beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) (05/29/85)
From: ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades), Message-ID: <1566@reed.UUCP>: >Here is where I find a real problem. I would probably refuse >an escort of any male, because I do not feel safe with most men. >I would prefer to walk alone or with a female. Thus, I have >never asked for escort. Also: There's a lot more that you can >do to help women than escort them home. You are perpetuating >the idea that women can't protect themselves without men. This >damages women's strength, in itself. >[...] >The >idea I want to emphasize is that men should not protect women; >they should let them learn to protect themselves. >[...] >Again, I want to emphasize that your idea that men protect women >from sexual harassment is a harmful one, although it is >well-meaning. Ooooo. Gosh. I'll agree with most of Ellen's other suggestions (e.g. teaching women to protect themselves, calling to make sure they arrived safely, and *especially* pointing out to other men when they've slipped up), but I'm going to speak up about this one. I think every sincerely concered man (and *only* sincerely concerned men!) should offer to escort a woman to wherever she's heading. There are women who will be offended by this, and I'm sorry fellows, but I can't give you any tips on how to tell which women will be offended - you'll just have to take your chances. But the simple fact is that a woman's chances of being raped are significantly reduced if she's accompanied by a *sincerely concerned* man. And I think that if the offer is made with genuine concern, most women will appreciate your sensitivity to that fact. Which is not to say that most women will accept your offer. As I tried to point out in an earlier, somewhat graphic posting, rape is a *terrible*, *terrifying* thing, and *most rapes* are committed by men the victims had trusted. So most women are rightly hesitant to trust a man who suggests that he escort her alone into what, by definition, is a dangerous situation (the first few lines I quoted above are an example.) I'm sorry again, fellows (truly). But the loss of trust is one of the ways that *you* pay for the epidemic of rape, and it's *one* of the reasons why you should be out there busting your butts to end it. But if you can accept her refusal with understanding and grace, it will help to build up the trust you (hopefully) deserve, and maybe later on down the road she'll be able to trust you enough to let you help out. And helping each other out and caring for each other is what it's all about. So I say keep right on caring and trying to help. I'm sorry that in so doing you may offend someone or get hurt yourself. But please don't let that stop you (for long, anyway). It's a good goal, and it's one we all should aim for ever chance we get. -- --JB Life is just a bowl.
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (05/30/85)
Once a woman *asked me* to walk her from the local Safeway to an apartment about 3-4 blocks away. Now, I've been told that I often have a rather threatening air about me, but it was probably reduced considerably in this case by the fact that my arms were full of groceries. I suppose some people would suggest she wanted more than that, but I was there, not them, and I very much doubt it. Jeff Winslow
zubbie@ihlpa.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (06/05/85)
> Once a woman *asked me* to walk her from the local Safeway to an apartment > about 3-4 blocks away. Now, I've been told that I often have a rather > threatening air about me, but it was probably reduced considerably in this > case by the fact that my arms were full of groceries. > > I suppose some people would suggest she wanted more than that, but I was > there, not them, and I very much doubt it. > > Jeff Winslow *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** Along this line an interesting story: Last nite (tuesday 6/4/85) a late nite news item on TV caught my thoughts. A woman had had a fight with her room mate (sex unnamed) and had gone out for a walk (alone about 11:00 PM) after walking about her own home neighborhood for a while 2 men came up to her and withthe aid of a gun forced her to accompany them. As they approached a house where two men where working in their yard on a motorcyle she quickly walked up to them and told them that the two men with her were going to hurt her and asked for help. One of the assailants promptly hit one of the men and the other man was shot when he tried to help out. In the mean time the first man managed to call the police but the 2 attacking men got away. ( I am not too sure on that as I could not get to the TV in time to turn up the sound) It would seem that we women are really getting into a hard place under a rock here. We can ask for help, as anyone male or female should be able to do, or we can try to be our own defense. What then should be our reaction if the people we apply for help to get blown away in the process and of course we know where we are if we get blasted ourselves. The man who was shot left behind a wife and family. QUESTION: knowing even this little bit how many of you men reading this upon finding yourself in a like situation would step to the aid of the strange woman? I'm not taking a poll I'm just curious since there have been a goodly number of men saying - in effect - I can be trusted to protect you if you only let me know that is what you want or need at the moment. But if it came down to the chance to leave your loved ones unprotected in the long run would you be as willing to come to the aid of a relative stranger? Does the horror of rape and assault really have enough weight in your mind to allow you to walk into a situation kknowing that there is some chance (admitedly small) that you might never walk out of it? Think - hard - because there is every chance in the world that if a woman you agree to escort is attacked in your company you will be hurt just because you are there even if you make no move to aid her at all!! jeanette l. zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpa!zubbie ================================================================================ my thoughts and opinions have only one outlet me anyone elses will come from that person. ================================================================================
jpexg@mit-hermes.ARPA (John Purbrick) (06/07/85)
Perhaps the woman who wanted to be rescued should have told the two men who
tried to save her that her captors had a gun? Or just have shouted "Call the
police"?
A few years ago a man was beating his wife on a busy street in Cambridge
(outside Dunkin Donuts in Porter Square, for you locals). A passer-by tried
to stop this, and the man uttered the memorable line "So you want to be a
hero?", pulled a knife and fatally stabbed the would-be rescuer. The wife
refused to talk to the police, but there were other witnesses and the
husband got a life sentence. Moral: think twice before you get involved in
other people's troubles.
John Purbrick jpexg@mit-hermes.ARPA
{...decvax!genrad! ...allegra!mit-vax!} mit-eddie!mit-hermes!jpexgreh@aplvax.UUCP (Ron E. Hall) (06/07/85)
You ask a hypothetical question, you get a rhetorical answer. Only the real situation can ask an individual "what would you do if ..." and get a real answer. The two men in the example were apparently involved by the woman and answered in accordance with their natures- to help, even at some obvious risk to themselves. I accept the risk in escorting a woman because I don't want her hurt and I think my presence will dissuade rapists who prey on lone women. Against armed men seeking to do violence I have no real defence, but the slight increase in exposure to this type of attack I experience is worth the increased security she has from sexual attack. In a confrontation with violent men, where the situation is out of control, the stakes high, with injury or death likely, and the outcome uncertain, I cannot predict what I might do. I doubt anyone can. People react without thinking to the exigencies of the moment in accordance with their true nature, and weighting of responsibilities elswhere is only one quantity in the equation. My experience based on ambulance work in college is that most people try to help in emergencies, even at some risk to themselves, and the rest freeze or run away, and only God sees deeply enough into a person to tell before the fact which group he belongs to. It's a good question, really a good thought experiment, but the answer isn't useful because it can come only after the fact. Ron Hall JHU/APL ...decvax!harpo!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!reh ...rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!reh -- Ron Hall JHU/APL ...decvax!harpo!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!reh ...rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!reh
jeff@rtech.UUCP (06/10/85)
> > QUESTION: > > knowing even this little bit how many of you men reading this > upon finding yourself in a like situation would step to the aid > of the strange woman? It's almost impossible to answer this honestly. I would love to believe that I would not back down in this situation, but I've never been faced with something like this; to say that I would be brave would just be noise. I have come to people's aid in the past (both men and women), but I have never faced a situation before where there was an immediately obvious danger of being killed. > I'm not taking a poll I'm just curious since there have been a goodly > number of men saying - in effect - I can be trusted to protect you > if you only let me know that is what you want or need at the moment. > But if it came down to the chance to leave your loved ones unprotected > in the long run would you be as willing to come to the aid of a > relative stranger? > > Does the horror of rape and assault really have enough weight in your > mind to allow you to walk into a situation kknowing that there is some > chance (admitedly small) that you might never walk out of it? > > Think - hard - because there is every chance in the world that if a woman > you agree to escort is attacked in your company you will be hurt just because > you are there even if you make no move to aid her at all!! > > jeanette l. zobjeck I don't think that my escorting a woman is any riskier to me than my walking alone. My escorting a woman isn't some grand, brave act on my part; I'm just adding to the woman's safety, because anyone who attacks her will be attacking me, too. If we are attacked, then I will do what I can. If I get shot, then I get shot: I take this small risk every time I walk out the door, regardless of whom I'm with. If I am ever faced with having to risk my life in order to save someone else's, I'm not sure that I would act bravely, but I'm not going to be so cowardly as to avoid escorting women because of what might happen. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (06/10/85)
> Last nite (tuesday 6/4/85) a late nite news item on TV caught my thoughts. > > A woman had had a fight with her room mate (sex unnamed) and had gone > > out for a walk (alone about 11:00 PM) after walking about her own home > neighborhood for a while 2 men came up to her and withthe aid of a gun > forced her to accompany them. > As they approached a house where two men where working in their yard > on a motorcyle she quickly walked up to them and told them that the > two men with her were going to hurt her and asked for help. > > One of the assailants promptly hit one of the men and the other man > was shot when he tried to help out. In the mean time the first man > managed to call the police but the 2 attacking men got away. > ( I am not too sure on that as I could not get to the TV in time > to turn up the sound) > > It would seem that we women are really getting into a hard place > under a rock here. > > We can ask for help, as anyone male or female should be able to do, > or we can try to be our own defense. > What then should be our reaction if the people we apply for help to > get blown away in the process and of course we know where we are if we > get blasted ourselves. > > The man who was shot left behind a wife and family. > > QUESTION: > > knowing even this little bit how many of you men reading this > upon finding yourself in a like situation would step to the aid > of the strange woman? > I would *never* get into a fight with two rapists unarmed --- but then again, I am never more than 30 seconds from a firearm, except when I am at work. The correct reaction to the situation described above is to go back into the house, get a firearm, and encourage the two rapists to go away or die. I would be surprised if a rapist is going to risk his life just to commit a rape, and I would be very surprised if a rapist would risk an even-handed fight. > I'm not taking a poll I'm just curious since there have been a goodly > number of men saying - in effect - I can be trusted to protect you > if you only let me know that is what you want or need at the moment. > But if it came down to the chance to leave your loved ones unprotected > in the long run would you be as willing to come to the aid of a > relative stranger? > > Does the horror of rape and assault really have enough weight in your > mind to allow you to walk into a situation kknowing that there is some > chance (admitedly small) that you might never walk out of it? > Certainly --- it could be my wife or daughter in that situation. I think people are overlooking an important issue relating to this --- the collapse of religion in this century has left a lot of people in the situation where they are so fearful of death, that they will do almost *anything* to cling on to life. Perhaps the reason that totalitarianism has been so successful in this century is that most people will commit any atrocity, or allow any atrocity to be committed in their presence, rather than take a chance on death. > Think - hard - because there is every chance in the world that if a woman > you agree to escort is attacked in your company you will be hurt just because > you are there even if you make no move to aid her at all!! > > jeanette l. zobjeck > ihnp4!ihlpa!zubbie > >