clayton@satan.DEC (04/12/85)
This has been bugging me lately... Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? Elizabeth Clayton ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-satan!clayton
ed@mtxinu.UUCP (Ed Gould) (04/14/85)
> Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button > right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? > > Elizabeth Clayton The only explanation I've ever heard is this: At one time, all clothing was made the way women's clothing is now - with the right side on top. When swords became the common fighting weapon, men's clothing changed so that the right-handed fighter (and of course only men did the fighting) could draw sword with the right hand and unbotton the coat with the left simultaneously. Somehow this doesn't really seem an adequate explanation, but it's the only one I've ever heard offered that had even a little plausability. -- Ed Gould mt Xinu, 739 Allston Way, Berkeley, CA 94710 USA {ucbvax,decvax}!mtxinu!ed +1 415 644 0146
jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (04/15/85)
> This has been bugging me lately... > > Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button > right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? > Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? > > Elizabeth Clayton > ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-satan!clayton The only explanation I have ever heard for this was some mumbo-jumbo about breast-feeding which didn't make alot of sense. I mean, why should the buttons matter ? You have to get to both of them eventually. Interestingly enough, I have some shirts sized for women made by a mens' shirt manufacturer in which the buttons are on the same size as on mens' shirts. -- jcpatilla "'Get stuffed !', the Harlequin replied ..."
hansen@mips.UUCP (Craig Hansen) (04/15/85)
> Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button > right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? > Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? For one thing, it makes it easier for to work the buttons of your MOTOS's shirt/blouse when they're right in front on you. Decidedly, a nice feature, although if you're standing behind your MOTOS and reaching around to the buttons, it would be better if they were the same..... Craig Hansen decwrl!glacier!mips!hansen MIPS Computer Systems
ecl@ahutb.UUCP (e.c.leeper) (04/15/85)
Historically, men's shirts button left over right so that men could rip off their jacket with their left hand while drawing their sword with their right. (Yes, this assumes everyone was right-handed.) My guess is that women's shirts usually button right over left because when women started to wear shirts that buttoned, the religious injunction against women "wearing that which pertains to a man" was still strong (hey, that was one of the things that got Jeanne d'Arc in trouble!), so they made the buttons go the other way. These days, I've seen women's shirts that button left over right--they're usually made by companies that make men's shirts also and who have obviously decided that's it's more cost-effective to make *all* their shirts the same way. I'm also seeing more women's shirts with the breast pocket (thank goodness), so I suspect in a few years, the difference may well be historical. Evelyn C. Leeper For now, I am ...ihnp4!ahutb!ecl But, on May 1, I become ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (04/15/85)
> This has been bugging me lately... > > Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button > right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? > Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? > > Elizabeth Clayton > ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-satan!clayton Maybe it makes it easier for people of the opposite sex to unbutton each other? -- Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j "Oh no. It wasn't the airplanes. 'Twas beauty killed the beast."-King K.
srm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian) (04/15/85)
In article <1649@decwrl.UUCP> clayton@satan.DEC writes: > >Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? > Considering the usual price differential, you wouldn't want women to feel comfortable wearing men's shirts, would you? -- Richard Mateosian {allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!srm nsc!srm@decwrl.ARPA
features@ihuxf.UUCP (M.A. Zeszutko) (04/15/85)
> This has been bugging me lately... > > Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button > right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? > Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? > > Elizabeth Clayton > ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-satan!clayton Yes. Historically, women's clothing buttons/fastens on the "other side" because some women used to have maids to help them dress. It was assumed a man would button his own shirt, and that a woman would have help (logically enough, since buttons went down the back in many instances). I'm not sure why it continues today; tradition, maybe. BTW, do you know why men's suitcoats have buttons on the sleeves? Historical trivia may be answered by -- aMAZon @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL; ihnp4!ihuxf!features "Uh-oh, now the cat's out of the bag!" -- Prudence
tron@fluke.UUCP (Peter Barbee) (04/15/85)
My mother humorously explained to me that women's shirt buttons are opposite from men's so that men would be able to unbutton a woman's blouse without having to figure out anything so tough as reversed buttoning schemes. |-) |-) |-) |-) Peter B.
aouriri@ittvax.UUCP (Chedley Aouriri) (04/15/85)
> This has been bugging me lately... > > Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button > right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? > Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? > > Elizabeth Clayton > ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-satan!clayton *************************************************************** A possible explanation comes from the biology of the brain. The human brain is functionally divided into two lateral parts: The left part handles mainly the sequential, rational and "scientific" thoughts, while the right part handles the artistic, emotional and philosophical thoughts. Schematically speaking, the left part is the scientific/computer part, while the right part is the artistic/philosophical part. Statistically, most WOMEN are RIGHT-BRAINED (ie. the right part of their brain is more developed than the left part), while most MEN are LEFT-BRAINED. Whether this is the result of historical and socio-cultural conditions of the female gender is a different subject/topic. Because the SYMMETRY of the human nervous system, the left part of the brain controls the right parts of the human body (arms, hands, legs..) while the right part of the brain controls the left body parts. Therefore, most women are cleverer with their left hands than they are with their right hands, which makes it easier for them to button right-over-left buttons than the other way around. This is why male shirts are left over right buttoned, while female shirts are right over left buttoned. Also, statistically, more women are left-handed than men.
genesis@ihu1e.UUCP (R. Sehnoutka) (04/16/85)
> Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button > right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? > Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? > > Elizabeth Clayton This was because women in the olden days used to have matrons who would dress them, and it was easier for them to button them that way. Try buttoning a womens blouse yourself (as she wears it). It buttons the same way that a man would button his shirt. -- Russell N. Sehnoutka ------- AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!ihu1e!genesis ------- Naperville, Illinois
mike@asgb.UUCP (Mike Rosenlof) (04/16/85)
<> > Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button > right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? > Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? > > Elizabeth Clayton Men's shirts historically button left over right so that a sword drawn by a right handed person wouldn't snag on the shirt. ( The sword would be worn on the left side and drawn across the body. ) Why women's are different then or now - ??? Mike Rosenlof ihnp4!sabre!\ hplabs!sdcrdcf!-bmcg!asgb!mike { ihnp4, ucbvax, allegra }!sdcsvax!/ Burroughs Advanced Systems Group Boulder, Colorado
zubbie@wlcrjs.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (04/16/85)
In article <1649@decwrl.UUCP> clayton@satan.DEC writes: >This has been bugging me lately... > >Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button >right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? >Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? > >Elizabeth Clayton >...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-satan!clayton Historically women had a "lady in waiting" or a "ladies maid" to help them dress. Since Lefthandedness was frowned on it was only natural that clothing should be fabricated for the right handed person, and continues to be so today. Since, while a man may have had a valet to set out his clothes for him he rarely if every needed help in dressing himself (I know a few exceptions) while a ladies clothes were more complex and usually could not be worn properly if at all without assisantance in donning them. For this reason the buttons on women's garments are put on to make it easier for the person actually assumed to be doing the buttoning and the same goes for men's clothing. Jeanette L. Zobjeck wlcrjs! ihnp4!< >zubbie ihlpa! =============================================================================== From the mostly vacant environment of Jeanette L. Zobjeck (ihnp4!wlcrjs!zubbie) All opinions expressed may not even be my own. ===============================================================================
fire@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Albert C. Schultz) (04/18/85)
it seems to me that the practice of duelling with swords would encourage the sewing of buttons on the left hand side of shirts. consider: if a right handed man wearing a shirt buttoned in the modern male style took up a fencing stance, the spaces between the buttons through which his chest could be seen would be facing his opponent (whew). a sword point could pass through these gaps without meeting any opposition and pierce our hero through the heart. for this very reason, modern fencing jackets for both sexes (with buttons) are buttoned in the female fashion. pret? allez. et la! albert schultz
bandy@lll-crg.ARPA (Andrew Scott Beals) (04/18/85)
What I heard was that women were usually dressed by a servant
so the buttoning was reversed for the dresser's convenience.
If I wanted to get paranoid, I could think that the left over right
vs right over left isn't only a way to keep down left-handed men, but
also a way to mess up right-handed women, thereby helping to keep them
in their place...
--
andy beals
bandy@{lll-crg,mit-mc}.arpa {sun!lll-crg,ihnp4!mit-eddie}!bandytiedeman@ihu1g.UUCP (N. R Tiedemann) (04/18/85)
> This has been bugging me lately... > > Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button > right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? > Why make the thing differently depending on who is supposed to wear it? > I don't believe that historically the difference was who was wearing it, but who was putting it on. The fashionable men of yesterday dressed themselves. Thus, left over right. The fashionable women of those days had a dresser to help them get dressed. Therefore the buttons were still left over right for the dresser. Of course, I didn't live then so I may have it all backwards. Norm Tiedemann (AT&T Bell Labs) ihu1g!tiedeman
daveb@rtech.ARPA (Dave Brower) (04/19/85)
Now that we've settled the button debate, would anyone care to explain
why zippers on men's fashions in Europe & Asia are reversed from those
in North America? Both a leather jacket I got in Germany and a coat in
Honk Kong have zippers with the slider on the left, the insertion tab on
the right.
Is this because Knights and Samurai had someone else to zip them up? :-)--
"That way looks nice. But then again, so does that way. I guess it
depends on where your're trying to go." - Scarecrow in 'The Wizard of Oz.'
{amdahl, sun}!rtech!daveb
{ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!davebchris@pyuxc.UUCP (R. Hollenbeck) (04/19/85)
I think it's great that a topic like shirt buttons has generated so many responses. Many have stated that the current fashion of left/right buttons makes it easier for us to undress one another. With that in mind, why isn't Velcro used more often on shirts?
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (04/20/85)
In article <2587@ihuxf.UUCP> features@ihuxf.UUCP (M.A. Zeszutko) writes: > BTW, do you know why men's suitcoats have buttons on the >sleeves? My understanding is that Napoleon invented that design to discourage his officers from wiping their noses on their sleeves. Doesn't this belong in net.trivia? (Is there a net.trivia? ). -- -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe
suki@reed.UUCP (Monica Nosek) (04/21/85)
(homage to the Line-Eater-Whose-Name-May-Not-Be-Spoken-Aloud) >Many have stated that the current fashion of left/right buttons >makes it easier for us to undress one another. With that in mind, >why isn't Velcro used more often on shirts? Imagine, if you will, a tender scene, afore the fireplace, perhaps. The lovers reach across the bearskin rug in order to undress each other...RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIP! I prefer the "phut phut phut" of popping buttons.
jeff@rtech.ARPA (Jeff Lichtman) (04/21/85)
> > Does anyone know why (historically and currently) women's shirts button > > right over left and men's button left over right (or is it vice versa)? > > > > Elizabeth Clayton > > A possible explanation comes from the biology of the brain. > > The human brain is functionally divided into two lateral parts: The > left part handles mainly the sequential, rational and "scientific" > thoughts, while the right part handles the artistic, emotional > and philosophical thoughts. > ... > Statistically, most WOMEN are RIGHT-BRAINED (ie. the right part of > their brain is more developed than the left part), while most > MEN are LEFT-BRAINED. Do you have evidence of this, or is it something you believe because it fits the stereotypes of the ways that men and women think? > Because the SYMMETRY of the human nervous system, the left part > of the brain controls the right parts of the human body (arms, > hands, legs..) while the right part of the brain controls the > left body parts. > > Therefore, most women are cleverer with their left hands than > they are with their right hands, which makes it easier > for them to button right-over-left buttons than the other way > around. This is why male shirts are left over right buttoned, > while female shirts are right over left buttoned. > > Also, statistically, more women are left-handed than men. Even if more women than men are left-handed (I had never heard this), most women are still right-handed. It is simply not true that "most women are cleverer with their left hands than they are with their right hands"; this would mean that most women are left-handed. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak
herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong [DCS]) (04/21/85)
In article <362@ttidcc.UUCP> hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) writes: >> BTW, do you know why men's suitcoats have buttons on the >>sleeves? > >My understanding is that Napoleon invented that design to discourage his >officers from wiping their noses on their sleeves. i have seen paintings from the mid-18th century that have the buttons already. whether Napoleon actually invented is highly unlikely, but i have heard the same reasons for having them. certainly they were invented around or just before Napoleon's time. Herb Chong... I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....
dmmartindale@watcgl.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (04/22/85)
Canadian-made clothes also have the zipper's slider on the left side as viewed from the wearer. Perhaps only the U.S. is different?
mike@dolqci.UUCP (Mike Stalnaker) (04/23/85)
> In article <362@ttidcc.UUCP> hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) writes: > >> BTW, do you know why men's suitcoats have buttons on the > >>sleeves? > > > >My understanding is that Napoleon invented that design to discourage his > >officers from wiping their noses on their sleeves. > > i have seen paintings from the mid-18th century that have the buttons > already. whether Napoleon actually invented is highly unlikely, but > i have heard the same reasons for having them. certainly they were invented > around or just before Napoleon's time. > > Herb Chong... > > I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble.... I recently (within the last month) heard Paul Harvey give the explaination of soldiers wiping their noses on their sleeves in Napoleon's Army. It seems that it is well know fact that Napoleon was the ultimate neat-freak, and this was the easiset way he could think of to solve the problem...... -- Mike Stalnaker UUCP:{decvax!grendel,cbosgd!seismo}!dolqci!mike AT&T:202-376-2593 USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213 "You can have peace, or you can have freedom. Never count on having both at the same time." -Lazarus Long.
chris@pyuxc.UUCP (R. Hollenbeck) (04/23/85)
Since posting my question, why hasn't Velcro replaced shirt buttons, I've been to NY and found that Velcro is being used instead of buttons on some shirts. As I anticipated in my initial posting, it opens very easily. I think it's an idea whose time has come.
jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (04/23/85)
> In article <362@ttidcc.UUCP> hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) writes: > >> BTW, do you know why men's suitcoats have buttons on the > >>sleeves? > > > >My understanding is that Napoleon invented that design to discourage his > >officers from wiping their noses on their sleeves. > > i have seen paintings from the mid-18th century that have the buttons > already. whether Napoleon actually invented is highly unlikely, but > i have heard the same reasons for having them. certainly they were invented > around or just before Napoleon's time. Originally, those buttons had a use. A man's coat cuffs could be unbuttoned and folded back to reveal his fancy, lacey shirt cuffs. These pre-date the sack coat (that is, suit or sports jacket). -- jcpatilla "'Get stuffed !', the Harlequin replied ..."
smp@gitpyr.UUCP (Scott M Pfeffer) (04/24/85)
Why indeed are the buttons different? I think it may have to do with
the old days when "union" was the big word. These were the times when a
lot of women were going to work during the war time and after to support
themselves. A lot of shop owners were taking advantage of this. Women
would work 18 hour days at home and make piddling wages. Specifically in
the field of Ladies' Garments (naturally, since everyone had a sewing machine
and thread at home).
Well, to make a long story short, laws began being passed to prevent such
goings on. Certain restrictions dealing only with the Ladies' Garments (not
mens) were passed. For instance, no 18 hour work days, minimum salary require-
ments. As a result ladies' garments rose in price.
Ah, so now it is more profitable to sell mens clothing. Companies had
to make sure that their garments were unmistakeably classified as mens clothing
Because mens garment workers had no restrictions or other such laws passed to
protect the innocent. You might have thought that the lawmakers would make
laws in general to protect all garment workers, but mens garments were just
not causing a problem.
In any case, you guessed it, men's clothing could be distinguished from
womens (shirts anyway) by switching the buttons around.
Scott Pfeffer
{agkua,hplabs}!gatech!gitpyr!smp
"But honey, I can't help it if my clothing costs more than yours"hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) (04/25/85)
I once picked up a polo shirt ona sidewalk sale out of a pile. It had no label but seemed the right size. When I got it home and triedit on the buttons were on the "wrong" side. I wear the shirt anyway, it looks like all my other polo shirts, and no one has ever noticed ( orat least said anything.) perhaps was too emb