barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Barry Gold) (01/18/85)
I've got no objection to women making their own choice of the various honorifics (Miss, Mrs., or Ms.). Usually I don't use any honorific at all: I just settle for being Lee Gold. (Or sometimes even Lee Ann Gold.) However, when I do use an honorific, I prefer to use Mrs. I've got an acquaintance who makes a decided point of addressing me face-to- face as "Ms. Gold." He loudly proclaims that he is a feminist and will never call any woman by her first name (that would be overly familiar) or by any hoorific other than "Ms." I've got another (expletive deleted) acquaintance (a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism) who insists on addressing all mail to me to "The Lady Lee Gold." No, I don't expect anyone to come up with an answer that'll change the behavior of either of these jerks. But it feels good just to mention the problem exists. (Of course, either of these things is still preferable to getting called "Mr. Lee Gold." And I was once in an amateur press association with one jerk who persisted in calling me *that* on the grounds that he found my writing style somehow intrinsically masculine and refused to believe I was female. It would be very nice if we just got an all-purpose honorific, and could dispense with this whole nonsense. --Lee Gold
srm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian) (01/20/85)
In article <1680@sdcrdcf.UUCP> barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Barry & Lee Gold) writes: >Usually I don't use any honorific at all: I just settle for being Lee Gold. >(Or sometimes even Lee Ann Gold.) >I was once in an amateur press association with one jerk who persisted in >calling me "Mr. Lee Gold." And that on the grounds >that he found my writing style somehow intrinsically masculine and refused >to believe I was female. > I have a friend whose gender is not easily inferred from her first name. She won a Rhodes Scholarship, which they took back when they discovered that she isn't a man. -- Richard Mateosian {allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!srm nsc!srm@decwrl.ARPA
sunny@sun.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) (01/21/85)
> It would be very nice if we just got an all-purpose honorific, and could > dispense with this whole nonsense. > > --Lee Gold I find that use of the first name is real nice. What's with all this "honorific" crap? If it's something you use for everyone, then how much are they honored by it? I can't tell you the battles I've had with companies, and undoubtedly, aided and abbetted by their computers, which were aided and abbetted by their programmers, who simply cannot address a standard computer generated form letter as: Dear Sunny but instead insist on using: Dear Mr./Mrs./Ms./Miss S. Kirsten. Hey, I'm not ANY of those! :-) and furthermore, my middle name is NOT nmn I have no middle name. So there. As I tell my co-workers, please call me Sunny. If you *have* to use a pronoun, please use "she". but do they listen? no. They want me to conform to *their* version of reality. But, well, nevermind. I'm tired of being labelled. -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny
edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (01/21/85)
> It would be very nice if we just got an all-purpose honorific, and could > dispense with this whole nonsense. > > --Lee Gold Why not just leave those controversial letters ``s' and ``r'' off, and use the initial ``M''? Thus: M Alice Gardner instead of Miss, Mrs, or Ms Alice Gardner M Alexander Foop instead of Mr Alexander Foop And in conversation, ``M'' would be pronounced ``missed''. :-) :-) :-) -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall P.S. I generally dispense with the horrific honorific altogether; first and last name suffice in cases where ``hey, you!'' doesn't work.
dana@gitpyr.UUCP (Dana Eckart) (01/21/85)
>I've got no objection to women making their own choice of the various >honorifics (Miss, Mrs., or Ms.). Usually I don't use any honorific at >all: I just settle for being Lee Gold. (Or sometimes even Lee Ann Gold.) I too do not use an honorific before my name, which has led to some interesting problems. Since my name is Dana, any correspondence that I receive from someone (or an organization) who has never met me feels compelled to put "Ms." in front of my name. (I'm a male) My roommates certainly get a big kick out of it! Just thought someone might be interested. (I'm suprised that Lee Gold didn't mention a similiar problem, unless of course she signs as Lee Ann Gold.) Dana Eckart
srm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian) (01/23/85)
In article <1962@sun.uucp> sunny@sun.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) writes: >I can't tell you the battles I've had with companies, >and undoubtedly, aided and abbetted by their computers, which were aided and >abbetted by their programmers, who simply cannot address a standard computer >generated form letter as: > >Dear Sunny > >but instead insist on using: > >Dear Mr./Mrs./Ms./Miss S. Kirsten. My first initial is S (from my father's name), so I often wind up on mailing lists as SR MATEOSIAN. More than once, some clever person (or program) has "politely" spelled out this honorific, so that a significant amount of computer-related junk mail comes to me addressed to Sister Mateosian -- Richard Mateosian {allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!srm nsc!srm@decwrl.ARPA
mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) (01/24/85)
> > It would be very nice if we just got an all-purpose honorific, and could > > dispense with this whole nonsense. > > > > --Lee Gold > > I find that use of the first name is real nice. What's with all this > "honorific" crap? > ...... > I'm tired of being labelled. > -- > {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny I sympathize with you but don't agree. I have problems with enforced joviality in the workplace. I don't particularly like having relative strangers (I keep my social and professional lives carefully separate) calling me by my first name. Since being referred to by the last name has abrupt and rude connatations in American cultures (not necessary elsewhere), why not a honorific? I agree that this does not solve the issue of letters addressed to Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms or some such, but ther is a use for honorifics: to honor someone you respect, to communicate formally with people you don't know well, etc. Marcel Simon ..!mhuxr!mfs
jc@mit-athena.ARPA (John Chambers) (01/24/85)
This would be a boring topic, except for one little problem: the double-bind that it imposes on us poor males that want to be cooperative. I mean, when I say "Mrs.", I'm an unregenerate sexist who should have used "Ms."; when I say "Ms.", I'm also wrong because she prefers the correct (read: traditional) term "Mrs." Personally, I'd just as well drop the honorifics entirely, and call everyone by his/her/their/its/your/... very own personal name. But that's hopelessly sexist, too, because women have their fathers' names imposed on them at birth.... How about this suggestion: Everyone who gets upset about being called the wrong name or title make up one of those little signs like they pass out at conventions, meetings and church socials. You know, the ones that say "Hello, I'm ________". If you'd wear it all the time, most people would cooperate and call you by whatever fills in the blank. Granted, this isn't a general solution. I can't read your sign over the network. So maybe you should take care to put the proper honorific in your signature at the end of your article, and I'll try to use it. Most of us will. Of course, there will always be unregenerates among us. We can sic Miss Manners on them when they offend. John Chambers [sic]
berry@zinfandel.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) (01/24/85)
In article <214@mhuxr.UUCP> mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) writes: >[...] I don't particularly like having relative >strangers [...] calling me by my first name. I rather agree. I have at times wandered into a random store (stereo and car stores are the worst...) and had a saleman come up and saywith a big, phony grin 'Hi, can I help you? I'm Jim, what's your name?' I usually say 'My name is "Mr. Kercheval"'. -- Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900
features@ihuxf.UUCP (M.A. Zeszutko) (01/25/85)
>From: edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) >Why not just leave those controversial letters ``s' and ``r'' off, and >use the initial ``M''? Thus: > M Alice Gardner instead of Miss, Mrs, or Ms Alice Gardner > M Alexander Foop instead of Mr Alexander Foop >And in conversation, ``M'' would be pronounced ``missed''. Mensans already do this. M Zeszutko aMAZon @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL; ihnp4!ihuxf!features "Love your self's self where it lives." -- Anne Sexton -- aMAZon @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL; ihnp4!ihuxf!features "Love your self's self where it lives." -- Anne Sexton
john@moncol.UUCP (John Ruschmeyer) (01/25/85)
>From: sunny@sun.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) >Message-ID: <1962@sun.uucp> > >I find that use of the first name is real nice. What's with all this >"honorific" crap? If it's something you use for everyone, then how much >are they honored by it? ... I find that the use of a first name is ok for equals (co-workers, etc.), but there are people for whom I feel I need to give the extra bit of distance and respect that an "honorific" gives. I am 23 years old and brought up referring to all adults as "Mr./Mrs./Miss whatever". Often, however, I will meet the parents of a friend who will introduce themselves by their first names. Frankly this discomforts me and I usually will have to apologize and fall back on the use of honorifics. Okay, so maybe I am old-fahsioned.... -- John Ruschmeyer ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john Monmouth College ...!princeton!moncol!john W. Long Branch, NJ 07764 Kirk: You ought to sell a manual of instructions with these things. Cyrano: If I did, Captain... what would happen to the search for knowledge?
zubbie@wlcrjs.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (02/05/85)
*****{[ THIS LINE IS A RE-IMBURSABLE MASSAGE ]}***
MY LOGNAME/NICKNAME/* is zubbie.
That was also my father's nickname for the 40+ years that he worked
for Western Electric, I worked there a while also and was then known
as little zubbie, is perhaps as non-gender specific as I care to get.
I also answer the phone on my desk as "ZUBBIE". People are then free
to either get on with business, now having a handle by which to communicate
with me or they can
2) Ask for me by name at which point I will glady give them
my first name so that again communication is established with little or
no friction. On the net use of the log name is so simple we hardly
ever think to much of it.ron@celerity.UUCP (Ron McDaniels) (02/14/85)
In article <539@wlcrjs.UUCP> zubbie@wlcrjs.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) writes: > MY LOGNAME/NICKNAME/* is zubbie. . . . >. . . I worked there a while also and was then known >as little zubbie, is perhaps as non-gender specific as I care to get. >I also answer the phone on my desk as "ZUBBIE". People are then free >to either get on with business, now having a handle by which to communicate >with me or they can . . . They can get on with business unless they are laughing too hard. Why? Are there any Arabs out there that would like to tell Ms. Zobjeck what a zubbie is? Thanks for such a cleverly worded article! "little zubbie", "non-gender", "having a handle". You should have cross posted to net.jokes. McD {decvax || ucbvax || ihnp4 || akgua || philabs}!sdcsvax!celerity!ron
zubbie@wlcrjs.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (02/19/85)
In article <265@celerity.UUCP> ron@celerity.UUCP ( McDaniels) writes: >In article <539@wlcrjs.UUCP> zubbie@wlcrjs.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) writes: >> MY LOGNAME/NICKNAME/* is zubbie. > . . . >>. . . I worked there a while also and was then known >>as little zubbie, is perhaps as non-gender specific as I care to get. >>I also answer the phone on my desk as "ZUBBIE". People are then free >>to either get on with business, now having a handle by which to communicate >>with me or they can . . . > >They can get on with business unless they are laughing too hard. > >Why? Are there any Arabs out there that would like to tell Ms. Zobjeck what a >zubbie is? > >Thanks for such a cleverly worded article! "little zubbie", "non-gender", "having a handle". You should have cross posted to net.jokes. > >McD > >{decvax || ucbvax || ihnp4 || akgua || philabs}!sdcsvax!celerity!ron
syslab@ihuxn.UUCP (g.v. stoneberg) (02/26/85)
> In article <265@celerity.UUCP> ron@celerity.UUCP ( McDaniels) writes: > >In article <539@wlcrjs.UUCP> zubbie@wlcrjs.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) writes: > >> MY LOGNAME/NICKNAME/* is zubbie. > > . . . > >>. . . I worked there a while also and was then known > >>as little zubbie, is perhaps as non-gender specific as I care to get. > >>I also answer the phone on my desk as "ZUBBIE". People are then free > >>to either get on with business, now having a handle by which to communicate > >>with me or they can . . . > > > >They can get on with business unless they are laughing too hard. > > > >Why? Are there any Arabs out there that would like to tell Ms. Zobjeck what a > >zubbie is? > > > >Thanks for such a cleverly worded article! "little zubbie", "non-gender", "having a handle". You should have cross posted to net.jokes. > > > >McD > > > >{decvax || ucbvax || ihnp4 || akgua || philabs}!sdcsvax!celerity!ron Somehow my part of this article never made it past the GIANT LINE EATER. To date I have followed the discussion on this topic and added several constructive, I hope, comments. There has been hardly any comment or feedback on my thoughts which is not unusual. What I do find as ironic is that the only comment to what seemed like a fair example of how to deal with the situation in a sensible and comfortable manner (one which might even increase productivity though easing of tensions and facilitiating intelligent communication) draws what I can only place in the same category with some men I have been forced to work with. The attitude is one of humor her and she will go away or perhaps maybe "She's just trying to be cute....lets patronize her and then we can get on with serious things which she is, by her nature as a woman, not able to cope with or understand. WELL **MR McD** (If you arent a male then Ill eat my hat) I want to thank you for helping me point up some of the attitudes which working women have to cope with. It is your style of ignorant behaviour and thinking which has worked to keep women down for so long. If a condescending F*RT like you feels justified in treating anyones, male or female, ideas like the tag end of a feeble joke then I really pity you. In a few more years the advances of women in the working world will have placed us on more than just an equal footing with men. Most likely women will move into the work place as full competitors judged on the merit of their work and their ability to perform the job. By these standards it is very likely that women will become the power holders of the working world. What was that old sexist/ethnic joke about the race/sex/religious persuassion of the best doctors?? Think about it. If any individual or group is forced to learn how to attain their goals the hard way the quality of those who survive is bound to be superior to the even the best of the individual or group whose path to the same objective was not nearly so festooned with hinderance. YES, I really want to thank you for being where you are because I now know that I at least will be that much better once I get where I am going because I had to do it against all that you and people like you were trying to do to keep me down. Jeanette L.Zobjeck wlcrjs! ihnp4!< >zubbie ihlpa! =========================================================================== From the Mostly Vacant Environment of Jeanette L. Zobjeck All opinions expressed are definitely my own and subject to shrinkage if washed in hot water. ==========================================================================