riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) (03/08/85)
> > > ...the clitorectomy, the removal > > > of a girl's clitoris to greatly reduce her future pleasure in sex (don't > > > want them to ahve any fun. now do we ?). This is still practiced in many > > > African and Near Eastern cultures... > > > > Does anyone know what reasons (excuses) such societies state for their > > practice of clitorectomy? > > I have heard two excuses. The first is that it reduces the probability > of adultery... I wish I had some references to back my recollection up, but I seem to recall reading about at least one area in Africa where the practice is common where the folk belief is almost exactly the opposite: clitoridectomy is held to e n h a n c e a woman's sexual pleasure, and adolescent girls are expected to go through a period of intense and promiscuous sexual activity immediately after going through the rites of passage that included clitoridectomy. Very hard to believe, I know, but that's a claim I've read. > ...The second is not so much a justification as a defense; > "This is our culture. It's none of your business." Of course, the > same can be said for burning heretics or executing political prisoners. Another way of putting it, and the argument most often followed by Western apologists for the practice, is that such an extremely arduous initiation rite is a powerful social glue that holds a tribal or other group together. These people view clitoridectomy as merely the female equivalent of the male initiation rite of adult circumcision, and usually the two are practiced together and are surrounded with similar rites and folklore. Both are acknowledged by their practitioners to be painful experiences but not to harm later sex life. As far as I know the debate is still raging between those who reject clitoridectomy as barabarous under any circumstances and those who bow to the natives' (and even the native women's) own beliefs on the matter. Since I neither have a clitoris nor a deep acquaintance with African tribal culture, I tend to plead ignorance on the subject. (All of the above, by the way, applies only to a particular variety of clitoridectomy as practiced in parts of Africa; I've never heard anyone try to justify it where it occurs as an offshoot of purdah.) --- Prentiss Riddle ("Aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada.") --- {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!riddle --- riddle@ut-sally.UUCP, riddle@ut-sally.ARPA, riddle%zotz@ut-sally
ethan@utastro.UUCP (Ethan Vishniac) (03/08/85)
> > > > ...the clitorectomy, the removal > > > > of a girl's clitoris to greatly reduce her future pleasure in sex (don't > > > > want them to ahve any fun. now do we ?). This is still practiced in many > > > > African and Near Eastern cultures... > > > > > > Does anyone know what reasons (excuses) such societies state for their > > > practice of clitorectomy? > > > > I have heard two excuses. The first is that it reduces the probability > > of adultery... > > I wish I had some references to back my recollection up, but I seem to > recall reading about at least one area in Africa where the practice is > common where the folk belief is almost exactly the opposite: clitoridectomy > is held to e n h a n c e a woman's sexual pleasure, and adolescent > girls are expected to go through a period of intense and promiscuous sexual > activity immediately after going through the rites of passage that included > clitoridectomy. Very hard to believe, I know, but that's a claim I've read. > At this point I think we do need references, or some knowledgeable netters. I think that there are various degrees of clitorectomy practiced. Perhaps some of them, like male circumcision, do not affect sexual function. Radical clitorectomy surely must. "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan *Anyone who wants to claim these opinions is welcome to them.*
ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) (03/13/85)
> At this point I think we do need references, or some knowledgeable netters. > I think that there are various degrees of clitorectomy practiced. Perhaps > some of them, like male circumcision, do not affect sexual function. Radical > clitorectomy surely must. Susan Griffin's work, and Mary Daly's, focus on clitoridectomy as one form of female mutilation (along with footbinding, hysterectomy, and witchburning). As I recall, there are differing degrees of mutilation, but all affect sexual function. Some are more permanently damaging and others more infection-prone (i.e. excise the clitoris, scrape the vulva raw, sew up the wound with palm fiber and bind the legs together till it heals -- or the girl dies from the infection...) I find it extremely difficult to believe that any clitoridectomy can *not* affect sexual pleasure, or affect it positively, considering the function of the clitoris itself. I would recommend reading Daly's book _Gyn/Ecology_ for more detail. -- Ellen
andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (James H. Andrews) (03/14/85)
In article <1073@utastro.UUCP> ethan@utastro.UUCP (Ethan Vishniac) writes: >At this point I think we do need references, or some knowledgeable netters. >I think that there are various degrees of clitorectomy practiced. Perhaps >some of them, like male circumcision, do not affect sexual function. Radical >clitorectomy surely must. I'm not an expert on the forms of clitoridectomy practiced, but I'm sure that if the operation involved only removing the clitoral hood, it would increase sexual pleasure in exactly the same manner as circumcision is supposed to. In fact the operations would be analogous as the clitoris is thought (by Shere Hite among others) to be the homologue in women of the male penis. Radical removal of the clitoris would certainly reduce pleasure as our culture defines it, but IF the so-called G-spot exists it would be possible that some cultures would place more emphasis on it than on the clitoris. (No flames on G-spot, I know Shere Hite's opinions on that one too.) --Jamie.
jss@brunix.UUCP (Judith Schrier) (03/17/85)
An interesting description of and apologia for male and female circumcision among the Kikukus of Kenya is given in "Toward Mount Kenya," by Jomo Kenyatta. It was written when he was a student of anthropology in England, and is an in-depth description of his own tribe's history and customs. Sorry I can't find my copy to give the publisher and year (I think it was published in the '40's). judith schrier brunix!jss
ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) (03/19/85)
> >ethan@utastro.UUCP (Ethan Vishniac) > >At this point I think we do need references, or some knowledgeable netters. > >I think that there are various degrees of clitorectomy practiced. Perhaps > >some of them, like male circumcision, do not affect sexual function. Radical > >clitorectomy surely must. > I'm not an expert on the forms of clitoridectomy practiced, but I'm sure that > if the operation involved only removing the clitoral hood, it would increase > sexual pleasure in exactly the same manner as circumcision is supposed to. > --Jamie. Mary Daly in Gyn/Ecology describes three types of clitoridectomy now being practiced in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, many North African nations, and some of the other Middle Eastern countries: 1) a removal of the clitoris alone; 2) removal of the clitoris and labia 3) infibulation or clitoridectomy combined with a re-sewing of the incision to decrease the size of the girl's vagina and increase male sexual pleasure. I doubt that the practitioners of clitoridectomy would be interested in removal solely of the clitoral hood, since (at least among the African nations) the clitoris is removed because contact with it is supposed to render the male possibly impotent and/or contribute to stillbirths. (Incidentally, as a woman, I doubt that removal of the clitoral hood would increase sexual pleasure. I suspect that it would cause over-sensitivity and great pain). -- Ellen
edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (03/19/85)
> I'm not an expert on the forms of clitoridectomy practiced, but I'm sure that > if the operation involved only removing the clitoral hood, it would increase > sexual pleasure in exactly the same manner as circumcision is supposed to. > In fact the operations would be analogous as the clitoris is thought (by > Shere Hite among others) to be the homologue in women of the male penis. Time for an anatomy lesson... If I remember my Master's & Johnson, the clitoral hood is essential for proper clitoral stimulation from intercourse. Perhaps removing it would increase stimulation for other forms of sexual contact--maybe excessively so. There are as many nerve endings in the tip of the clitoris as in the entire head of the penis. Many women find direct clitoral stimulation painful. (As an aside on the clitoris being a penis homologue--it is a big mistake to think of the clitoris as a ``baby penis''. Aside from having a higher density of nerve receptors in its tip, the clitoris' root has as large and as rich a blood supply as the penis--there is nothing ``undeveloped'' about it. But they are definitely homologues, and embryologically derive from the same structure.) Yes, ``female circumcision'' can consist of removing part or all of the clitoral hood, as well as being a euphemism for clitoridectomy. I'll leave it to someone more knowledgable to describe its history--it was actually practiced in this country at one time. > > Radical removal of the clitoris would certainly reduce pleasure as our culture > defines it, but IF the so-called G-spot exists it would be possible that > some cultures would place more emphasis on it than on the clitoris. (No > flames on G-spot, I know Shere Hite's opinions on that one too.) I suspect that either sex is able to find alternative pathways for sexual stimulation--personally, I think this is a good idea even for people who haven't been mutilated. But from all I've read, clitoridectomy would do the same thing to sexual pleasure as lopping off the end of the penis. > > --Jamie. -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall
hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) (04/04/85)
There is an operation (mutilation) which was practiced on males in certain primitive tribes in Africa and/or Micronesia. It consists of slitting the penis on the bottom lengthwise along the urethral canal, and is done before adolescence. It does not prevent erections, but caused the penis to spread out when erect, thus preventing intercourse. If I remember correctly from my college course in anthropology, this practice occurred mainly in matriarchical societies to limit the number of males available for families. There is also a technical name for this practice which I do not remember.
srm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian) (04/07/85)
In article <563@homxb.UUCP> hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) writes: > >There is an operation (mutilation) which was practiced on males >It consists of slitting the penis on the bottom lengthwise >this practice occurred mainly in matriarchical societies to >limit the number of males available for families. Elizabeth Gould Davis described a similar practice in "The First Sex", but she said that it was to increase the pleasure of the matriarchs. She said a lot of interesting things in that book, but I don't know how reliable they are. Incidentally, I heard on the news a year or so ago that she had killed herself at the age of 64. -- Richard Mateosian {allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!srm nsc!srm@decwrl.ARPA