pc@hplabsb.UUCP (07/24/85)
> > Again, I know of no evidence to support this theory, but it > seems the point is that perhaps, GIVEN A CHOICE, many rapists > would "prefer" to attack the more "provacatively" dressed > woman. > Scott Berry You should have stopped by just saying "I know of no evidence to support this theory." I don't believe the provocative dress bull**** for a minute. Having been attacked while I was violently ill (which had me running in&out of the bathroom), looking quite pale, disheveled, and in baggy clothing, it is clear to me that that subhuman male did not care a twit for how provocatively I was dressed. In another incident (at work, I might add) where I BEGGED a colleague to keep his hands off, he replied that it was my fault because of the way I dressed. This guy was really turned on by loose-fitting blue jeans and oversized (opaque) shirts. More to the point, he was just turned on by any female. As has been pointed out many many many times in this group, most rapes and other attacks against women are made by men who know their victims. For the lowlife described above, they just assumed that familiarity was a license. It took a police restraint to keep the first guy away. The second guy never did get through to his hormones that he needed to ask first. (I even clobbered this guy one time after he grabbed what wasn't his, being sure my demands to be left alone were not going to be respected.) So, please guys-- show some respect!!! It makes me ill to see so many men try to defend those who deliberately harm others. I cannot for the life of me understand putting down obviously hurt women by defending, excusing, or even "understanding" the actions of assailants. It is a collosal insult. Patricia Collins actions ( -- {ucbvax|duke|hao|allegra}!hplabs!pc
scott@hou2g.UUCP (N. Ersha) (07/29/85)
> I don't believe the provocative dress bull**** for a minute. Having > been attacked while I was violently ill (which had me running in&out > of the bathroom), looking quite pale, disheveled, and in baggy clothing, > it is clear to me that that subhuman male did not care a twit for how > provocatively I was dressed. Oh, well, clearly that settles it. I mean, if ONE exception occurs (yes, yes, I know this may be/probably isn't an exception), then the "rule" can't POSSIBLY be correct, right? >So, please guys-- show some respect!!! It makes me ill to see so many >men try to defend those who deliberately harm others. I cannot for the >life of me understand putting down obviously hurt women by defending, >excusing, or even "understanding" the actions of assailants. It is a >collosal insult. > Patricia Collins So, please gals-- show some respect!!! It makes me ill to see so many women try to defend those who deliberately misunderstand others. I cannot for the life of me understand exploring obviously important topics by defending, excusing, or even "understanding" ideas. It is a colossal insult. Actually, you're right, of course. Let's not try to understand assailants. Let's just lock them up, and throw away the key (or better yet, KILL them). Then, if more "assailants" evolve, we'll deal with them the same way. But let's not waste time on understanding them; we wouldn't want to attack the cause, just the symptom. Scott Berry
sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (07/31/85)
Women on the net, for the sake of humanity, when you read the kind of bullshit underneath, try to think of all the *nice* *caring* men that you know. They exist. I am very glad I know enough of them because if my first contact with men had been from reading net.women, I think I would have become a man-hater a long time ago. Geez! where do these guys come from? Thank god for the real world outside of the net! Men on the net, how can you let jerks like all the ones in this newsgroup speak for you like that? I am serious when I am saying that the more I read the net, the more I believe that nothing much has changed in the relationships between the sexes. Please, prove me wrong! Here is the article that prompted me to put down those thoughts: this guy is right out of the wizard of Oz, all tin, no heart. Patricia (and many other women before) recounts an incident when she was sexually harassed even though she was sick and at her most unnatractive (pardon me Patricia, but you said so), and ends up with a plea for compassion from some of the net readers, and in response, this guy starts a debating match with her using stupid and irrelevant tit-for-tat intellectual techniques. oh, oh, I am getting mad now.. What will it take to get it through your thick head that for most women, rape is a *real* (as in experienced personally) threat and not just a very interesting "topic". It is not an idea that women get raped a lot, it is a FACT. So why don't you listen for a change to the people who have been raped and try to be a bit more human about the whole business instead of turning it into a manly intellectual exchange. We've had enough of your manly intellectualisations of our real problems. If you don't stop your fellow men from raping us, we will have to do it ourselves and that won't be pleasant, that's all. Rape is a *manly* thing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with women. Women are victims because they are weaker and have been conditioned to be passive. They are simply good targets. You want proof? ok, segregate the sexes. You can easily find very good examples of all-male and all-female societies when you look at prisons. What happens there? in men's prisons men rape each other. In women's prisons, nobody gets raped. If that doesn't make it clear that rape is a male thing, I don't know what does. So take back your sh*t about "provocative clothing" and go stuff it somewhere. In prison, everybody wears the same clothes! --------------------------------------- > > I don't believe the provocative dress bull**** for a minute. Having > > been attacked while I was violently ill (which had me running in&out > > of the bathroom), looking quite pale, disheveled, and in baggy clothing, > > it is clear to me that that subhuman male did not care a twit for how > > provocatively I was dressed. > > Oh, well, clearly that settles it. I mean, if ONE exception occurs > (yes, yes, I know this may be/probably isn't an exception), then the > "rule" can't POSSIBLY be correct, right? > > >So, please guys-- show some respect!!! It makes me ill to see so many > >men try to defend those who deliberately harm others. I cannot for the > >life of me understand putting down obviously hurt women by defending, > >excusing, or even "understanding" the actions of assailants. It is a > >collosal insult. > > Patricia Collins > > So, please gals-- show some respect!!! It makes me ill to see so many > women try to defend those who deliberately misunderstand others. > I cannot for the life of me understand exploring obviously important > topics by defending, excusing, or even "understanding" ideas. It is a > colossal insult. > > Actually, you're right, of course. Let's not try to understand assailants. > Let's just lock them up, and throw away the key (or better yet, KILL them). > Then, if more "assailants" evolve, we'll deal with them the same way. But > let's not waste time on understanding them; we wouldn't want to attack the > cause, just the symptom. > > Scott Berry -- Sophie Quigley {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
al@mot.UUCP (Al Filipski) (08/02/85)
> I don't believe the provocative dress bull**** for a minute. Having
Let me preface my remarks by saying that in my opinion, "feminists"
as a group, contain a substantially higher percentage of educated
jerks than the general population. I did not always hold this opinion,
but after hearing "feminists" argue that erotic literature is an
ipso facto violation of women's rights and that the federal government
should compute and dictate to employers the correct wage for every
occupation... Arghh!
Anyway, I try not to let the more irritating members of
the movement make me unreceptive to good points when they are made.
Several years ago, I heard on the radio a very cogent parody of a rape trial
put on by the Center Against Sexual Assault. A man was assaulted
and robbed of the money he was carrying. The defense lawyer kept
questioning the victim as to what kind of clothes he was wearing
("A suit. I see. Would you say it was an EXPENSIVE suit?") and whether
he had ever GIVEN money away, say to charity. (The point being that by
wearing an expensive suit he was "asking for it" and that if he were in
the habit of giving money away, maybe he was even a willing participant
in the robbery.) It was quite startling and enlightening.
BTW, if you want to flame me, you'll have to do it by mail. We don't
usually get this newsgroup.
--------------------------------
Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A
{seismo|ihnp4}!ut-sally!oakhill!mot!al
ucbvax!arizona!asuvax!mot!al
--------------------------------norman@lasspvax.UUCP (Norman Ramsey) (08/07/85)
In article <1656@mnetor.UUCP> sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) writes: >Women on the net, for the sake of humanity, when you read the kind of >bullshit underneath, try to think of all the *nice* *caring* men that >you know. They exist. I am very glad I know enough of them because if >my first contact with men had been from reading net.women, I think I >would have become a man-hater a long time ago. Geez! where do these >guys come from? Thank god for the real world outside of the net! > >Men on the net, how can you let jerks like all the ones in this >newsgroup speak for you like that? I am serious when I am saying that >the more I read the net, the more I believe that nothing much has >changed in the relationships between the sexes. Please, prove me >wrong! I'll speak for myself at least, saying that in some sense I feel powerless to affect what's going on. I don't know what to do about sexism in my own community, let alone on the net. One thing I have noticed (being new here) is that there is a tremendous amount of hate on the net. I don't think net.women is special in this regard (try reading net.philosophy sometime; it's the worst I've seen). One guy pinted ot a week or so ago that it's hard to get answers to a request for information, but just say something wrong and fifty people will flame you. I have a lot of ideas why there sould be so much immaturity and hatred on the net, but net.women doesn't seem the right place to discuss them. -- Norman Ramsey ARPA: norman@lasspvax -- or -- norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJARTJ at CORNELLA Never eat anything with a shelf life of more than ten years
bob@ulose.UUCP ( Bob Bismuth ) (08/07/85)
<---------------------- provided for line goblers ------------------------->
Let me preface this posting by stating that these views are mine alone
and, being personal, they may seem somewhat extreme and provocative.
Flames are not intentional and I respect the opinions of others.
I realize that this discussion has been going on for a while, so please
excuse any repetitions.
Rape is a violent crime. Seldom have I been in contact with women,
men, or children, who have been raped in a way that is "clean" or which
has occured very quickly. For all victims whom I have met, it is a
violation of their personal existence for the rest of their lives.
At least for those that survived.
It is not usually confined to just a sexual assault, but frequently
involves a great deal of sadistic brutality. The damage to an
individual is more than physical. I have heard it described as dying
each time one is touched by a man. It seems a worse crime than the
murder it frequently ends in.
If you don't believe this, try helping to support the family of a young
woman who was raped and murdered. Whether the victim lives or not, the
crime lives on in all cases of its occurence - it is emotionally harder
to deal with than murder.
It is a crime performed by men. At times it makes me ashamed to be
male.
Sympathy and understanding for a rapist? I have none to give - I have
tried. I can find no excusable reason for this crime. Rapists have
been extensively studied. For those who believe in the "provocative
clothing" placebo, there is much available to explain that rapists are
not locked away without study and trial.
In fact, a rapist can be quite difficult to lock away - rape must be
one of the easiest brutal crimes to escape punishment for. It has only
been since our collective social consciousness was raised that convictions
have been occuring without first trying the moral character of the
victim, and then insisting on an "independent witness".
Does locking away "cure" a "sexual offender" (that nice legal
description)? No, not usually - most rapists rape again once out.
Sometimes though it works via the death of the rapist, but usually only
when they are not placed in solitary confinement.
In case netters are unaware, "sexual offenders" are generally placed in
solitary and isolated from other inmates to "protect them". A sadistic
rapist or child molester would not survive a stretch in a communal
area. Of course, that doesn't isolate them from the "screws" (prison
guards)...
Result? A "sexual offender" leaves prison after being beaten and
possibly "raped". That doesn't cure them, on the contrary, they
generally rape/attack/brutalize an "available" women - someone who is
possibly weaker than they are and a representative of the "class" that
is oppressing their freedom to demonstrate their masculinity and demark
their male territory.
Of course, I expect people will draw exceptions to points I have made
above - there are always exceptions. I doubt many women will draw such
exceptions.
So, this has turned out longer than I thought it would, but, what can
we do? Those who don't think of this crime as serious, or who believe
in the "provocative clothing" nonsense, should start reading. Susan
Brownmiller's book "Against Our Will" is excellent. Also, for those
who think they can really take it, Andrea Dworkin's "Women Hating" is
worth it. I'd also recommend "The Facts of Rape" by Barbara Toner. As
has been pointed out in other replies, there is a good lot one can read
and rather than list everything I know about, I'd suggest contacting
your local Crisis/Rape support or women's group.
After reading and realizing, get involved. Help a support group. They
need all sorts of help from just driving people around to counselling
and giving talks to local organizations. Most groups provide support
for a variety of situations, including rape, domestic violence, child
abuse, etc. There is plenty that even men can help with.
The final point is, if you see a rape occuring, DO SOMETHING. A lot
of people don't - they just walk away. DO SOMETHING TO HELP. Call the
police, shout or make noise in anyway you can - most rapists don't like
publicity given to their performance. Despite their desire to have
power and control over another human being, they don't like the
spotlight shining on them in their moment of "glory".
If you lasted this far, then a final thought: I've stressed the crimes
one reads and hears of in the press. Most rapes don't happen on the
streets, they happen in houses, apartments and, more often than most
think, in schools. Women are most frequently the target, but children
come a close second. For those who believe its just the clothes they
wear, tell me, what can a 6 or 4 year old young woman wear that
provokes her father, teacher or councellor into a sexual attack?
Unfortunately, a lot happens in the world. Fortunately, the press
never gets around to sensationalizing most of it - while they don't
like spotlights during the event, attackers certainly like reading
about their exploits and those of others.
-- bob
(decvax!ulose!bob)jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (08/12/85)
> Sympathy and understanding for a rapist? I have none to give - I have > tried. I can find no excusable reason for this crime. All right, I've had enough of this. It's true that there was an idiotic tendency in the 60's to equate understanding with sympathy. This, however, is not what Eric McColm and others have been talking about (if I may say so). The purpose of understanding the rapist is not to excuse him, sympathize with him, or any such nonsense. The purpose is to *prevent rape*. Note: Killing him won't work - at least one rape has already occured by that time. Just think how ridiculous it would sound if someone said, "Earthquakes are so horrible. They kill people and cause all kinds of psychological trauma. How can anyone even think about understanding them?" Look up the primary definition in the dictionary. It might surprise you. Jeff Winslow