norman@lasspvax.UUCP (Norman Ramsey) (08/07/85)
In article <2030CJC@psuvm> CJC@psuvm.BITNET writes: >Another point: Sunny posted an article comparing some experiences from both >sides; so far I've seen two responses from men, both of whom stated that >Sunny's experience couldn't be representative. However neither tried to >answer this section of Sunny's posting: > >> On >>the whole, from my observations of myself, and of other people, I'd >>have to say that on the average, women are less bothered by their sex >>than men are. Back in the old days, I all to often watched previously >>intelligent conversations between men grind to a total halt, or to >>blithering idiocy, as some nice looking woman walked by, and when she'd >>disappeared from sight, would turn to discussion of her "fuckability" >>rather than back to work. (was that blunt enough? no, not really). This >>behavior pattern is most observable in a group of only men. The presence > ---------------------------------- >>of women reduces it's effects. Much of it is a very animalistic jousting >>between the men to prove to each other who is the horniest. >> I was going to reply to Sunny's original posting, and then thought it wasn't really necessary, but since some other people have followed up, I decided to donate my point of view. I agree to a large extent with Sunny that sexual desires and stimulations can be very distracting. I am often distracted when a woman walks by (one day I may have a bicycle accident). I want to have sex. I want to emphasize that these are my *feelings* and *desires*, about which I dn't have much choice (some, but not much). I have a tremendous amount of choice about how I let these feelngs and desires affect my attitudes and behavior. For example: I have never been disturbed at work (or even at the workplace), as Sunny describes, by sexual thoughts, any more than I a by hunger (I have been known to eat my lunch at 7 PM when I'm trying to get a program or a piece of equipment to work). I could give a lot of other examples but I think the essence of what I'm taking about is self-discipline. Our culture does not place much value on self-discipline (as copared with, say the Japanese). Throughout recorded history, young people have found it notoriously difficult to develop self-discipline. I believe that young men in America are not encourage to develop responsibility for their behavior towards women, which in turn makes it very difficult for them to learn to control that behavior (here I am *not* speaking from personal experience; the men with whom I have discussed this -- I could count them on the fingers of one hand -- are responsible individuals, including in their sexuality). Historically, women have been forced to live with the consequences of sex (childbirth); men have not. The idea that men and women *should* be equally responsible is a new one. This is not meant to be an apology for irresponsible or oppressive behavior, nor as a solution. I am trying to say (a) I agree with Sunny that men sometimes are sexually irresponsible; and (b) I don't think it has anything to do with differences between male and female hormones. On this last, I am really invoking Occam's razor. I claim we can explain what we see just by thinking about society and behavior, and in particular by thinking about the issues of self-discipline and responsibility, and that it is not necessary to invoke hormonal differences to come to an understanding of what is going on. (Although I *do* think hormones explain some things about sexual desire, like its urgency). Of course I would also like to believe that responsibility and self-discipline are things we can change (particularly in ourselves, but also collectively and in our children), while we're stuck with our hormones (my apologies to Sunny). > I'm a woman. Obviously I've never been in a group of *only men*. All I >know about how men act when no women are around is what I hear or read. >I don't recall observing a group women stopping their talk to ogle a passing >male, at least not since high school, nor discussing the possible sexual >merits of such a passer-by. Is this a real difference or isn't it? I've never been in a group of men where anything like this happened, not even in high school. This says something about me and probably absolutely nothing about men, except that what you describe is not a universal experience. I was always different anyway. -- Norman Ramsey ARPA: norman@lasspvax -- or -- norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJARTJ at CORNELLA Never eat anything with a shelf life of more than ten years