mmar@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Mitchell Marks) (07/10/85)
There has been an interesting discussion going on between Moira Mallison
and Ross Greenberg, involving serious questions of how to respond to
individuals as such and not as representatives of groups they may belong
to. I'd like to interject a comment on a comparatively trivial issue,
which however was the mustard seed which started that discussion going: the
business of holding doors for people.
At any rate I *call* it a trivial issue, since it ought to be. There
was a time when it was a good exemplar of a pattern -- one instance of how
men pedestalled women, not always to their liking, and indeed less and less
to their liking as consciousnesses were raised. That general point is by
no means obsolete, but I thought the particular example was no longer the
powerful emblem it once had been.
My perspective here is that my experience in the last few years
has been different from what RG reports. I pretty routinely hold doors
for people, and I have *never* gotten an argument, or a snide comment, or
a dirty look. I'm not claiming to be calmer or more tolerant than RG --
probably I would react with the same exasperation if people were giving
me a hard time for exercising a simple courtesy. The difference is just
that I haven't gotten those reactions.
So how come? I don't want to suppose it's a basic difference
between NYC and Chicago, but who knows? Nor could it be because I
door-hold equally for men, women, and children (oh, maybe more for children),
since the other person in any one instance couldn't know that; they haven't
been following me around and collecting statistics.
Then what's left? Perhaps a difference in how to do it. Now, please
don't get offended, RG, this isn't meant as a criticism or provocation, just
a question. Do you think you might come across as making a special point of
it, e.g. doing it with some sort of big flourish, or hurrying to get to the
door first so as to be able to hold it? I do seem to recall that you said
at one point that you're bothered at someone resenting it when you "go out
of [your] way to be nice to them" (that's paraphrase, not real quotation).
If so, then maybe we've arrived at a recipe for how to hold a door
without getting flak in return. Don't go out of your way. Just hold the
door for the next person since you're going through it anyway and you
might as well not be rude and let it slam on them. But don't bow and
sweep your hat off (:-). And hurry to get there first and perform your
courtesy only when the other person very evidently needs the door held,
say because of an armload of packages.
Handling the other end of this interchange could also bear some
discussion, except that the answer is much simpler. Nod and say "Thank
you". That should do, regardless of whether you're male or female, and
regardless of whether the person holding the door is male or female.
(Of course, if they do bow and sweep their hat off, you might look for
another response.)
--
-- Mitch Marks @ UChicago
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!mmar
"After you, Alphonse!"greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) (07/10/85)
In article <798@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> mmar@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Mitchell Marks) writes: (Writing about holding doors open for women): > At any rate I *call* it a trivial issue, since it ought to be. I agree. It really isn't the type of thing that I lose sleep over. It was just an example that I brought up, if you recall. > My perspective here is that my experience in the last few years >has been different from what RG reports. I pretty routinely hold doors >for people, and I have *never* gotten an argument, or a snide comment, or >a dirty look...... >.....So how come? I don't want to suppose it's a basic difference >between NYC and Chicago, but who knows? Well, I didn't mean to imply that if you hold a door open for someone in NYC that you take your life in your hands! Getting a bad reaction doesn't happen that frequently -- maybe once a month, if that often. Usually the person(s) I hold the door for smile, say thanks, and move on. A major difference between NY and Chicago might be more doors?? :-) > Then what's left? Perhaps a difference in how to do it. Now, please >don't get offended, RG, I'm not....good questions, no flame. How nice! > this isn't meant as a criticism or provocation, just >a question. Do you think you might come across as making a special point of >it, e.g. doing it with some sort of big flourish, or hurrying to get to the >door first so as to be able to hold it? I do seem to recall that you said >at one point that you're bothered at someone resenting it when you "go out >of [your] way to be nice to them" (that's paraphrase, not real quotation). I'm not aware of making a big deal out of it, but you certainly do have to go out of your way: it may take a few seconds longer to hold a door, but it is something that one doesn't have to do: to do it is to go out of your way......I think.... > Handling the other end of this interchange could also bear some >discussion, except that the answer is much simpler. Nod and say "Thank >you". That should do, regardless of whether you're male or female, and >regardless of whether the person holding the door is male or female. >(Of course, if they do bow and sweep their hat off, you might look for >another response.) And that is what it really comes down to: you should respond to *anyone* being polite by being polite back to them. What was it that Robert Heinlein said about the first sign of a decaying society? Oh, yes: that the first sign is a lack of societal courtesy. Thanks Mitch....you made me think! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ross M. Greenberg @ Time Inc, New York --------->{ihnp4 | vax135}!timeinc!greenber<--------- I highly doubt that Time Inc. they would make me their spokesperson.
zubbie@ihlpl.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (07/10/85)
> If so, then maybe we've arrived at a recipe for how to hold a door > without getting flak in return. Don't go out of your way. Just hold the > door for the next person since you're going through it anyway and you > might as well not be rude and let it slam on them. But don't bow and > sweep your hat off (:-). And hurry to get there first and perform your > courtesy only when the other person very evidently needs the door held, > say because of an armload of packages. > > discussion, except that the answer is much simpler. Nod and say "Thank > you". That should do, regardless of whether you're male or female, and > regardless of whether the person holding the door is male or female. > -- Mitch Marks @ UChicago Going in and out of stores, fast food places etc I invariably find someone coming in. Depending on if I get to the door first (no rushing etc,) I will either hold the door or wait for it to be opened. If I open the door most people on the other side (men and women) manage at least a thank you as they go through and so do I. Of course it also makes a difference which way the door opens -- Jeanette Zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie