regard@ttidcc.UUCP (Adrienne Regard) (04/25/85)
> The french don't even have a word similar to 'it', I only had three >years in high school, but as far as I know, they have to use words which >mean 'him' and 'her' even when they are referring to objects, not people. >I think a frenchman would be stuck saying 'give him my memo' or 'give her >my memo', just as we are. > I don't know if the french ever wish their language provided the >ability to distinguish people from objects with pronouns, but *I* certainly >wished it did when I was trying to learn it. Sentences like 'Give it >to her.' could translate literally to 'Give him to her.' or 'Give her to >her.', depending on the gender of the referenced object. Obviously, this >was a great source of confusion to someone who hasn't figured out whether >the direct object comes before or after the indirect object. >-- >Jeff Sonntag >ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j > "This statement is true." This statement is not true. I guess those three years were a lost cause. Il and elle only refer to "him" and "her" when they refer to people. When they refer to nouns, both il and elle are as "it" as can be. French IS a language that has evolved "gender" for nouns, regardless of their "apparent" gender (someone recently pointed out some interesting oddities - female body parts that take the masculine gender and vice versa). This is a FEATURE of the language (as opposed to a BUG (-:) that grew out of it's Latin roots (which DOES have a genderless third person pronoun "on"). Gender is not the same thing as Sex. Gender in nouns is recognizably different from the sex indicated by pronouns. A frenchperson knows the difference between "she" = the chair and "she" = a woman. Just as an englishperson knows the difference between "it" = the report and "them" = Bill's secretary. Sometimes "they" don't like to admit it, but you can trip them in conversation nearly every time.
sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (05/09/85)
> > The french don't even have a word similar to 'it', I only had three > >years in high school, but as far as I know, they have to use words which > >mean 'him' and 'her' even when they are referring to objects, not people. > >I think a frenchman would be stuck saying 'give him my memo' or 'give her > >my memo', just as we are. > > I don't know if the french ever wish their language provided the > >ability to distinguish people from objects with pronouns, but *I* certainly > >wished it did when I was trying to learn it. Sentences like 'Give it > >to her.' could translate literally to 'Give him to her.' or 'Give her to > >her.', depending on the gender of the referenced object. Obviously, this > >was a great source of confusion to someone who hasn't figured out whether > >the direct object comes before or after the indirect object. > >-- > >Jeff Sonntag > > This statement is not true. I guess those three years were a lost cause. > Il and elle only refer to "him" and "her" when they refer to people. > When they refer to nouns, both il and elle are as "it" as can be. French > IS a language that has evolved "gender" for nouns, regardless of their > "apparent" gender (someone recently pointed out some interesting oddities - > female body parts that take the masculine gender and vice versa). This > is a FEATURE of the language (as opposed to a BUG (-:) that grew out of > it's Latin roots (which DOES have a genderless third person pronoun "on"). > > Gender is not the same thing as Sex. Gender in nouns is recognizably > different from the sex indicated by pronouns. A frenchperson knows the > difference between "she" = the chair and "she" = a woman. Just as an > englishperson knows the difference between "it" = the report and "them" > = Bill's secretary. Sometimes "they" don't like to admit it, but you > can trip them in conversation nearly every time. I really don't see what you are objecting to in Jeff's article. There is no "it" in french, just "il" or "elle", and even though french people know that the chair is not a woman, for all grammatical purposes, the two work exactly the same way. As a french person, I was never offended by the gender of innanimate objects. What offended my feminist sensitivities at the tender age of 5 was that the plural of one man and one woman is masculine! As it was put to us then, "if you have one male cat in the same room as 100 female cats, you will have to say 'ils'". I still have trouble swallowing that one! -- Sophie Quigley {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) (05/11/85)
> What offended my feminist sensitivities at the tender age of 5 was that the > plural of one man and one woman is masculine! As it was put to us then, > "if you have one male cat in the same room as 100 female cats, you will > have to say 'ils'". I still have trouble swallowing that one! > -- > Sophie Quigley I can see the potential for offense, but in a language with no neutral pronoun, they had to make a choice. Since the Academie Francaise is full of old male reactionaries, their choice of the male pronoun should not be surprising. The alternative is to use the female pronoun, which is also unsatisfactory. A solution is to avoid using pronouns and say things like (in the context of the above example) 'les chats' (I know that the generic 'cat' is masculine; oh well, back to the drawing board) Marcel Simon
polard@fortune.UUCP (Henry Polard) (05/17/85)
>I really don't see what you are objecting to in Jeff's article. There is >no "it" in french, just "il" or "elle", and even though french people >know that the chair is not a woman, for all grammatical purposes, the two >work exactly the same way. >Sophie Quigley >{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie Another way of looking at this is that there are TWO words for "it". -- Henry Polard (You bring the flames - I'll bring the marshmallows.) {ihnp4,cbosgd,amd}!fortune!polard N.B: The words in this posting do not necessarily express the opinions of me, my employer, or any AI project.