linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (06/12/85)
I've seen a great deal about changing men's attitudes, but what about changing women's attitudes. Some of the worst experiences a woman can have on the job or at a university may be because of other (non-feminist) women. Examples: (1) Many women wear high heels and bleach their hair blond not because it's prettier or more comfortable, but because it will get them ahead professionally. When some anti-feminist men in management see these symbols they believe that these women are "nicer" and less aptly to cause trouble, therefore these women are often favored. Also, some women will bleach their hair blond to look more "white", in order to complete with dark skinned and minority women. There seem to be some male managers who fall all over blondes. (2) It is a common practice for non-feminist women in the workplace to start trouble (untrue gossip or complaints about a technical matter) against other women, in order to show anti-feminist managers that they will not push for promotions of more women. I saw a female manager do this by avoiding hiring a woman who applied for a job. I have seen two cases, during my career, of women who were rewarded highly for getting other women fired. If you're really technically competent it is easy to blow this type of person out of the water and defend yourself, but often the target may be a recently-promoted former secretary who doesn't have much self confidence yet. (3) There are some women who, at meetings, will make faces or snicker when another woman talks. If you confront the woman or complain about her, then you will be labelled as a trouble maker. Of course, you can ask her if she's not feeing well and if she needs an asprin. (4) One time in one of my classes, another graduate student (female) came in every week and sat next to the professor (we all sat at a table). She would wear provocative clothing, such as a sweatshirt and tights (with no shorts or skirt), very high heels, and lots of make-up. She never did any of the assignments. (and she criticized one of mine very strongly in class - luckily, the professor defended my work). One day, in the middle of a discussion, she burst out with "I don't see why we have to do all of this - it's all so DIFFICULT!". When it came time for grades - she got the same grade as mine. My complaint about it only aliented the professor, who essentially felt that it was none of my business. (Music composition classes are not graded by numerical scores like math classes). Does anyone have suggestions on how to influence women's attitudes towards other women, and on how to get the men to care about going on, without appearing to be a "complainer"? Linda Seltzer
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (06/12/85)
> I've seen a great deal about changing men's attitudes, but what about > changing women's attitudes. Some of the worst experiences a woman > can have on the job or at a university may be because of other > (non-feminist) women. Examples: > > (1) Many women wear high heels and bleach their hair blond not > because it's prettier or more comfortable, but because it will > get them ahead professionally. When some anti-feminist men in > management see these symbols they believe that these women > are "nicer" and less aptly to cause trouble, therefore these > women are often favored. Also, some women will bleach their > hair blond to look more "white", in order to complete with > dark skinned and minority women. There seem to be some > male managers who fall all over blondes. > Maybe it's just because I'm part of the post-Marilyn Monroe generation, but if I were influenced on the job by how a woman looked, blonde would *not* be the way. Just goes to show you that no matter how manipulative someone is, there's no way to tell what's going in someone else's head. Also, this notion that women, in trying to be blonde, are trying to look more "white" seems like paranoid crap. I have never met a white who was so dark that there was any question about his or her race. There are some male managers who fall all over blondes; there are plenty who fall all over brunettes; I know of a few female managers who have allowed a guy's good looks to affect job-related activities. > (2) It is a common practice for non-feminist women in the workplace > to start trouble (untrue gossip or complaints about a technical > matter) against other women, in order to show anti-feminist managers > that they will not push for promotions of more women. I saw a > female manager do this by avoiding hiring a woman who applied for > a job. I have seen two cases, during my career, of women who > were rewarded highly for getting other women fired. If you're > really technically competent it is easy to blow this type of > person out of the water and defend yourself, but often the > target may be a recently-promoted former secretary who doesn't have > much self confidence yet. > It is a common practice for people in general to gossip about others, and occasionally this leads to people getting fired. The rest of this assertion requires knowledge of intentions, which unless explicitly stated, may simply be paranoia. > (3) There are some women who, at meetings, will make faces or > snicker when another woman talks. If you confront the woman > or complain about her, then you will be labelled as a trouble > maker. Of course, you can ask her if she's not feeing well > and if she needs an asprin. > I've never been in a meeting like that. Where do you work? > (4) One time in one of my classes, another graduate student > (female) came in every week and sat next to the professor > (we all sat at a table). She would wear provocative clothing, > such as a sweatshirt and tights (with no shorts or skirt), > very high heels, and lots of make-up. She never did any of > the assignments. (and she criticized one of mine very strongly > in class - luckily, the professor defended my work). One > day, in the middle of a discussion, she burst out with "I > don't see why we have to do all of this - it's all so DIFFICULT!". > When it came time for grades - she got the same grade as mine. > My complaint about it only aliented the professor, who essentially > felt that it was none of my business. (Music composition classes > are not graded by numerical scores like math classes). > That's one of the problem with classes which are entirely subjective. Just possibly, she may have done work as good as yours. Who are you to say differently in a class like music composition? Incidentally, I remember a young woman in my freshman chemistry class at USC who pretended to be a dumb blonde; in fact, she was not --- she was real bright, but for some reason felt this approach would get her more attention from young men. (What a shame --- I can't *stand* women hiding their intelligence.) One other comment about Ms. Provocative in your class --- do you understand why some guys have a hard time taking a woman seriously? For a lot of guys, Ms. Provocative has been the norm, not the exception. Is it possible the biggest enemy of women's liberation is women who aren't competent to deal with men on any level except as sex kitten? > Does anyone have suggestions on how to influence women's > attitudes towards other women, and on how to get the men > to care about going on, without appearing to be > a "complainer"? > > Linda Seltzer Do the best job you can, and don't go looking for your problems in other people.
mary@bunker.UUCP (Mary Shurtleff) (06/13/85)
> I've seen a great deal about changing men's attitudes, but what about > changing women's attitudes. Some of the worst experiences a woman > can have on the job or at a university may be because of other > (non-feminist) women. Examples: > > (1) Many women wear high heels and bleach their hair blond not > because it's prettier or more comfortable, but because it will > get them ahead professionally. > > (2) It is a common practice for non-feminist women in the workplace > to start trouble (untrue gossip or complaints about a technical > matter) against other women, in order to show anti-feminist managers > that they will not push for promotions of more women. > > (3) There are some women who, at meetings, will make faces or > snicker when another woman talks. > > (4) One time in one of my classes, another graduate student > (female) came in every week and sat next to the professor > (we all sat at a table). She would wear provocative clothing, > such as a sweatshirt and tights (with no shorts or skirt), > very high heels, and lots of make-up. She never did any of > the assignments. (and she criticized one of mine very strongly > in class - luckily, the professor defended my work). One > day, in the middle of a discussion, she burst out with "I > don't see why we have to do all of this - it's all so DIFFICULT!". > When it came time for grades - she got the same grade as mine. > My complaint about it only aliented the professor, who essentially > felt that it was none of my business. (Music composition classes > are not graded by numerical scores like math classes). Let's not forget the "queen bee" syndrome, when an established woman both refuses to mentor and actively holds back other, younger women on their way up. In doing so, she is perpetuating the very situation she most likely had to fight on HER way up. I recall a conversation with a co-worker (also female) about a prospective new hire to our group, also a woman. My co-worker said "I hope she doesn't get it--we have enough girls around here already". I was appalled--I was hired after she was, and now wonder if perhaps the other women already in the group felt that way about ME. It's pretty discouraging when you consider the good that could be accomplished by more experienced women in the workplace helping their less-experienced peers rather than hindering them. > > Linda Seltzer Mary Shurtleff
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (06/14/85)
> > I've seen a great deal about changing men's attitudes, but what about > > changing women's attitudes. Some of the worst experiences a woman > > can have on the job or at a university may be because of other > > (non-feminist) women. Examples: > > > Let's not forget the "queen bee" syndrome, when an established woman > both refuses to mentor and actively holds back other, younger women > on their way up. In doing so, she is perpetuating the very situation > she most likely had to fight on HER way up. I recall a conversation with > a co-worker (also female) about a prospective new hire to our group, also > a woman. My co-worker said "I hope she doesn't get it--we have enough > girls around here already". I was appalled--I was hired after she was, > and now wonder if perhaps the other women already in the group felt that > way about ME. It's pretty discouraging when you consider the good that > could be accomplished by more experienced women in the workplace helping > their less-experienced peers rather than hindering them. > > > > > Linda Seltzer > > Mary Shurtleff As long as women perceive that they can only have power through the men above them, they will remain in competition with each other for the favor of those men. Only when women can perceive of having their own power can they stop competing among themselves. Sunny -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (06/20/85)
I had a recent experience that underscores this point: I had to fly to USENIX from Washington, DC (where I was on business), and the only flight at a good time was a two-hop route on Continental. On the first leg of this flight (Dulles to Denver) the copilot on my DC-9/Super-80 was a woman. As I was leaving the plane, the pilot flung open the cockpit door; a flight attendant--a woman in her early 50's, I'd guess--commented on how easily he had opened the door: ``Wow, with one hand! It's nice to know there's at least *one* MAN in the cockpit!'' A man standing behind her cried out ``Chauvinist!'' As near as I can tell, the copilot at least pretended to ignore the attendant's comment. On the second leg of my trip, my flight attendant was a football player who had just tried out for the Dallas Cowboys. He was very good, and clearly felt unthreatened by having what was until recently a ``woman's job''. -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall
edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (06/20/85)
> As long as women perceive that they can only have power through the men > above them, they will remain in competition with each other for the favor > of those men. Only when women can perceive of having their own power can > they stop competing among themselves. > > Sunny > -- > {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) I'd agree, Sunny, but only if you substitute ``people'' for both ``men'' and ``women''. Men play these same end-justifies-the-means competitive games with each other, though in a sexist environment women make easier targets. Some women are getting just as good at playing these games-- and often find their sisters to be easy targets, too. The solution is not to be found in making women just as powerful as men, for the power some men have is an inhuman power, dehumanizing the controller and the controllee alike. It saddens me to see women struggling to be just like men. The nature of patriarchal power is the same no matter which sex has the reins--I hardly see any gain in women learning to perpetuate it. And I think, Sunny, that you would agree with me on this. -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall
wong@rtech.UUCP (J. Wong) (07/07/85)
> On the second leg of my trip, my flight attendant was a football player > who had just tried out for the Dallas Cowboys. He was very good, and > clearly felt unthreatened by having what was until recently a ``woman's > job''. > > -Ed Hall How come all the `stewards' I've ever seen are always in first class instead of doing the grunt work in economy? -- J. Wong ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!wong **************************************************************** You start a conversation, you can't even finish it. You're talking alot, but you're not saying anything. When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed. Say something once, why say it again. - David Byrne