jla@usl.UUCP (Joe Arceneaux) (05/28/85)
In article <560@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) writes: > >2 out of 2 women that I care about have found it pretty damn hard to >recover from rape, too. Me, I've never been raped. I don't think I >*really* know what it means. But I know that if I'm ever threatened >with rape I'll fight so hard they'll have to kill me before they can >rape me. 'Cause when I see the ongoing, apparently irreparable damage >those bastards inflict, I actually believe I'd rather be murdered than >raped. I disagree with you - I think rape is worse than murder. And >I'd like to see the bastards die - real slowly. Whether we *should* >kill 'em is up in the air. But I'd sure like to. Agreed that there are people who never "recover" from rape, but then there are some who do survive it without serious damage (several women I know, e.g.). On the other hand, *nobody* survives murder. -- Joe Arceneaux Lafayette, LA {akgua, ut-sally}!usl!jla
gkloker@utai.UUCP (Geoff Loker) (05/30/85)
In article <522@usl.UUCP> jla@usl.UUCP (Joe Arceneaux) writes: >In article <560@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) writes: >> >> . . . I disagree with you - I think rape is worse than murder. . . > >Agreed that there are people who never "recover" from rape, but then there >are some who do survive it without serious damage (several women I know, >e.g.). On the other hand, *nobody* survives murder. > >-- > Joe Arceneaux Admittedly being murdered is not very nice and can really ruin things, but at least it is over and done with. With rape, victims have to live with the fact of it and the memory of it for the rest of their lives. Some may be able to "recover" from it better than others, but the knowledge of what happened and the memory of it remains as a scar on the psyche. For the lucky ones who are able to return to "normal" (can they ever?), there is still a period of time (weeks, months, years?) during which they have too come to grips with the fact that another human being(*) could have violated them so. During this time of readjustment, can you imagine the feelings that are going on inside them? The distrust of others, the fear of their attacker coming back, nightmares, self-guilt ("What was there about me that made my attacker do that?"), a loathing of the mere touch of someone else, etc? (I'm sure I can't.) And these are the lucky ones who are able to put their experience behind them somewhat. What about the others to whom such feelings and memories are a daily reality? With murder victims, they do suffer, but once the crime is over that's it -- their suffering is done (but not that of their families [that's another can of worms, though]). I think that this definitely shows that rape is a worse crime than murder. (*)--Is it being too fair to the rapist/attacker to consider them human? -- Geoff Loker Department of Computer Science University of Toronto Toronto, ON M5S 1A4 USENET: {ihnp4 decwrl utzoo uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!gkloker CSNET: gkloker@toronto ARPANET: gkloker.toronto@csnet-relay "How do you hurt a <person> who's lost everything? Give <them> back something that's broken." -- Thomas Covenant
sed408@ihlpg.UUCP (s. dugan) (06/03/85)
> In article <522@usl.UUCP> jla@usl.UUCP (Joe Arceneaux) writes: > >In article <560@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) writes: > >> > >> . . . I disagree with you - I think rape is worse than murder. . . > > > >Agreed that there are people who never "recover" from rape, but then there > >are some who do survive it without serious damage (several women I know, > >e.g.). On the other hand, *nobody* survives murder. > > > >-- > > Joe Arceneaux > > Admittedly being murdered is not very nice and can really ruin things, > but at least it is over and done with. With rape, victims have to > live with the fact of it and the memory of it for the rest of their > lives. Some may be able to "recover" from it better than others, but > the knowledge of what happened and the memory of it remains as a scar > on the psyche. > > For the lucky ones who are able to return to "normal" (can they ever?), > there is still a period of time (weeks, months, years?) during which they > have too come to grips with the fact that another human being(*) could have > violated them so. During this time of readjustment, can you imagine > the feelings that are going on inside them? The distrust of others, > the fear of their attacker coming back, nightmares, self-guilt ("What > was there about me that made my attacker do that?"), a loathing of > the mere touch of someone else, etc? (I'm sure I can't.) And these > are the lucky ones who are able to put their experience behind them > somewhat. What about the others to whom such feelings and memories > are a daily reality? > > With murder victims, they do suffer, but once the crime is over that's > it -- their suffering is done (but not that of their families [that's > another can of worms, though]). > > I think that this definitely shows that rape is a worse crime than > murder. > > > > (*)--Is it being too fair to the rapist/attacker to consider them human? > > > -- > Geoff Loker > Department of Computer Science > University of Toronto > Toronto, ON > M5S 1A4 > NOW HOOOOOOLD ON THAR!!! All of us suffer some heavy-duty things at some time in our lives. It's too bad, but that's what living's all about! If you'd rather die than suffer than you'd better end it all right here and now because I guarantee you will suffer. Just because life's tough is no reason to prefer not living. I've had my share of tough times. I've been raped TWICE (see previous posting). I'm glad as hell that I'm still around to show other victims that you don't have to live the rest of your life as a victim. Life does go on. THANK GOD! Sarah E. Dugan (no clever lines) -- Sarah E. Dugan (no clever lines)
barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) (06/05/85)
So now we're back to rape being a "fate worse than death." Phooey! Surely a rape victim who felt that way would be able to manage to get the rapist to be "kindly" and kill himer. Or do a Victorian number and kill herself. The fact that the rape victim chooses to live is pretty good evidence that she at least prefers life after rape. Or perhaps we should set up a new form of euthanasia proceeding. Force the poor victim to live long enough to determine if the rapist can be prosecuted. Then after the judge's ruling, kill the victim! For her own good!? What incredibly warped reasoning. It seems pretty obvious to me that rape may be more painful (emotionally and/or physically) than dying. But living-after-rape is definitely preferable to being-dead-after-dying. Claiming that any injury is worse than death opens the door to all sorts of nonsense (see above). --Lee Gold
jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (06/05/85)
> >> . . . I disagree with you - I think rape is worse than murder. . . > > > >Agreed that there are people who never "recover" from rape, but then there > >are some who do survive it without serious damage (several women I know, > >e.g.). On the other hand, *nobody* survives murder. > >-- > > Joe Arceneaux > > Admittedly being murdered is not very nice and can really ruin things, > but at least it is over and done with. With rape, victims have to > live with the fact of it and the memory of it for the rest of their > lives. ... > For the lucky ones who are able to return to "normal" (can they ever?), > there is still a period of time (weeks, months, years?) during which they > have too come to grips with the fact that another human being(*) could have > violated them so. During this time of readjustment, can you imagine > the feelings that are going on inside them? ... > With murder victims, they do suffer, but once the crime is over that's > it -- their suffering is done (but not that of their families [that's > another can of worms, though]). > > I think that this definitely shows that rape is a worse crime than > murder. > > Geoff Loker Geoff Loker's reasoning really, really bothers me. Right now, there are people all over the world who are struggling against almost impossible odds to stay alive, struggling against starvation, war, disease, and persecution, at the cost of their own intense suffering. These people could simply kill themselves to end their suffering. Why don't they? Maybe some of these people feel that suicide is a mortal sin, which would cause them to go to Hell and receive more suffering than they are currently undergoing, but I don't think that's the real answer. Survival is one of the strongest instincts. It is so strong that most people would endure just about anything in order to stay alive. I believe that Mr Loker's argument carries the following message to women who have been raped and who now feel that their lives may not be worth living: "The worst thing that can ever happen to you has happened. It is worse than being killed. You may never recover. It is likely that you will live the rest of your life with extreme self-loathing and fear at every moment." The underlying message is that, if you have been raped, then the rest of your life will be useless to you. I realize that this is not what Mr. Loker intended, but I feel very strongly that this is the effect of his philosophy. I think this comes from an overzealous attempt to make some men realize the seriousness of rape. Homocide is the only crime from which it is impossible to recover. It may be extremely difficult to recover from rape, but it is not impossible. I think that any woman who has been raped and is feeling suicidal, deathly afraid, or worthless, should be encouraged in every way possible to overcome the problems that have been imposed on her. I feel that attitudes like Geoff Loker's are counter-productive. What bothers me most about Mr. Loker's argument is that it seems derived from political expediency. The attitude seems to be that, to counteract arguments that belittle the seriousness of rape, one must claim that rape is absolutely the worst thing that can happen to a woman, even worse than murder. The implications of such a belief are ignored, because the important thing is to win the argument. P.S. To the women who have said that you would fight to the death rather than submit to rape: I am not arguing against you. I have said before in this newsgroup that I feel women should defend themselves in every way possible against violent attack. I feel that defending yourself in this way is the opposite of folding up and dying, because it follows the instinct to keep yourself alive and intact. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) (06/07/85)
From: barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold), Message-ID: <2047@sdcrdcf.UUCP>: >So now we're back to rape being a "fate worse than death." Phooey! > >Surely a rape victim who felt that way would be able to manage to get >the rapist to be "kindly" and kill himer. Or do a Victorian number >and kill herself. The fact that the rape victim chooses to live is >pretty good evidence that she at least prefers life after rape. > >Or perhaps we should set up a new form of euthanasia proceeding. Force >the poor victim to live long enough to determine if the rapist can be >prosecuted. Then after the judge's ruling, kill the victim! >For her own good!? > >What incredibly warped reasoning. >[...] >--Lee Gold It is indeed warped reasoning. Please note that you're the only one who proposed it. -- --JB Life is just a bowl.
robertp@weitek.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) (06/07/85)
>In article <560@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) writes: > > . . . I disagree with you - I think rape is worse than murder. . . > So, should thoughtful rapists commit the lesser crime, and murder women instead? Should they demonstrate compassion by murdering their victims AFTER raping them? Should the government encourage victims to commit suicide and save themselves agony? Should the penalties for rape be so much stronger than the penalties for murder that rapists will feel FORCED to muder their victims? The line "fate worse than death" should be left for melodramas -- when people start taking it seriously the effects are very, very nasty. -- -- Robert Plamondon {ucbvax!dual!turtlevax,ihnp4!resonex}!weitek!robertp
gkloker@utai.UUCP (Geoff Loker) (06/07/85)
In article <554@ihlpg.UUCP> sed408@ihlpg.UUCP (s. dugan) writes: >> In article <522@usl.UUCP> jla@usl.UUCP (Joe Arceneaux) writes: >> >In article <560@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) writes: >> >> >> >> . . . I disagree with you - I think rape is worse than murder. . . >> > >> >Agreed that there are people who never "recover" from rape, but then there >> >are some who do survive it without serious damage (several women I know, >> >e.g.). On the other hand, *nobody* survives murder. >> > >> >-- >> > Joe Arceneaux >> >> . . . various rumblings about suffering, etc. . . . >> >> I think that this definitely shows that rape is a worse crime than >> murder. (Did I really say that?) >> >> -- >> Geoff Loker >> > > >NOW HOOOOOOLD ON THAR!!! > >All of us suffer some heavy-duty things at some time in our lives. It's too >bad, but that's what living's all about! If you'd rather die than suffer than >you'd better end it all right here and now because I guarantee you will >suffer. Just because life's tough is no reason to prefer not living. I've >had my share of tough times. I've been raped TWICE (see previous posting). >I'm glad as hell that I'm still around to show other victims that you don't >have to live the rest of your life as a victim. Life does go on. THANK GOD! > > > > Sarah E. Dugan > (no clever lines) My apologies, Sarah. I never meant to come out sounding like I was an advocate for death. What I was trying to say was that rape is as serious a crime as murder, and that in some cases it is worse in that its victim can be left in a "living death". As you pointed out, it is possible to recover from rape (thank God), but on the other hand there are some who don't. In those cases **especially**, I think that rape should be treated as a more serious crime than murder. In my previous posting, I was trying to get across the idea of the horribleness of rape without having it seem as if I was saying that someone would be better off dead. I wanted to say that rape took something precious from a victim and forced that person to live with the loss of it for the rest of their lives, but by the way I phrased it, it could have been taken as if I thought that a rape victim would be better off dead (as a mercy?) (I DO NOT feel this way.) I went for a quick and dirty ending which said something I hadn't meant to say. Sorry. Please note: I am NOT saying that I don't prefer life. I am NOT saying that rape victims should give up on life, or that they would be better off dead. I certainly DO NOT want to come down on any rape victims. I am sorry, once again, for not having made my ideas clearer. -- Geoff Loker Department of Computer Science University of Toronto Toronto, ON M5S 1A4 USENET: {ihnp4 decwrl utzoo uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!gkloker CSNET: gkloker@toronto ARPANET: gkloker.toronto@csnet-relay
chrisa@azure.UUCP (Chris Andersen) (06/09/85)
Lee Gold: > Surely a rape victim who felt that way would be able to manage to get > the rapist to be "kindly" and kill himer. Or do a Victorian number > and kill herself. The fact that the rape victim chooses to live is > pretty good evidence that she at least prefers life after rape. > Maybe she doesn't choose to live or not to live. Maybe she's to screwed up in the head afterward to know what she should do.
zubbie@ihlpa.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (06/11/85)
> From: barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold), Message-ID: <2047@sdcrdcf.UUCP>: > >So now we're back to rape being a "fate worse than death." Phooey! > > > >Surely a rape victim who felt that way would be able to manage to get > >the rapist to be "kindly" and kill himer. Or do a Victorian number > >and kill herself. The fact that the rape victim chooses to live is > >pretty good evidence that she at least prefers life after rape. > > > >Or perhaps we should set up a new form of euthanasia proceeding. Force > >the poor victim to live long enough to determine if the rapist can be > >prosecuted. Then after the judge's ruling, kill the victim! > >For her own good!? > > > >What incredibly warped reasoning. > >[...] > >--Lee Gold > > It is indeed warped reasoning. Please note that you're the only > one who proposed it. > > -- > > --JB Life is just a bowl. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** Just because it doesnot make front page headlines does not mean that there are not many women who do just that. They may not go out and blow themselves away but the end result is just as fatal jeanette l. zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpa!zubbie