was brand-spanking new!) and they conducted themselves with respect. In short, I wasn't allowed to "let my hair down" at all. By the time I was 16, I had already fallen into the trap of believing that this was the only "true" way to live. Looking back, I don't think I would have gone off the deep end and ended up a teen-age runaway, but I wish I had had a bit more freedom. > Once finding something in your life which is similar can you > easily overcome the conditioning you have given yourself? > Well, here it is 10 years later, and I've just begun to figure out what it is that I want to do with myself. To answer your question, IT AIN'T EASY...but it can be done. I am fortunate enough to have several good friends to whom I can talk and vent my frustrations. I am starting to organize my life the way I want it, and not the way everyone else wanted. People can overcome their own conditioning IF THEY WANT TO, and if they are willing to take a few risks. -- * From the musical keyboard of: ** * * Anita K. Laux leopard!akl * * Bell Communications Research **** 331 Newman Springs Road * * Red Bank, NJ 07701 * * ****
ariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan) (02/22/85)
> An interesting book on all of this is "Language and Women's Place" > by Robin Lakoff -- hard to find in shopping malls, but a perennial > bestseller on college campuses. Lakoff discusses the question of how > "language" and sexism interact in plain English (aside: how unusual > for an academic! :-)). > -- > "1985: Why 1985 isn't like 1984" > > Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC > 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 > {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick Oh, ho, HO! There is a good deal of controversy about Robin Lakoff's work in Linguistic circles. Seems that she didn't do much in the way of her own research, but took previous discussion of "women's language" and modified it to meet her hypotheses. There are better books on Language and Women and how Language affects Women and all them there types of theories. Unfortunately, I can't get to my copies right now to get the titles because all my books are in boxes. Just be careful about even published theories on this type of stuff, because there's always someone with a differing opinion who's book hasn't been picked up by a major printer. Check the library of your local University. Ariel (everybody's gotta put their two cents in) Shattan ..!tektronix!orca!ariels