frye@cuuxa.UUCP (frye) (05/28/85)
Is Chuck Ferrara into bondage?(-:)Never mind, I don't wanna know. Self defence may have to get violent in some instances. I just feel that if I have to get violent to defend myself, the other guy's gonna wish he hadn't made me stoop to his level. I believe it was Sarah Dugan ( please correst me if I'm wrong) who said that there is a difference between having the means and actually using it. I personally feel that if a lady shoots a rapist in the knee and (please take of the high heels next) gets the hell outa there, she won't have too much trouble with that clown any more. I also believe that the women that we are thinking about on the subject would not just blow someone away just to be doing something (i.e. she got bored). The women who would do that don't deserve our concern. As to legal ramifications--- I personally would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, and would tell that feeling to the judge. Also, I have taught several women how to shoot. Most have the attitude that would cause them to shoot only if the assailant followed when the lady tried to escape. I like that attitude and would teach a person of that persuasion more readily than someone with a harder more agressive attitude. I think this will probably cover Sanjay Tikku's posting about how I'd feel to occupy "Bernies" shoes. I know a guy who was riding public transportation and also was accosted (sp?) with the intent to relieve him of his money. When he came up with "iron" instead, his assailants suddenly disappeared out the back door. One almost lit himself off on the third rail. My friend never had to fire a shot. Bernie probably wouldn't have had to either but the only one who knows is him. I feel that one should do whatever needs to be done to survive. I don't think our state and federal governments care whether or not a women gets raped but, I do. As I said before, I love women 'cause I owe one nine months carrying charges and the milk bill. Sorry to make this thing so long. Also sorry to make it read a bit on the scattered side. I've been interrupted about 3 times while writing this thing---Now to go home---where's home? Oh, yeah. Don't drink the milk? Sal Who? -Tom Frye-
ee171ael@sdcc3.UUCP (GEOFFREY KIM) (06/13/85)
The best means of self defense, for a woman being raped, is a good swift eyejab. It takes hardly any skill and hardly any strength. Any weak woman can maim a would be rapist with a quick double eye jab. Of course you would suffer from guilt--blinding a person for life, but hey its better than being raped. Remember, get a little courage and ZZZZZAPPPPP. Poke the person in the eye. Larry G. Kim
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (06/14/85)
> The best means of self defense, for a woman being raped, is a good swift > eyejab. It takes hardly any skill and hardly any strength. Any weak > woman can maim a would be rapist with a quick double eye jab. Of course > you would suffer from guilt--blinding a person for life, but hey its better > than being raped. > > Remember, get a little courage and ZZZZZAPPPPP. > Poke the person in the eye. > > Larry G. Kim That's right... the 100 lb weakling with her arms pinned against the asphalt by the 200 lb guy who's got his weight over her so she can't move them at all. Why are we still going around in circles? There IS no defense in many cases. The only way to end rape is for all the bigger more dominant men in the world to recognize the simple fact that they haven't got the right to do that to women. Men have to respect women, and stop treating them like 2nd class citizens. The point is that rape is not a women's issue. Women have very little to do or say about it, because WOMEN CAN NEVER STOP RAPE! Only MEN can STOP RAPE-ing. Women don't have the strength nor power to stop it. Sunny -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
sed408@ihlpg.UUCP (s. dugan) (06/17/85)
> > Remember, get a little courage and ZZZZZAPPPPP. > > Poke the person in the eye. > > > > Larry G. Kim > > That's right... the 100 lb weakling with her arms pinned against the asphalt > by the 200 lb guy who's got his weight over her so she can't move them at all. > Why are we still going around in circles? There IS no defense in many cases. > The only way to end rape is for all the bigger more dominant men in the > world to recognize the simple fact that they haven't got the right to do that > to women. Men have to respect women, and stop treating them like 2nd class > citizens. The point is that rape is not a women's issue. Women have very > little to do or say about it, because WOMEN CAN NEVER STOP RAPE! > Only MEN can STOP RAPE-ing. Women don't have the strength nor power to stop it. > Sunny > -- > {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) While I agree, whole-heartedly, that men don't have the right to rape women, I also think that there is something we, as women, can do about it. There are a lot of things, actually: 1) Educate as many men as possible about our (women as a group) feelings about rape. 2) Learn to defend ourselves. Not all potential rapists are twice as big and twice as strong as their intended victims. Intimidation is usually their biggest weapon (excluding guns, knives, etc). Learning how to kick a man in the groin, shins, instep or whatever it takes may not only save your sanity, it might even save your life. 3) Raise our sons and daughters to have respect for EVERYONE. We might not wipe out rape in our lifetimes, but we might be able to put a big dent in it. I finally learned how to defend myself and I'm glad I did! I managed to fight off three attacks in two months! I don't know if they were attempted rapes or attempted robberies. I don't think it really matters. The point is that I learned to value myself enough to fight for my dignity. After submitting to two rapes, it really helped restore my self-esteem to know that I wasn't forever a victim. That was actually the best therapy I had, although I don't actually recomend it. -- Sarah E. Dugan "LET ME OUT OF HERE - I WANT TO GO HOME!" ########################################################################### # AT&T Bell Labs IH 1D-408 The Forest (home) # # Naperville-Wheaton Rd. 1353 Crab Apple Court Apt. 101 # # Naperville, Illinois 60566 Naperville, Illinois 60540 # # (312) 979 - 5545 (312) 355 - 0445 # ###########################################################################
sed408@ihlpg.UUCP (s. dugan) (06/17/85)
From sed408 Mon Jun 17 08:12:29 1985 To: ihnp4!oddjob!gargoyle!cs1 Subject: Re: rape and other assorted stuff Cheryl, I guess I left out some important information in my postings. All the violence in my life occurred while I was living in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I lived in a pretty rough neighborhood at the time because I was really broke. I had left my husband because of the violence in our relationship. I had very little money and even less self esteem. I was a scared litte mouse and I think the second rapist picked up on that. The other times (the ones that I fought off) occurred in dark, lonely places very late at night. I was ggoing through counselling at the time and managed the courage and self-esteem to fight back. You can't immagine how effective a knee in the groin is until you actually use it!!!! No, Naperville is not a rough place. I feel perfectly comfortable walking around my neighborhood at 11:00 or 12:00 at night! After living in Minneapolis and being afraid even in the day time, this is a real treat. I was born here in Naperville. I moved to Minnesota to go to college and stayed nine years. I just moved back here two years ago. Boy has it changed! Still, it's good to be back. Thanks for the good thoughts. A spell would be really nice. I know a lot of people who could use it! Thanks, Sarah E. Dugan "You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince." .. -- Sarah E. Dugan "Easy Does It, But *DO* It" ########################################################################### # AT&T Bell Labs IH 1D-408 The Forest (home) # # Naperville-Wheaton Rd. 1353 Crab Apple Court Apt. 101 # # Naperville, Illinois 60566 Naperville, Illinois 60540 # # (312) 979 - 5545 (312) 355 - 0445 # ###########################################################################
sed408@ihlpg.UUCP (s. dugan) (06/17/85)
Oops! I goofed. I just posted a message to Cheryl (I think she's at the U of Chicago, but I'm not sure). I sent it out over the net because my net couldn't find her for some reason. I meant to add a line or two to it in explaination. Sorry about that. Anyway, what I said may help clear up some of my previous postings. -- Sarah E. Dugan "Easy Does It, But *DO* It" ########################################################################### # AT&T Bell Labs IH 1D-408 The Forest (home) # # Naperville-Wheaton Rd. 1353 Crab Apple Court Apt. 101 # # Naperville, Illinois 60566 Naperville, Illinois 60540 # # (312) 979 - 5545 (312) 355 - 0445 # ###########################################################################
todd@SCINEWS.UUCP (Todd Jones) (06/19/85)
> world to recognize the simple fact that they haven't got the right to do that > to women. Men have to respect women, and stop treating them like 2nd class > citizens. The point is that rape is not a women's issue. Women have very > little to do or say about it, because WOMEN CAN NEVER STOP RAPE! > Only MEN can STOP RAPE-ing. Women don't have the strength nor power to stop it. > Sunny > -- > {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) Oh Sunny! Don't look now, but I think you may be about to get flamed by all those smaller, less dominant, less strong and less powerful women. Better break out the asbestos suit! ||||| || || [ O-O ] Todd Jones \ ^ / {decvax,akgua}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!todd | _ | |___| FLAME ME IF YOU DARE!
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (06/21/85)
> > The best means of self defense, for a woman being raped, is a good swift > > eyejab. It takes hardly any skill and hardly any strength. Any weak > > woman can maim a would be rapist with a quick double eye jab. Of course > > you would suffer from guilt--blinding a person for life, but hey its better > > than being raped. > > > > Remember, get a little courage and ZZZZZAPPPPP. > > Poke the person in the eye. > > > > Larry G. Kim > > That's right... the 100 lb weakling with her arms pinned against the asphalt > by the 200 lb guy who's got his weight over her so she can't move them at all. > Why are we still going around in circles? There IS no defense in many cases. > The only way to end rape is for all the bigger more dominant men in the > world to recognize the simple fact that they haven't got the right to do that > to women. Men have to respect women, and stop treating them like 2nd class > citizens. The point is that rape is not a women's issue. Women have very > little to do or say about it, because WOMEN CAN NEVER STOP RAPE! > Only MEN can STOP RAPE-ing. Women don't have the strength nor power to stop it. > Sunny > -- > {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) Gee, Sunny, I think you need to keep up with rapidly improving technology. Samuel Colt perfected a high-tech device just last century which makes a 100 pound weakling (regardless of sex) the equal of a 200 pound ogre. It's called a firearm. Go ahead! Improve the species! Scatter whatever it is that a rapist keeps in his brain cavity all over the sidewalk! "God made men --- Col. Colt made them equal."
gmack@denelvx.UUCP (Gregg Mackenzie) (06/22/85)
> Only MEN can STOP RAPE-ing. Women don't have the strength nor power to stop it. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sunny Sunny, Both you and Ginger have indicated that it is our (men's) resposibility to solve the problem. I have yet to see any suggestions from anyone, aside from the obvious legal and legislative solutions. Forgive my ignorance, please. However, I'm sure I'm not the only one. Gregg Mackenzie denelcor!gmack
edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (06/24/85)
From Clayton Cramer, quoting Sunny@sun: > > That's right... the 100 lb weakling with her arms pinned against the asphalt > > by the 200 lb guy who's got his weight over her so she can't move them at all. > > Why are we still going around in circles? There IS no defense in many cases. > > The only way to end rape is for all the bigger more dominant men in the > > world to recognize the simple fact that they haven't got the right to do that > > to women. Men have to respect women, and stop treating them like 2nd class > > citizens. The point is that rape is not a women's issue. Women have very > > little to do or say about it, because WOMEN CAN NEVER STOP RAPE! > > Only MEN can STOP RAPE-ing. Women don't have the strength nor power to stop it. > > Sunny > Gee, Sunny, I think you need to keep up with rapidly improving technology. > Samuel Colt perfected a high-tech device just last century which makes a > 100 pound weakling (regardless of sex) the equal of a 200 pound ogre. It's > called a firearm. Go ahead! Improve the species! Scatter whatever it is > that a rapist keeps in his brain cavity all over the sidewalk! > > "God made men --- Col. Colt made them equal." That's right, Clayton. Carry a gun so that the 200lb guy can blow you away after he finishes with you. What you gun-loving folks seem to ignore is the fact that it takes a free hand and a bit of elbow room, not to mention some time to aim. The chances of you managing to pull out a gun and shoot someone who is attempting to--and capable of-- physically overwhelming you is a lot smaller than the chance that they'll wrest the gun away from you first. Why arm your assailant if they aren't armed already? -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall
zubbie@ihlpl.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (06/25/85)
> Gee, Sunny, I think you need to keep up with rapidly improving technology. > Samuel Colt perfected a high-tech device just last century which makes a > 100 pound weakling (regardless of sex) the equal of a 200 pound ogre. It's > called a firearm. Go ahead! Improve the species! Scatter whatever it is > that a rapist keeps in his brain cavity all over the sidewalk! > > "God made men --- Col. Colt made them equal." > The apparent lack of the use of that same cranial cavity and the ocular facilty with which it is equipped seem to allow this kind of reasoning to flourish.(sp) Since most people who own guns for self defense have difficulty hitting the side of a barn while on a firing range how do you expect them to be "equalized" in a situation where everything which happens moves so terribly fast. From what I have heard and read in the news accounts of rapes the majority of attacks begin from behind and so the "colt equalizer" is of little or no use at all unless the individual is walking along with the weapon in her hand, safety off, and a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. Maybe I'm wrong though...... Tell you what.... Arm 100 women in any city you like, or small town, and then walk up and say something like "Nice evening isnt BANG". jeanette l. zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie ================================================================================ The preceding thoughts have been brought to you through the courtesy of Murgatroyd's Gun Shop. The opinions are my own. ================================================================================
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (06/27/85)
> From Clayton Cramer, quoting Sunny@sun: > > > That's right... the 100 lb weakling with her arms pinned against the asphalt > > > by the 200 lb guy who's got his weight over her so she can't move them at all. > > > Why are we still going around in circles? There IS no defense in many cases. > > > The only way to end rape is for all the bigger more dominant men in the > > > world to recognize the simple fact that they haven't got the right to do that > > > to women. Men have to respect women, and stop treating them like 2nd class > > > citizens. The point is that rape is not a women's issue. Women have very > > > little to do or say about it, because WOMEN CAN NEVER STOP RAPE! > > > Only MEN can STOP RAPE-ing. Women don't have the strength nor power to stop it. > > > Sunny > > > Gee, Sunny, I think you need to keep up with rapidly improving technology. > > Samuel Colt perfected a high-tech device just last century which makes a > > 100 pound weakling (regardless of sex) the equal of a 200 pound ogre. It's > > called a firearm. Go ahead! Improve the species! Scatter whatever it is > > that a rapist keeps in his brain cavity all over the sidewalk! > > > > "God made men --- Col. Colt made them equal." > > That's right, Clayton. Carry a gun so that the 200lb guy can blow you > away after he finishes with you. What you gun-loving folks seem to > ignore is the fact that it takes a free hand and a bit of elbow room, > not to mention some time to aim. The chances of you managing to pull > out a gun and shoot someone who is attempting to--and capable of-- > physically overwhelming you is a lot smaller than the chance that > they'll wrest the gun away from you first. Why arm your assailant > if they aren't armed already? > > -Ed Hall > decvax!randvax!edhall This is inconsistent. If you need "time to aim", the rapist is far enough away that you still have "a free hand and a bit of elbow room"; if he's close enough to be a threat to you bare handed, you need no time to aim. Also, I doubt most rapists would continue an attack against someone who demonstrates a capability and willingness to kill. Rape and other violent crimes are deterred almost daily in this country by the use of firearms; news accounts of such actions are quite common.
sigma@usl.UUCP (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) (06/27/85)
>> that a rapist keeps in his brain cavity all over the sidewalk! >> >> "God made men --- Col. Colt made them equal." > >That's right, Clayton. Carry a gun so that the 200lb guy can blow you >away after he finishes with you. What you gun-loving folks seem to >ignore is the fact that it takes a free hand and a bit of elbow room, >not to mention some time to aim. The chances of you managing to pull >out a gun and shoot someone who is attempting to--and capable of-- >physically overwhelming you is a lot smaller than the chance that >they'll wrest the gun away from you first. Why arm your assailant >if they aren't armed already? > > -Ed Hall > decvax!randvax!edhall Naw... The rapist does not appear by a scroll of create monster :-) but follows the victim for a while. If the victim is busy listening to Maddona (sp?) or any other noise on the Yuppie-man (walkman for us with toyotas) then she can not sense the man coming for her. There are exceptions, like in an elevator/narrow corridor, jump from a dark spot, etc, but, *i think* that most rapists follow their victims for a while before attacking. Then, Col. Colt can make the difference. I doubt if any sunday rapist would want to go on if he saw the iron or heard a blast from it. If you have to wait to fight body-to-body, the Colt won't do any good, though. Act quickly... Spiros (still no comments on posting regarding Orientals. Is everyone ignoring me?)
desjardins@h-sc1.UUCP (marie desjardins) (06/28/85)
> > Gee, Sunny, I think you need to keep up with rapidly improving technology. > Samuel Colt perfected a high-tech device just last century which makes a > 100 pound weakling (regardless of sex) the equal of a 200 pound ogre. It's > called a firearm. Go ahead! Improve the species! Scatter whatever it is > that a rapist keeps in his brain cavity all over the sidewalk! > > "God made men --- Col. Colt made them equal." > I would think that by the time a woman realized she was about to be raped the 200 pound ogre would have already grabbed her. I sincerely doubt he would give his victim even enough time to try to run if he could help it. And I would be scared shitless he would just grab the gun out of my purse and threaten me with it. (I know, I'm a spineless wimp.) And as many people have said before, I'm not sure that most people are really capable of shooting someone, with no hesitation (and she who hesitates is lost). I don't think I am (yep, a real jellyfish). I don't know what the answer is for people like me. A self-defense class would certainly be a good first step. marie
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (06/28/85)
> > Gee, Sunny, I think you need to keep up with rapidly improving technology. > > Samuel Colt perfected a high-tech device just last century which makes a > > 100 pound weakling (regardless of sex) the equal of a 200 pound ogre. It's > > called a firearm. Go ahead! Improve the species! Scatter whatever it is > > that a rapist keeps in his brain cavity all over the sidewalk! > > > > "God made men --- Col. Colt made them equal." > > > > Since most people who own guns for self defense have difficulty hitting > the side of a barn while on a firing range how do you expect them to > be "equalized" in a situation where everything which happens moves so > terribly fast. > I'm sorry you know such terrible shots. They must be pretty bad, because I don't consider myself a particularly capable marksman, and I have no problem hitting a rapist-sized target at 15 yards. More important, if you can't shoot a rapist at the more realistic distance of five feet, I doubt you can drive a car successfully either. > From what I have heard and read in the news accounts of rapes the majority > of attacks begin from behind and so the "colt equalizer" is of little or > no use at all unless the individual is walking along with the weapon in > her hand, safety off, and a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. > From what I have read, a great many rapes (and a lot of homicides against women) occur during residential burglaries. I have also read that rapists frequently approach the victim before the rape and see whether the reaction they get is a reaction of fear or not. Incidentally, the only useful way to carry a semiauto pistol is with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. ("Excuse me sir, I need to pull back the slide and chamber a round. Could you please wait a moment?") > Maybe I'm wrong though...... > > Tell you what.... Arm 100 women in any city you like, or small town, > and then walk up and say something like "Nice evening isnt BANG". > > jeanette l. zobjeck > ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie > Gee, when I carry a firearm, I don't shoot people for saying "Nice evening". A woman who has been raped is probably a little more hair-trigger than a woman who has not been raped --- even then, I sincerely doubt that any but the most tweaked are going to shoot a man just for saying "Nice evening", anymore then they are going to spray him with tear gas.
crs@lanl.ARPA (06/28/85)
> > > > Gee, Sunny, I think you need to keep up with rapidly improving technology. > > Samuel Colt perfected a high-tech device just last century which makes a > > 100 pound weakling (regardless of sex) the equal of a 200 pound ogre. It's > > called a firearm. Go ahead! Improve the species! Scatter whatever it is > > that a rapist keeps in his brain cavity all over the sidewalk! > > > > "God made men --- Col. Colt made them equal." > > > > I would think that by the time a woman realized she was about to be raped > the 200 pound ogre would have already grabbed her. I sincerely doubt he > would give his victim even enough time to try to run if he could help it. > And I would be scared shitless he would just grab the gun out of my purse > and threaten me with it. (I know, I'm a spineless wimp.) And as many > people have said before, I'm not sure that most people are really capable > of shooting someone, with no hesitation (and she who hesitates is lost). > I don't think I am (yep, a real jellyfish). I don't know what the answer > is for people like me. A self-defense class would certainly be a good > first step. > > > marie While I enjoy shooting (mostly skeet) I'm afraid that I agree with some of the posting that suggest a handgun would be of little use to a potential rape victim *on the street* for the reasons that Marie and others have suggested. For those rapes that occur after the rapist has broken into you home, it may be a different matter. I would, however, suggest a shotgun loaded with small shot (say # 9) rather than a pistol for several reasons. 1. Most people, rapists included, are likely to realize that they are more likely to be hit by a shotgun wielding resident than by one with a handgun and so may be more likely to give up their plans. 2. If it comes to a situation where actually shooting is called for, the likelihood of hitting the target *is* greater with the shotgun. 3. While the small shot that I recommended should be more than adequate at the close range involved, unlike a solid bullet, it is unlikely to penetrate your walls and, perhaps, your next door neighbor or some passer by. If you do choose to use any firearm for self defense, for your own sake and that of your family and neighbors LEARN TO USE IT and PRACTICE at a range so that you become sufficiently competent to use it without blowing your foot off or worse AND sufficiently confident that, if it becomes necessary to defend yourself, you will neither rush and shoot some late returning member of your family not delay until a real housebreaker takes it away from you. All too often people buy a gun for self defense and then assume that it's mere possesion will do the job with no effort on their part -- the view that is so often portrayed on TV. Don't believe it. Owning a firearm is a big responsibility -- treat it accordingly. One last thing -- Make sure, at the very least, that every member of your family including children go to the range and see just what a gun can do and why, therefore, it is not a toy. The best safety devices are knowledgeable and careful people. Get someone who knows to show you how to handle it safely -- ALL OF YOU. -- Charlie Sorsby ...!{cmcl2,ihnp4,...}!lanl!crs crs@lanl.arpa
zubbie@ihlpl.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (06/29/85)
> > Rape and other violent crimes are deterred almost daily in this country > by the use of firearms; news accounts of such actions are quite common. There are also accounts in the news as often of people being wounded or killed by their own weapons which were takenfrom them by their attacker and this number also includes police officers and military personnel who are supposedly better trained in the use of firearms and self-defense techniques than any ** avaerage ** citizen. As nearly as I can determine in real-time conversations (face to face) with many different people the general type of individual who makes the above statements falls into one of two groups: 1) A devout member of the NRA complete with pro-firearms bumper stickers. 2) Someone who has not given thought to the "wild-west theory" of social relationships. To paraphrase a "fictional charater" Lazarus Long held that if everyone wore a gun as a matter of course he would just as soon live where there were no people. Of course He held that preferance anyhow so it might not be of much value. ~~~ (o o) ************************ jeanette l. zobjeck |WMWMWMWMWMWMWMWMWM /MWMW| * CONSERVE WATER * ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie |MWMWMWMWMWMWMWMWMW | WMWM| * -*-*-*-*-*-*- * _________I_I________|/_____ * SHOWER WITH A * * FRIEND * ************************ -- ~~~ (o o) ************************ jeanette l. zobjeck |WMWMWMWMWMWMWMWMWM /MWMW| * CONSERVE WATER * ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie |MWMWMWMWMWMWMWMWMW | WMWM| * -*-*-*-*-*-*- * _________I_I________|/_____ * SHOWER WITH A * * FRIEND * ************************
edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (06/29/85)
> > Only MEN can STOP RAPE-ing. Women don't have the strength nor power to stop it. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sunny > > Sunny, > > Both you and Ginger have indicated that it is our (men's) resposibility to > solve the problem. I have yet to see any suggestions from anyone, aside > from the obvious legal and legislative solutions. Forgive my ignorance, > please. However, I'm sure I'm not the only one. > > Gregg Mackenzie > denelcor!gmack She just told you how, Gregg, though indirectly. For several years, now, feminists have been claiming that rape is nothing more than an extreme case of attitudes that are common in much of the male population. These are the attitudes that women are somehow meant to be subservient to men (keeping their houses, having their children, submitting to their sexual needs). These attitudes fit in with the male role, a role in which the ability to dominate figures quite heavily. Also, there are a set of myths about rape, many of which we've discussed at length in net.women. And, perhaps most pernicious of all, there is a cultural tradition of violence in our society, an attraction to it, and even the tendency to regard violence as potentually sexually arousing. Some studies have been done--several have been mentioned in net.women-- and more than just feminists are beginning to wonder if perhaps the attitude of rape is widespread. I think it is. It is these things--all of them--that need to change within the minds of men before rape will end. When Sunny talked about how ``Only MEN can stop rape,'' she meant you and me, not just the criminal rapist. The attitudes, roles, myths, and predilection for violence in men in general must end. Men, in their dealings with themselves and with other men, are the ones with the opportunity to change things. For the most part the ``legal and legislative'' mechanisms are already in place, at least in those states who have laws preventing abuse of rape victims during trials (if you've ever witnessed this sort of thing you'll agree there is no better word for it than ``abuse''). The law can only do so much. It can't un-rape, nor can it ever fully deter rape. But, collectively, men *can* stop rape. -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall
jla@usl.UUCP (Joe Arceneaux) (07/01/85)
There has been an amount of discussion concerning the
usefulness/dangerousness of carrying a gun for defense against
potential rapists. What I am about to say applies also, of course,
to protection against other dangers.
The first question to ask one's self is "Do I indeed have a fairly
reliable weapon for my defense?" and if the answer is no, then one
should avoid to the maximum extent potentially harmful situations. I
think it is stupid to ignore such a basic question, as apparently
many people do.
A gun may be such a weapon of defense, and so the issue of whether or
not to carry one is part of this first question. Some people may be
quite capable of using such a weapon, while certainly many are not.
I suggest that persons considering carrying a gun should do their
best to determine which category they fall into. Try the following
method.
Go out and buy a nice water pistol. Place it on your person where
you would carry the real thing. Then get a friend to go through
various forms of attacks upon you, and see if you can squirt the
friend. Make the acted-out scenarios as realistic and varied as
possible. Decide on the basis of the results.
If the answer to the first question is "yes," then one must next
determine in one's mind a line. A virtual line, such that if anyone
crosses it one will take immediate, unhesitating action. Such a line
will depend on the situation, as perhaps will the action. An example
might be: a man hassles a woman through the course of the evening,
and the woman decides that IF the guy puts his hands on her she will
hit him. The idea is to have a predetermined course of action, and a
predetermined point at which it will be applied, no matter what.
This can keep one from hesitating until it's too late.
--
Joe Arceneaux
Lafayette, LA
{akgua, ut-sally}!usl!jlahhs@hou2h.UUCP (H.SHARP) (07/01/85)
is in the parking lot. The attacker(s) either waits in the car or in a van parked nearby (pulling the victim into the van), or else hides underneath the car itself. The form of self - defense a person wishes to use is up to that individual; however, I believe awareness of a situation and good sense must be used in all situations. This gives us all at least a fighting chance. Take Back The Night!
crs@lanl.ARPA (07/01/85)
> > Since most people who own guns for self defense have difficulty hitting > > the side of a barn while on a firing range how do you expect them to > > be "equalized" in a situation where everything which happens moves so > > terribly fast. > > > I'm sorry you know such terrible shots. They must be pretty bad, because > I don't consider myself a particularly capable marksman, and I have no > problem hitting a rapist-sized target at 15 yards. More important, if > you can't shoot a rapist at the more realistic distance of five feet, > I doubt you can drive a car successfully either. > The thing that bothers me about this is *how do you know it is a rapist* at 5 feet? I wouldn't imagine that the rapist is going to make it any more obvious than necessary until close enough to grap his quarry. A well trained shooter with a very accessible weapon may be fast enouth to respond in time under those conditions. Unfortunately, too many people don't bother to learn how to use it at all, much less become proficient with it. Besides, many of our bigger urban areas, where I assume a high percentage of rapes occur, have the most restrictive gun laws -- we wouldn't want law abiding citizens going around injuring our criminals, would we? (Criminals aren't bound by gun laws -- if, after all, you plan to commit murder or armed robbery, the illegality of your gun is the least of your worries. But that is another story.) I've already suggested a shotgun rather than a handgun for defense in your home in an earlier article. While I believe that most, if not all, anti-gun laws are, at best, misguided, I'm also not convinced that having a lot of undisciplined, untrained and largely incompetent people running about the streets is a good idea. (And, yes, I know that is inconsistent.) All opinions are, of course, only mine. -- Charlie Sorsby ...!{cmcl2,ihnp4,...}!lanl!crs crs@lanl.arpa
crs@lanl.ARPA (07/02/85)
Oops! I let several oversights and typos slip into my recent followup. I hope the following translation isn't too late to help it make sense. > The thing that bothers me about this is *how do you know it is a > rapist* at 5 feet? I wouldn't imagine that the rapist is going to > make it any more obvious than necessary until close enough to grap his grap = grab > quarry. A well trained shooter with a very accessible weapon may be > fast enouth to respond in time under those conditions. Unfortunately, > too many people don't bother to learn how to use it at all, much less > become proficient with it. "It", of course, is the gun. > . > . > . > > While I believe that most, if not all, anti-gun laws are, at best, > misguided, I'm also not convinced that having a lot of undisciplined, > untrained and largely incompetent people running about the streets is > a good idea. (And, yes, I know that is inconsistent.) That should have read: "...running about the streets with guns..." > > All opinions are, of course, only mine. > They still are. I apologize for any inconvenience to net readers -- I'll try to do better next time. -- Charlie Sorsby ...!{cmcl2,ihnp4,...}!lanl!crs crs@lanl.arpa
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (07/02/85)
Quote without comment: "Alone in her Brady, Tex., home, Pauline Parker answered a knock at the door and was attacked by a man with a brick. Though battered, the elderly woman pulled a pistol and fired, sending the assailant fleeing. (The Standard Times, San Angelo, Tex. 2/21)" "A Cleveland, Tenn., woman was seated in her car in a shopping mall when a man attempted to steal her purse. When she pulled a gun, he fled. Police arrested and charged a suspect for attempted grand larceny. (The Daily Banner, Cleveland, Tenn. 3/21)" "An Ithaca, N.Y., college student was cutting through an alley on his way home late at night when two men jumped him. The student pulled a licensed gun and shot and wounded one assailant. The would-be robbers were arrested, and the student was not charged. (The Star-Gazette, Elmira, N.Y. 3/18)" The above quotes from "The Armed Citizen" page of American Hunter, July 1985 issue. > > From Clayton Cramer, quoting Sunny@sun: > > > > That's right... the 100 lb weakling with her arms pinned against the asphalt > > > > by the 200 lb guy who's got his weight over her so she can't move them at all. > > > > Why are we still going around in circles? There IS no defense in many cases. > > > > The only way to end rape is for all the bigger more dominant men in the > > > > world to recognize the simple fact that they haven't got the right to do that > > > > to women. Men have to respect women, and stop treating them like 2nd class > > > > citizens. The point is that rape is not a women's issue. Women have very > > > > little to do or say about it, because WOMEN CAN NEVER STOP RAPE! > > > > Only MEN can STOP RAPE-ing. Women don't have the strength nor power to stop it. > > > > Sunny > > > > > Gee, Sunny, I think you need to keep up with rapidly improving technology. > > > Samuel Colt perfected a high-tech device just last century which makes a > > > 100 pound weakling (regardless of sex) the equal of a 200 pound ogre. It's > > > called a firearm. Go ahead! Improve the species! Scatter whatever it is > > > that a rapist keeps in his brain cavity all over the sidewalk! > > > > > > "God made men --- Col. Colt made them equal." > > > > That's right, Clayton. Carry a gun so that the 200lb guy can blow you > > away after he finishes with you. What you gun-loving folks seem to > > ignore is the fact that it takes a free hand and a bit of elbow room, > > not to mention some time to aim. The chances of you managing to pull > > out a gun and shoot someone who is attempting to--and capable of-- > > physically overwhelming you is a lot smaller than the chance that > > they'll wrest the gun away from you first. Why arm your assailant > > if they aren't armed already? > > > > -Ed Hall > > decvax!randvax!edhall > > This is inconsistent. If you need "time to aim", the rapist is far enough > away that you still have "a free hand and a bit of elbow room"; if he's > close enough to be a threat to you bare handed, you need no time to aim. > Also, I doubt most rapists would continue an attack against someone who > demonstrates a capability and willingness to kill. > > Rape and other violent crimes are deterred almost daily in this country > by the use of firearms; news accounts of such actions are quite common. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (07/02/85)
> > From what I have heard and read in the news accounts of rapes the majority > > of attacks begin from behind and so the "colt equalizer" is of little or > > no use at all unless the individual is walking along with the weapon in > > her hand, safety off, and a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. > > > Incidentally, the only useful way to carry a semiauto pistol is with a > round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. ("Excuse me sir, I need to > pull back the slide and chamber a round. Could you please wait a moment?") > > > Maybe I'm wrong though...... > > It is true that the Colt .45 is not very safe to carry unless carried in a holster with a thumbstrap which blocks the hammer while carried "cocked and locked", or carried with the chamber empty. It is also true that the recoil is too much for many women. It is also true that few women would carry one in a holster. All things considered, it's a poor choice for women in day-to-day situations, where typical carry is in a purse. There are however a number of double-action revolvers and autos quite suitable. Ruger .38 revolvers come to mind, as does the S&W Model 39. HOWEVER... few women are of the required frame of mind to carry a weapon at all. Sunny -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (07/05/85)
> > Incidentally, the only useful way to carry a semiauto pistol is with a > > round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. ("Excuse me sir, I need to > > pull back the slide and chamber a round. Could you please wait a moment?") > > > > > Maybe I'm wrong though...... > > > > It is true that the Colt .45 is not very safe to carry unless carried in a > holster with a thumbstrap which blocks the hammer while carried > "cocked and locked", or carried with the chamber empty. It is also true that > the recoil is too much for many women. It is also true that few women would > carry one in a holster. All things considered, it's a poor choice for women > in day-to-day situations, where typical carry is in a purse. > My wife is no Amazon, but she's a better shot with our .45 than I am. (Warning to all rapists: do not break into my home when my wife is there. It will be your last attempt.) Note: I wasn't seriously recommending a Colt .45 for carrying on the street; Colt now builds a .380 which is a little more appropriate. > There are however a number of double-action revolvers and autos quite suitable. > Ruger .38 revolvers come to mind, as does the S&W Model 39. > > HOWEVER... few women are of the required frame of mind to carry a weapon at all. > > Sunny I suspect if women were of the required frame of mind to carry a weapon, they would be less likely to be annoyed in the petty ways women are hassled by slimy creeps, because the required frame of mind to carry a weapon is, "I'm tired of living in fear." A "please, no crap" attitude would help a lot.
rdz@ccice5.UUCP (Robert D. Zarcone) (07/08/85)
> I'm sorry you know such terrible shots. They must be pretty bad, because > I don't consider myself a particularly capable marksman, and I have no > problem hitting a rapist-sized target at 15 yards. More important, if > you can't shoot a rapist at the more realistic distance of five feet, > I doubt you can drive a car successfully either. > > Gee, when I carry a firearm, I don't shoot people for saying "Nice evening". > A woman who has been raped is probably a little more hair-trigger than a > woman who has not been raped --- even then, I sincerely doubt that any but > the most tweaked are going to shoot a man just for saying "Nice evening", > anymore then they are going to spray him with tear gas. Well, what do you do when they are five feet away, say "nice evenining", and begin their attack as soon as you pass? I suppose you will have a handy "one case fits all" answer for this scenario? *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***