beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) (05/30/85)
From: sed408@ihlpg.UUCP (s. dugan), Message-ID: <530@ihlpg.UUCP>: >If it is true that women wearing "provocative" clothing *may* trigger the >rapist, why do little, old ladies in wrinkly clothes get raped? For that >matter, what about little children (male and female) being raped by adults >(again, both male and female)? Men in prison get raped, too. I think we >need to focus on the fact that rape is violence and *NOT* sex. > > Sarah E. Dugan Rape is absolutely nothing but violence...as far as the victim is con- cerned. But there are men who derive sexual gratification from raping women. Sperm is used as evidence in a lot of rape cases, and (correct me if I'm wrong, but) there isn't any sperm if he didn't get off sexually. I think, at least in the twisted minds of rapists, there are indeed sexual aspects to rape. Just for a little diversion, I'm going to offer my theory as to why we started saying that "rape is violence, not sex" in the first place (I know you're all just dying to hear my theory :-) : I think there are some men out there who believe that there are women who *want* to be dominated, who *want* to be forced, who *would* get sexual satisfaction from being raped. These fellows are pretty clearly poten- tial rapists. Now let's be honest here: there are women out there who are into bondage and S&M and stuff like that. There are even women out there who have rape fantasies (heresy, I know, but true none the less). But what's lost on some men is the fact that these women do NOT actually *want* to be raped, any more than people who go to see _Psycho_ two or three times *want* to find a slasher in their shower stall tomorrow morning (did I get the right movie? do you get my point?). And I think the point of stressing that rape is NOT sexual but ONLY violent is to try to get through to these dangerous minds that NO WOMAN gets sexual satis- faction from being raped, do NOT kid yourselves. Even the women who do get off on bondage and S&M do so *only* in controlled circumstances, with a specific lover *of their choice*, when the ground rules (including a password that means "stop Now") are *clearly* laid out *in advance*. What's exciting to them, and to the women who have rape fantasies, is the *illusion* of the loss of control, not the *actual* loss of control. So don't anybody in the whole entire world be deluded into believing that there is even one single woman anywhere who would get sexual gratifica- tion from being raped. End of theory. Is the above is correct? There are a number of people who have posted the statement to this newsgroup. Why are you saying it? What infor- mation are you trying to convey? In particular, in the quote at the beginning of this, Sarah stated the she thinks "we need to focus on the fact that rape is violence and *NOT* sex". I must confess I'm curious as to *why* we need to *focus* on that here. I haven't seen anybody post anything to net.women suggesting that any woman might ever enjoy rape. So where are we going with this? What are we trying to get across? It seems to have lost meaning for me, and I want to understand where people are coming from. So comments and clarifications are requested and encouraged (but flames singe the hair on my arms and make my office smell). Thanx. -- --JB Life is just a bowl.
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (05/31/85)
If a man walks up to you and asks to borrow a dollar and you say "yes" that is a loan. If a man walks up to you and asks to take a dollar from you and you say "yes" that is a gift. If a man walks up to you and asks for a dollar and you say "no" and he takes it anyway... that is robbery. If a man walks up to you and asks to beat you or asks for your body and you say "yes" that is some flavor of minority sexual behavior. If a man walks up to you and asks for your body and you say "no", and he takes it anyway... that is rape. Rape is domination or physical assault (be it violent or sexual) WITHOUT CONSENT > > From: sed408@ihlpg.UUCP (s. dugan), Message-ID: <530@ihlpg.UUCP>: > >If it is true that women wearing "provocative" clothing *may* trigger the > >rapist, why do little, old ladies in wrinkly clothes get raped? For that > >matter, what about little children (male and female) being raped by adults > >(again, both male and female)? Men in prison get raped, too. I think we > >need to focus on the fact that rape is violence and *NOT* sex. > > > > Sarah E. Dugan > > Rape is absolutely nothing but violence...as far as the victim is con- > cerned. But there are men who derive sexual gratification from raping > women. Sperm is used as evidence in a lot of rape cases, and (correct me > if I'm wrong, but) there isn't any sperm if he didn't get off sexually. > I think, at least in the twisted minds of rapists, there are indeed > sexual aspects to rape. > > > Just for a little diversion, I'm going to offer my theory as to why we > started saying that "rape is violence, not sex" in the first place (I > know you're all just dying to hear my theory :-) : > > I think there are some men out there who believe that there are women who > *want* to be dominated, who *want* to be forced, who *would* get sexual > satisfaction from being raped. These fellows are pretty clearly poten- > tial rapists. Now let's be honest here: there are women out there who > are into bondage and S&M and stuff like that. There are even women out > there who have rape fantasies (heresy, I know, but true none the less). > But what's lost on some men is the fact that these women do NOT actually > *want* to be raped, any more than people who go to see _Psycho_ two or > three times *want* to find a slasher in their shower stall tomorrow > morning (did I get the right movie? do you get my point?). And I think > the point of stressing that rape is NOT sexual but ONLY violent is to try > to get through to these dangerous minds that NO WOMAN gets sexual satis- > faction from being raped, do NOT kid yourselves. Even the women who do > get off on bondage and S&M do so *only* in controlled circumstances, with > a specific lover *of their choice*, when the ground rules (including a > password that means "stop Now") are *clearly* laid out *in advance*. > What's exciting to them, and to the women who have rape fantasies, is the > *illusion* of the loss of control, not the *actual* loss of control. So > don't anybody in the whole entire world be deluded into believing that > there is even one single woman anywhere who would get sexual gratifica- > tion from being raped. > > End of theory. > > Is the above is correct? There are a number of people who have posted > the statement to this newsgroup. Why are you saying it? What infor- > mation are you trying to convey? In particular, in the quote at the > beginning of this, Sarah stated the she thinks "we need to focus on the > fact that rape is violence and *NOT* sex". I must confess I'm curious as > to *why* we need to *focus* on that here. I haven't seen anybody post > anything to net.women suggesting that any woman might ever enjoy rape. > So where are we going with this? What are we trying to get across? It > seems to have lost meaning for me, and I want to understand where people > are coming from. So comments and clarifications are requested and > encouraged (but flames singe the hair on my arms and make my office > smell). > > Thanx. > > -- > > --JB Life is just a bowl. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
srm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian) (06/02/85)
>Sarah stated the she thinks "we need to focus on the >fact that rape is violence and *NOT* sex". I must confess I'm curious as >to *why* we need to *focus* on that here. Because that realization allows us to cut through rationalizations like: 1. I couldn't help myself...my hormone levels are too high. 2. She was asking for it walking around in that sexy sweatshirt. 3. I'm sick...I need treatment, not punishment. 4. I had a right to do it, since {she's my wife | she led me on}. -- Richard Mateosian {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!srm nsc!srm@decwrl.ARPA
whitehur@tymix.UUCP (Pamela K. Whitehurst) (06/03/85)
In article <601@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) writes: > >From: sed408@ihlpg.UUCP (s. dugan), Message-ID: <530@ihlpg.UUCP>: >>If it is true that women wearing "provocative" clothing *may* trigger the >>rapist, why do little, old ladies in wrinkly clothes get raped? For that >>matter, what about little children (male and female) being raped by adults >>(again, both male and female)? Men in prison get raped, too. I think we >>need to focus on the fact that rape is violence and *NOT* sex. >> >> Sarah E. Dugan > >Rape is absolutely nothing but violence...as far as the victim is con- >cerned. But there are men who derive sexual gratification from raping >women. Sperm is used as evidence in a lot of rape cases, and (correct me >if I'm wrong, but) there isn't any sperm if he didn't get off sexually. >I think, at least in the twisted minds of rapists, there are indeed >sexual aspects to rape. > > >Just for a little diversion, I'm going to offer my theory as to why we >started saying that "rape is violence, not sex" in the first place (I >know you're all just dying to hear my theory :-) : > >I think there are some men out there who believe that there are women who >*want* to be dominated, who *want* to be forced, who *would* get sexual >satisfaction from being raped. These fellows are pretty clearly poten- >tial rapists. Now let's be honest here: there are women out there who >are into bondage and S&M and stuff like that. There are even women out >there who have rape fantasies (heresy, I know, but true none the less). >But what's lost on some men is the fact that these women do NOT actually >*want* to be raped, any more than people who go to see _Psycho_ two or >three times *want* to find a slasher in their shower stall tomorrow >morning (did I get the right movie? do you get my point?). And I think >the point of stressing that rape is NOT sexual but ONLY violent is to try >to get through to these dangerous minds that NO WOMAN gets sexual satis- >faction from being raped, do NOT kid yourselves. Even the women who do >get off on bondage and S&M do so *only* in controlled circumstances, with >a specific lover *of their choice*, when the ground rules (including a >password that means "stop Now") are *clearly* laid out *in advance*. >What's exciting to them, and to the women who have rape fantasies, is the >*illusion* of the loss of control, not the *actual* loss of control. So >don't anybody in the whole entire world be deluded into believing that >there is even one single woman anywhere who would get sexual gratifica- >tion from being raped. > >End of theory. > >Is the above is correct? There are a number of people who have posted >the statement to this newsgroup. Why are you saying it? What infor- >mation are you trying to convey? In particular, in the quote at the >beginning of this, Sarah stated the she thinks "we need to focus on the >fact that rape is violence and *NOT* sex". I must confess I'm curious as >to *why* we need to *focus* on that here. I haven't seen anybody post >anything to net.women suggesting that any woman might ever enjoy rape. >So where are we going with this? What are we trying to get across? It >seems to have lost meaning for me, and I want to understand where people >are coming from. So comments and clarifications are requested and >encouraged (but flames singe the hair on my arms and make my office >smell). > >Thanx. > >-- > >--JB Life is just a bowl. Violence is the unjust use of power. Depriving someone of their rights is unjust. In this country, women and men have the right to decide with whom they will have sex. The use of power, whether real or in the mind of the victim, to deny this right is an act of violence. The use of power to deny someone the right to own property is called robbery. The use of power to deny someone the right to decide who they will have sex with is called rape. -PKW- The use or thre
beth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Beth Christy) (06/04/85)
From: srm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian), Message-ID: <2788@nsc.UUCP>: >>[me] >>Sarah stated the she thinks "we need to focus on the >>fact that rape is violence and *NOT* sex". I must confess I'm curious as >>to *why* we need to *focus* on that here. > >Because that realization allows us to cut through rationalizations like: > > 1. I couldn't help myself...my hormone levels are too high. > 2. She was asking for it walking around in that sexy sweatshirt. > 3. I'm sick...I need treatment, not punishment. > 4. I had a right to do it, since {she's my wife | she led me on}. >-- >Richard Mateosian I was overusing '*'. Let me re-ask using the emphasis that was in my mind: Why do we need to *focus* on that *HERE*? I haven't seen any one of those rationalizations posted to this newsgroup. An occasional reminder that rape is pure violence is always welcome, but posting it over and over to this newsgroup seems to be a reaction to a problem I haven't seen (much of) *HERE* (although the problem unfortunately surrounds us everywhere else) (Spiro whoever is a notable exception to this). We seem to be talking to people in other parts of our worlds, and not to each other. Unless I'm missing something, which is why I asked the question in the first place. If we *are* talking to each other, I'm not hearing the meaning behind the words, and I'd like someone to clarify it for me. -- --JB Life is just a bowl.
jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (06/05/85)
> >Sarah stated the she thinks "we need to focus on the > >fact that rape is violence and *NOT* sex". I must confess I'm curious as > >to *why* we need to *focus* on that here. > > Because that realization allows us to cut through rationalizations like: > ... > 3. I'm sick...I need treatment, not punishment. ... > Richard Mateosian I don't quite see why, if a man blamed the fact that he raped a woman on mental illness, it would mean that he was equating rape with sex. He could just as easily be saying that he couldn't avoid violent behavior because of his mental illness. Maybe claims of mental illness should be called "irrationalizations". :-) Many people these days are intolerant of the insanity defense, largely because of some famous abuses (e.g. the Dan White Twinkie defense). Actually, the insanity defense is rarely used. In many cases where it is used, the defendant actually was driven to commit the crime because of mental illness. I feel that if someone committed even as severe a crime as rape due to mental illness, then that person should get psychiatric or psychological treatment, not prison. This is getting a little far afield. One thing I don't know is: how often do rapists use the insanity defense? -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
srm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian) (06/07/85)
>> That realization allows us to cut through rationalizations like: > ... >> 3. I'm sick...I need treatment, not punishment. >I feel that if someone committed even as severe a crime as rape due to mental >illness, then that person should get psychiatric or psychological treatment, >not prison. What I had in mind when I posted the "I'm sick" point was a program I saw on TV (60 Minutes?) in which a rapist explained that he merely had high hormone levels (as substantiated by lab tests) and so couldn't help himself. But to answer your basic point, the disease analogy may be helpful in dealing with inappropriate behavior, but I think that it has very little usefulness in courts of law. -- Richard Mateosian {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!srm nsc!srm@decwrl.ARPA
zubbie@ihlpa.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (06/12/85)
> > ... > >> 3. I'm sick...I need treatment, not punishment. > > >I feel that if someone committed even as severe a crime as rape due to mental > >illness, then that person should get psychiatric or psychological treatment, > >not prison. > > on TV (60 Minutes?) in which a rapist explained that he merely had high > hormone levels (as substantiated by lab tests) and so couldn't help > himself. > > But to answer your basic point, the disease analogy may be helpful in > dealing with inappropriate behavior, but I think that it has very little > usefulness in courts of law. > -- > Richard Mateosian *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** I almost concur. Actually the best solution would be that if an aberation exists which can/did/could cause a person to be a rapist then the treat ment should be 90 years in a padded room with no windows and no lights and no anything accept a slot through which sustanance would be dispenced. jeanette l. zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpa!zubbie ================================================================================ These are my opinions. share them at your own risk! ==============================================================================