neal@fear.UUCP (Neal Bedard) (06/07/85)
I have been reading/'n' keying past stuff in this group now for a couple of months now, and I would like to summarise my thoughts on some of the topics. Excuse the terseness - I want to keep this reasonably short. Lightweight stuff: o On Women and T.P. consumption: Who cares? Let 'em buy the extra that they need. o On Men and relieving themselves: Men: Lift the damn seat (Lower it when you're done.) Let's flush this discussion down the drain, where it belongs. Medium weight: o On the Great Sexist Language Debate: For nouns of professions, I attempt to use a neutral term, if it isn't too awkward. If I blow it, and a sharp-eared feminist type points it out, I don't get upset. If she begins a verbal attack on me for being an MCP, I tell her to piss off. I have little patience for people who are hunting for inferences in my verbiage that I didn't imply. Let's not butcher English up too badly, please... o On Discrimination, etc.: It sucks. It should be fixed. Heavyweight Stuff: o Why do men rape? Because there are men who are aroused at the thought of dominating and/or hurting women. If they were not aroused, they would commit simple violence, not rape. Real sickos can only experience sexual release *while committing rape*. The violent aspect of rape heightens the sexual act for these men. Rape is, then, sex in synergy with violence. o How do we solve the problem? Find out what makes these men tick, and try to help the ones we can, like is currently being done with child molesters. In the meantime, women will still have to be aware of the possibility of being raped. Its a sad fact of Real Life. o How could a man understand what rape is? I quote Arlyn Fox, fox@dec-ozone: > Rape is never talking about it again, after the first time you > try, to even your closest, most feminist male friend. For fear > you'll glance down and see the bulge in his pants, too. Men: Imagine being mistakenly arrested for for a violent crime (rape, say) and thrown into a `tiger cage' with hardened criminals. These guys (rapists, probably) don't like you very much so they decide to gang-anal-rape you and beat the crap out of you for good measure. This is the general idea for a parallel male experience. I don't think many of you would be bulging at this point. o Our criminal justice system and rape: The wheels do grind slowly. See Discrimination, etc. above. o Guns for personal defense (BLOW 'EM AWAY, etc.): What if your attacker surprises you, or he takes your gun away from you (this happens to cops, too, who are ostensibly the best trained civilians to use firearms.) Guns create more problems than they solve. o How do you defend yourself against a rapist? Depends on the woman. For some, submitting may be more apropriate, while others can use tactics to injure the attacker, if they are physically and emotionally able. There are tradeoffs. The point is to stay alive. There, I've said it. Can we go on to something new now? Neal B. "One good thing about music, when it 'its you you feel no pain" (Bob Marley)
zubbie@ihlpa.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (06/14/85)
> Lightweight stuff: > This stuff is as it is and will blow away eventually > > > Medium weight: > > o On the Great Sexist Language Debate: > For nouns of professions, I attempt to use a neutral term, if it isn't > too awkward. If I blow it, and a sharp-eared feminist type points it > out, I don't get upset. If she begins a verbal attack on me for being > an MCP, I tell her to piss off. I have little patience for people who > are hunting for inferences in my verbiage that I didn't imply. > > Let's not butcher English up too badly, please... No inferences are necessary - the continued use of sexist terms only tends to contibute to the continued use of sexits terms small or large the damage remains the same. > > o On Discrimination, etc.: > It sucks. It should be fixed. > > Heavyweight Stuff: > > o Why do men rape? > Because there are men who are aroused at the thought of dominating > and/or hurting women. If they were not aroused, they would commit > simple violence, not rape. Real sickos can only experience sexual > release *while committing rape*. The violent aspect of rape heightens > the sexual act for these men. Rape is, then, sex in synergy with > violence. The trouble with this attitude/outlook is that it is almost completely dead-wrong. > > o How do we solve the problem? > Find out what makes these men tick, and try to help the ones we can, > like is currently being done with child molesters. In the meantime, > women will still have to be aware of the possibility of being raped. > Its a sad fact of Real Life. BETTER solution - find out what makes these men tick and take it out. > > o How could a man understand what rape is? > I quote Arlyn Fox, fox@dec-ozone: > > Rape is never talking about it again, after the first time you > > try, to even your closest, most feminist male friend. For fear > > you'll glance down and see the bulge in his pants, too. > > Men: Imagine being mistakenly arrested for for a violent crime (rape, say) > and thrown into a `tiger cage' with hardened criminals. These guys > (rapists, probably) don't like you very much so they decide to > gang-anal-rape you and beat the crap out of you for good measure. This > is the general idea for a parallel male experience. I don't think many > of you would be bulging at this point. Almost but no cigar charley - - remove the cage and make it the street in front of your house. change the mean baddies to every man you meet (potential) Make the time of day variable but after dark multiply by 100x. > > o Our criminal justice system and rape: > The wheels do grind slowly. See Discrimination, etc. above. > > o Guns for personal defense (BLOW 'EM AWAY, etc.): > What if your attacker surprises you, or he takes your gun away from you > (this happens to cops, too, who are ostensibly the best trained > civilians to use firearms.) Guns create more problems than they solve. > > o How do you defend yourself against a rapist? > Depends on the woman. For some, submitting may be more apropriate, ^^^^^^^^^^ REFER to my posting beginning : "YOU BLITHERING IDIOT...." > while others can use tactics to injure the attacker, if they are > physically and emotionally able. There are tradeoffs. The point > is to stay alive. > > There, I've said it. Can we go on to something new now? > > Neal B. > "One good thing about music, when it 'its you you feel no pain" (Bob Marley) *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
chrisa@azure.UUCP (Chris Andersen) (06/16/85)
> > o Why do men rape? > > Because there are men who are aroused at the thought of dominating > > and/or hurting women. If they were not aroused, they would commit > > simple violence, not rape. Real sickos can only experience sexual > > release *while committing rape*. The violent aspect of rape heightens > > the sexual act for these men. Rape is, then, sex in synergy with > > violence. > > The trouble with this attitude/outlook is that it is almost > completely dead-wrong. Uh, could you please tell us why it is wrong.
sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (06/17/85)
Jeanette (>) replies to Neal's (>>) posting by: > > o How do you defend yourself against a rapist? > > Depends on the woman. For some, submitting may be more apropriate, > > REFER to my posting beginning : > > "YOU BLITHERING IDIOT...." > > > while others can use tactics to injure the attacker, if they are > > physically and emotionally able. There are tradeoffs. The point > > is to stay alive. > > > > Neal B. I disagree completely with you there, Jeanette. I think there are times (rather than women) when submitting is more appropriate, like if the rapist is holding a gun to your head, or a knife to your throat. I disagree also with Neal. The points are to stay alive and not be raped, but if both cannot be attained, then the point will be to stay alive. -- Sophie Quigley {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
zubbie@ihlpl.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (06/19/85)
> Jeanette (>) replies to Neal's (>>) posting by: > > > > o How do you defend yourself against a rapist? > > > Depends on the woman. For some, submitting may be more apropriate, > > > > REFER to my posting beginning : > > > > "YOU BLITHERING IDIOT...." > > > > > while others can use tactics to injure the attacker, if they are > > > physically and emotionally able. There are tradeoffs. The point > > > is to stay alive. > > > > > > Neal B. > > I disagree completely with you there, Jeanette. I think there are times > (rather than women) when submitting is more appropriate, like if the > rapist is holding a gun to your head, or a knife to your throat. > > I disagree also with Neal. The points are to stay alive and not be raped, > but if both cannot be attained, then the point will be to stay alive. > -- > Sophie Quigley > {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie My point (overstated perhaps ) has two ideas behind it. 1) At least for me personally I can not and will not concede that there is a time to stop fighting for my self. Maybe this wont work for other women - OK fine then strugle fight get the attacker really riled up and then back off so he can do an even more thorough job on you. 2) Assume that you survive and the animal is caught, caged and brought to trial. Now comes the defence attorney: Q Did you resist and make knwon to my client that you, in fact, did not want to have sex with him. A Yes. Q Did you not then eventually peacefully an of you own free will allow my client to have sexual relations with you. A Yes but.. Thank you .... No more questions. After the trial ---- accused found not guilty. Here you sit raped, beaten totally sick inside and now the F***ing B****** that raped you is out, free to do it again to you or someone else and there you are with every one and their mother knowing you probably teased the poor guy along and then screamed rape after you had second thoughts about it - after the fact. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No this couldn't happen in our society with the conderful criminal justice system operating in the United States. The general public would only have tolook at the bruises and cuts and general battering you had taken to know that you had done all you could to defend yourself. No jury or judge would allow such a travesty to occur so maybe your right. jeanette l. zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie ================================================================================ These opinions belong to me! Handle with care - someone might think these are your also! ================================================================================
sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (06/20/85)
> 2) Assume that you survive and the animal is caught, caged and brought > to trial. > Now comes the defence attorney: > Q Did you resist and make knwon to my client that you, in fact, did not > want to have sex with him. > A Yes. > > Q Did you not then eventually peacefully an of you own free will allow > my client to have sexual relations with you. > > A Yes but.. > > Thank you .... No more questions. > > > After the trial ---- accused found not guilty. > You are simplifying things a little too much for my taste. As far as I know, no matter how archaic the US judicial system is, everyone gets a chance to state their case, including the prosecution. > Here you sit raped, beaten totally sick inside and now the F***ing > B****** that raped you is out, free to do it again to you or someone else > and there you are with every one and their mother knowing you probably > teased the poor guy along and then screamed rape after you had > second thoughts about it - after the fact. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > (additional sarcastic comments about the US judicial system) > > jeanette l. zobjeck > I'd still rather be humiliated and alive than gloriously dead. Furthermore there are other ways of retaliating against rape that do not necessarily involve the Judicial system. -- Sophie Quigley {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) (06/22/85)
In article <166@ihlpl.UUCP>, zubbie@ihlpl.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) writes: > My point (overstated perhaps ) has two ideas behind it. > > 1) At least for me personally I can not and will not concede that there > is a time to stop fighting for my self. Maybe this wont work for other > women - OK fine then strugle fight get the attacker really riled up > and then back off so he can do an even more thorough job on you. > > 2) Assume that you survive and the animal is caught, caged and brought > to trial. > Now comes the defence attorney: > Q Did you resist and make knwon to my client that you, in fact, did not > want to have sex with him. > A Yes. > > Q Did you not then eventually peacefully an of you own free will allow ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > my client to have sexual relations with you. > > A Yes but.. ^^^^^^^^^^ > > Thank you .... No more questions. > > > jeanette l. zobjeck > ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie > The problem with this scenario is that the victim is lying on the witness stand (or horribly confused). Choosing to do something because you're going to be killed or maimed if you don't is neither "peaceful" nor "of your own free will." The appropriate term is "forced." The main point of the discussion is, I believe, whether it's best to stop fighting back when you realize that you're going to be killed if you continue. This ties in with the "better dead than raped" issue, and the more general "death before dishonor" attitude. Everyone gets to make up his/her own mind about these issues, but try not to forget that none of the strategies for living through an encounter with a rapist are guaranteed -- ALL of them go horribly wrong from time to time. Smug netters who say, "All you have to do is ________" don't know what they're talking about. -- -- Robert Plamondon {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert
zubbie@ihlpl.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (06/28/85)
> The main point of the discussion is, I believe, whether it's best to stop > fighting back when you realize that you're going to be killed if you > continue. This ties in with the "better dead than raped" issue, and the > more general "death before dishonor" attitude. Everyone gets to make up > his/her own mind about these issues, but try not to forget that none of the > strategies for living through an encounter with a rapist are guaranteed -- > ALL of them go horribly wrong from time to time. Smug netters who say, "All > you have to do is ________" don't know what they're talking about. > -- > -- Robert Plamondon > {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert I was , I hoped, clear in stating that My feeling were my own, Everyone and anyone must make their own decisions. I am not saying that I would be better off dead than raped as I am obviously still alive and kicking (also posting volumes to the net (;-). The only thing I am saying is that experience hashelped me decide on the path I know is best for me. I honestly wish that no one ever had to have that type of experience nor face the question of deciding the answer to the question. jeanette l. zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie ================================================================================ These are my opinions! I worked for them and I intend to enjoy them. Handle carefully or else someone might think they are yours also. ================================================================================ ~~~ (o o) ************************* |WMWMWMWMWMWMWMWMWM /MWMW| * TO HELL WITH THE DOG * |MWMWMWMWMWMWMWMWMW | WMWM| * -*-*-*-*-*-*- * _________I_I________|/_____ * WATCH OUT FOR THE * * OWNER * ************************* :