oaf@mit-vax.UUCP (Oded Feingold) (07/16/85)
I'll condense Mr. McColm's posting without editorial intent: > Many people have been suggesting many tactics of dealing > with the sudden attacks of rapists, and in amongst these > tactics, I've noticed what I regard as a fatal flaw... > > A rapist is an intelligent, planning, often meticulous human > with a desire to hurt and kill unrelated to his own > survival. The problem with standard tactics in dealing with > rapists is that the rapists hear of them, and plan > accordingly. > > This also brings up the point of men trying to help women > who are facing things like the long walk home at night. > ...The offer for help can be duplicated by a rapist... > [Hence] any method proposed by a man for alleviating rape is > suspect. > Eric McColm I'd like to take partial exception to that. Presumably, if some man is at a party, he's known to the hosts and others there. If he offers to accompany someone home (and others know that's what he's doing,) he's identifiable in case of untoward consequences. Also, if he misbehaves he's in deep shit with his peer group. That may diminish the chance of trouble. The same logic should apply to work and leisure activities, not just parties. So perhaps a partial answer is to choose people who are integrated into a social group (yours?) for your pool of escorts home. That doesn't address the political overtones of men walking women home to protect them. [I don't think I can address that.] Someone who knows more than I about rapists' integration in society might comment whether such a selection criterion has any merit. If integration in social organizations has no correlation with tendency to rape (especially a negative correlation,) then such a selection would have little to recommend it, except for later identification. -- Oded Feingold {decvax, harvard}!mitvax!oaf MIT AI Lab oaf%oz@mit-mc.ARPA 545 Tech Sq. 617-253-8598 work Cambridge, Mass. 02139 617-371-1796 home
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (07/17/85)
Most rapes are committed by a person known to the rapee. This can be husband, "boyfriend", date, or just "friend". Thus it is questionable that rape will be solved by having some flavor of "friend" assuming body-guard duty over each woman who would otherwise be alone. Do you really think most rapes are committed in the street? > > tactics of dealing with attacks of rapists, > > I've noticed a fatal flaw... > > > > This also brings up the point of men trying to help women > > who are facing things like the long walk home at night. > > ...The offer for help can be duplicated by a rapist... > > [Hence] any method proposed by a man for alleviating rape is > > suspect. > > Eric McColm > > I'd like to take partial exception to that. Presumably, if some man > is at a party, he's known to the hosts and others there. If he offers > to accompany someone home (and others know that's what he's doing,) > he's identifiable in case of untoward consequences. Also, if he > misbehaves he's in deep shit with his peer group. Is he truly in trouble with his peer group, or only if the rapee is an intimate of one of the men in his peer group? > So perhaps a partial answer is to choose people who are integrated > into a social group (yours?) for your pool of escorts home. That > doesn't address the political overtones of men walking women home to > protect them. [I don't think I can address that.] > > Someone who knows more than I about rapists' integration in society > might comment whether such a selection criterion has any merit. If > integration in social organizations has no correlation with tendency > to rape (especially a negative correlation,) then such a selection > would have little to recommend it, except for later identification. > -- Again, this "solution" leaves women as relative prisoners in their own towns... We can come up with a zillion answers to the symptoms of the problem (protecting women from potential rape) But the only ultimate solution must deal with the cause of the problem (attitudes of men who rape) (attitudes of the criminal "due process" system). It doesn't matter how many times women try to point the discussion at the root problem in this (or any other forum), the men always redirect the discussion back at the women (it's the way they dress...) or back at the symptoms (I'll protect the women I care about). That still leaves us with an overall attitude that men on the whole won't take responsibility for their actions or the actions of their peers. Lock the bastards up, and quit letting them back out on the streets so they can rape again, and again, and again, without ever dealing with the psychology behind their actions. Sunny p.s. everything in this discussion of rape could just as easily be applied to battering. p.p.s. Not until men view women as equals will any of these problems end. OK, men, how about organizing a push for the Equal Rights Ammendment? or is it that WASPS, black jews, purple people eaters, and all other men of every race, religion, creed, etc. have equal rights, but women don't? -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
arnold@ucsfcgl.UUCP (Ken Arnold%CGL) (07/19/85)
In article <2432@sun.uucp> sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes: >Most rapes are committed by a person known to the rapee. This can be >husband, "boyfriend", date, or just "friend". Thus it is questionable >that rape will be solved by having some flavor of "friend" assuming >body-guard duty over each woman who would otherwise be alone. Do you >really think most rapes are committed in the street? Even given that this is so, many rapes are committed in the street. Otherwise women wouldn't need to feel afraid of walking alone at night (or any other time). It is important that people realize that rapes are committed by known people more often than not, but you cannot use this to dismiss the problem of protecting women at night. If a woman is leaving a party where she knows many people, it is seems reasonable to me to accept an escort from some man at the party she does not know, as long as she knows who does know him. This is primarily because, if a rape occurs, the man can be identified to the police, and he was seen leaving the party with that woman. Thus, he knows that he can be caught, which is (I believe) a deterrent to rape. Of course, this doesn't count if the people a woman goes to parties with are sleaze and would refuse to help. Such people are to be avoided at all costs. Since there are no absolutes, any woman should exercise some caution here. But I think that, given the choice between walking any distance alone and walking with a friend of a friend, I would expect it was safer to choose the latter. Ken Arnold
greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) (07/19/85)
In article <2432@sun.uucp> sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes: (Quoting someone else): >> >> ....Presumably, if some man >> is at a party, he's known to the hosts and others there.... >> ...if he misbehaves he's in deep shit with his peer group. > >Is he truly in trouble with his peer group, or only if the rapee is an >intimate of one of the men in his peer group? How silly of me. I've always been concerned with women getting raped, whether friend, aquaintance, stranger, or intimate. Now Sunny speaks, and tells me that I'm only concerned if the women is an intimate of mine. So that's how a "real" man acts, according to Sunny! You're doin' a lot of good, Sunny! At least I don't have to question myself or other men about our inherent beliefs: you've defined them for me. Thanks! > >It doesn't matter how many times women try to point the discussion at the >root problem in this (or any other forum), the men always redirect the >discussion back at the women (it's the way they dress...) >or back at the symptoms (I'll protect the women I care about). > Enough of this BULLSHIT! You are convinced that it is men's total responsibility to eradicate rape. Fine. You're right. YOU TELL US HOW TO DO IT. GIVE CONCRETE EXAMPLES THAT ARE ALREADY PROVEN TO WORK, AND TO WORK IMMEDIATELY. AND TO WORK FOR ALL SOCIETIES, AND ALL WOMEN. If you have nothing to add that is positive, or even credible, then stay the hell out of the discussion! I'll give you a hint: try not to tell me that *I* am responsible for rape, simply because of my penis. Treat me like a person. Rape is something that effects all of us -- it is a sickness in society, and something that should be eradicated by society. Not by any one group within society. >That still leaves us with an overall attitude that men on the whole won't >take responsibility for their actions or the actions of their peers. > AGAIN?!?!?! Who the hell are *you* representing that gives you the right to speak for me? Or are you instead, from your high ivory tower, trying to judge me? GRRRRRRR! And what happened to *people* being responsible for their actions or the actions of their peers? Suddenly this is a man's province? Are you representing that you (as a women) would rather that men deal with the dirty details of justice? How long will you continue to whine about injustice, and hope that somebody, somewhere will magically fix it for you? The population has more women than men in it. The US is run sorta like a democracy. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBILTY INHERENT IN BEING A PERSON? If women wanted something badly enough, they could easily sweep the polls. (I know....the International Conspiracy Of Men Against Women...we purposely keep women ignorant of their power, right? Don't bore me Sunny, think up a new fantasy, ok?) > >p.p.s. Not until men view women as equals will any of these problems end. > OK, men, how about organizing a push for the Equal Rights Ammendment? > or is it that WASPS, black jews, purple people eaters, and all other > men of every race, religion, creed, etc. have equal rights, but > women don't? Not until *you* view men as worthwhile people, and that their existance is not just to cause you grief. BTW.....Since there are more women capable of voting than men, why was ERA defeated? I just finished paying my ex-wife some money the courts decided she needed based on her sex, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ross M. Greenberg @ Time Inc, New York --------->{vax135 | ihnp4}!timeinc!greenber<--------- I highly doubt that Time Inc. would make me their spokesperson. ---- "I was riding a wombat this morning, 'till it broke its leg. I had to shoot it" -- Ranger on Camel
moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison ) (07/19/85)
In article <330@timeinc.UUCP> greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) writes: > >I just finished paying my ex-wife some money the courts decided >she needed based on her sex, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask. > Did the courts decide she needed it based or her sex, or was it because you were out "jumping from ...firm to ...firm" so she didn't "have to work". Just curious. Moira Mallison tektronix!moiram
ariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan) (07/20/85)
> > [Eric McColm's stuff about rapists' tactics] > Oded Feingold: > > I'd like to take partial exception to that. Presumably, if some man > is at a party, he's known to the hosts and others there. If he offers > to accompany someone home (and others know that's what he's doing,) > he's identifiable in case of untoward consequences. Also, if he > misbehaves he's in deep shit with his peer group. That may diminish > the chance of trouble. The same logic should apply to work and > leisure activities, not just parties. Actually, if anything untoward happens, the woman must have "asked for it." After all, she let him walk her home, and that probably meant that she asked him in, and we all *know* what that means. Don't we? Especially if the woman was inebriated. Then she is *really* asking for it. Ok, maybe this is a little thick for this group, but I've seen it happen and I've read about it happening (Dear Abby addressed just this situation recently). The point is that a woman can't possibly know what any given man will do in this dangerous situation unless she knows him extremely well. I remember feeling uncomfortable in my own home at the end of my own party when I looked around and noticed that not only were there only men left, but none of them were men I knew very well at all...and there I was in my party clothes, a bit the worse for drink and not up to defending myself. *In my own home!* And these were members of my social group, with whom I'd chatted and flirted and otherwise *liked*, but I didn't know them well enough to trust them. > Someone who knows more than I about rapists' integration in society > might comment whether such a selection criterion has any merit. If > integration in social organizations has no correlation with tendency > to rape (especially a negative correlation,) then such a selection > would have little to recommend it, except for later identification. I'm afraid that I'm not comfortable with this selection criterion. Women are raped by casual aquaintences and dates all the time; more often, in fact, than by drooling crazies from the bushes. And it's a good deal more difficult to defend yourself from accusations of "asking for it" after you put yourself in a position to trust someone who later turns out to be untrustworthy (to say the least!). Ariel Shattan ..!tektronix!orca!ariels
greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) (07/21/85)
In article <5517@tektronix.UUCP> moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison ) writes: (Quoting me): >> >>I just finished paying my ex-wife some money the courts decided >>she needed based on her sex, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask. >> > >Did the courts decide she needed it based or her sex, or was it because >you were out "jumping from ...firm to ...firm" so she didn't "have to >work". Just curious. > Interesting question. Since I just wrote the checks, and realized what that monatary amount does to my future plans, I may have written the above in haste. Allow me to explain a bit. I'm a freelance consultant, my ex was a freelance writer. I make pretty good money. She made virtually nothing, as she was just starting her career as a writer. So I opted to take up all the expenses for about six years. For a variety of reasons already discussed elsewhere, she walked out about a year ago, and I just signed the divorce/separation papers, and paid what I had to. She *could* have gotten a lot more based on, not the financial arrangement we had established but the fact that I had been supporting her. If the situation had been reversed, my counsel assures me, *I* could not have gotten anything from her: after all, I would have been a man working fulltime (and not making it) and I would have voluntarily left my wife. So if the tables had been reversed, I *still* would not have seen any benefit. This, I hope, answers your question. The rest is too personal, I'm afraid... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ross M. Greenberg @ Time Inc, New York --------->{vax135 | ihnp4}!timeinc!greenber<--------- I highly doubt that Time Inc. would make me their spokesperson. ---- "I was riding a wombat this morning, 'till it broke its leg. I had to shoot it" -- Ranger on Camel
gmack@denelvx.UUCP (Gregg Mackenzie) (07/25/85)
> But the only ultimate solution must deal with the cause of the problem > (attitudes of men who rape) This may only be a matter of semantics, but I feel I need to point this out. The cause of the problem has little to do with the "attitudes of men who rape". I think it has more to do with the PSYCHOLOGY of men who rape. Crime, in general, is such a complex problem that it may never be solved. Will we ever be a crime-free society? I think it's an unattainable goal unless you can raise people in a vacuum, free from "undesireable" influences. > (attitudes of the criminal "due process" system). These are changing. Granted, it's a slow process, but did you expect it to happen overnight? > It doesn't matter how many times women try to point the discussion at the > root problem in this (or any other forum), the men always redirect the > discussion back at the women (it's the way they dress...) > or back at the symptoms (I'll protect the women I care about). What do you see as the "root problem"? Men? Men's attitudes? I think the root goes much deeper than that. I think the root is hidden somewhere in human psychological development and is the sum of many variables including paternal and environmental influences, among who-knows-how-many others. There is much more to be explored before we can say, "Yup, here it is right here. The root of the problem. See it?" Right now, all we can do is treat the symptoms, which is to, as you say, "Lock the bastards up." > That still leaves us with an overall attitude that men on the whole won't > take responsibility for their actions or the actions of their peers. Sunny, I'm really getting tired of reading your sexist crap! Why should "men" take responsibility for a man's anit-social behavior? Do women take responsibility for a woman who exhibits anti-social behavior? You can't divide it up like that and say, "Ok, you men go out in the garage and take care of male anti-social behavior, and us women-folk'll go into the kitchen and take care of female anti-social behavior." I do not consider anti-social men to be my peers. You can't just sit back and say, "Well, it's men who do the raping, so men should solve the problem." We all have to work together, as a society, to, in the long run, solve the problem, and, in the short run, treat the symptoms. > Lock the bastards up, and quit letting them back out on the streets so they > can rape again, and again, and again, without ever dealing with the > psychology behind their actions. I don't know how it works where you are, but here in Colorado, while we can't vote to elect judges, we can vote to remove or retain them in office. Beyond that, it comes down to electing people to the legislature who will pass the laws you want passed. I vote in ALL elections. Even the piddly ones. Do you? > p.p.s.Not until men view women as equals will any of these problems end. > OK, men, how about organizing a push for the Equal Rights Ammendment? > or is it that WASPS, black jews, purple people eaters, and all other > men of every race, religion, creed, etc. have equal rights, but > women don't? I'm sorry, but I fail to see the connection. How is ERA going to end rape? If you think that once ERA is passed rape will end, you're living in a dream-world, sister. Gregg Mackenzie denelcor!gmack