phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (08/10/85)
Another interesting point in this discussion of testosterone poisoning
is that Sunny is admittedly a pre-operative transexual and therefore still
feels the effects of testosterone. Perhaps Sunny feels the effects of orally
administered estrogen as well but it is curious for me to understand
how someone still feeling the effects of testosterone can claim to know
what its absence feels like.
--
"Where are all the good men?"
"I think they're out with all the bad women!"
Phil Ngai (408) 749-5720
UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil
ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPAdbercel@sun.uucp (the Kamikaze Programmer) (08/11/85)
> Another interesting point in this discussion of testosterone poisoning > is that Sunny is admittedly a pre-operative transexual and therefore still > feels the effects of testosterone. Perhaps Sunny feels the effects of orally > administered estrogen as well but it is curious for me to understand > how someone still feeling the effects of testosterone can claim to know > what its absence feels like. > -- > "Where are all the good men?" > "I think they're out with all the bad women!" > > Phil Ngai (408) 749-5720 > UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil > ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPA Sunny is functioning in a state refered to as chemical castration. The dosages of estrogen and medroxyprogesterone that Sunny takes causes the output of testosterone by the pituitary gland to be surpressed. The output of testosterone by the testicles is largly negated by the very large doses of estrogen and medroxyprogestrone she is taking. While it is true what she is experiencing is different from what a genetic woman would experience her hormonal experience is not testosterone influenced either. Additionally, it is likely that her doctor(s) are having her take the hormones in a way that simulates the periodic hormonal changes that occur monthly in our bodies. Finally, since many of the bodies cells (including the brain) have receptors for estrogens and progestrones the cells are changing to those of a genetic female.
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (08/12/85)
> Another interesting point in this discussion of testosterone poisoning > is that Sunny is admittedly a pre-operative transexual and therefore still > feels the effects of testosterone. Perhaps Sunny feels the effects of orally > administered estrogen as well but it is curious for me to understand > how someone still feeling the effects of testosterone can claim to know > what its absence feels like. > -- > "Where are all the good men?" > "I think they're out with all the bad women!" > > Phil Ngai (408) 749-5720 > UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil > ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPA The oral estrogen causes the testicles to shut-down on their production of male hormones. I can't claim to be totally free of the effects of male hormones, but I obviously can and have observed differences in myself resulting from a transition from the "normal" levels of male hormones to my current state of normal estrogen and progesterone levels and a greatly reduced level of male hormones. The fact is, that only those who have experienced both sets of hormones can reasonably make any valid observations about what differences between the sexes are hormonally based. I am one such person. There are at least 4 others on the net who are not nearly so willing to make public that they are not now, either what they once were, or what they hope to be in the future. Most transsexuals wish only to blend in with their new role, and only ever be taken to be what they appear to be, rather than to have their previous state or their transition known. There are, in the United States alone, 3 transsexual surgeries per day. There is an uncollected database out there... but you will have extreme difficulty getting the information from those unwilling to be sampled. The societal disapproval of those who do not fit into the male and female roles/stereotypes, or those who wish to cross that boundary, is sufficiently strong, that very few of us are willing to be known. I myself, am beginning to have serious doubts about the wisdom of having made myself known. But sometimes, just sometimes, I get really fed-up with men who have absolutely NO knowledge of what they're talking about, raving on about PMS in net.women. Sometimes, it seems worth risking all the rejection and ostracism, to point out a valid observation from experience, and risk all the flames which have come down on me as a result. Sometimes, I just can't believe the hostility and rejection of me, both on a human level, and as a valid data point. I seriously doubt any of the other transsexuals on the net who could substantiate or further enlighten on my observations of the effects of hormones will be willing to do so. Because y'all are just too damned closed minded to listen, or to treat us as valid humans. i.e. it just isn't worth the personal sacrifice to try to get a valid viewpoint heard and known. So just go on rationalizing away everything I have to say. After all... I'm so messed up I couldn't possibly have anything valid to say. Not when it threatens your preconceived notions, your closed minds, your sexual and genderal roles, and your total lack of ability to validly refute anything I have to say. IF you have experienced both male and female hormones, then you might have something valid to say about the differences between the sexes which are a result of hormones. Otherwise, you can only speak of what it is like to be male, or to be female. Just keep on rejecting me. Just keep on rejecting what I've said about the effects of hormones. Just keep on saying to the world: Don't bother me with the facts, My mind is made up. I will go a way. I will shut up. Because it is futile to cast pearls of wisdom before swine. Sunny -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (08/14/85)
> > Sometimes, I just can't believe the hostility and rejection of me, both on a > human level, and as a valid data point. I feel that several people in this newsgroup have been too hostile and rude toward's Sunny. I admire her honesty, in a world where there are so many con artists and manipulators running around. > Otherwise, you can only speak of what it > is like to be male, or to be female. I'm not sure that I agree with this. The Jungian theory of psychoanalysis maintains that there is a male and female side of each person. The male side of a woman, and vice versa, will often manifest themselves as characters in a person's dreams. This means that not all of the personality is based on hormones and chemical changes, but upon spirituality and the collective unconscious as well. There are some people who find Jung's ideas to be mystical and religious, and this is to some extent too. But I feel that through dream analysis, reading of a great deal of literature, and empathy, it is possible for a person to begin to understand some of the feelings of the opposite sex. From discussions with men who are honest, I have learned a great deal about men's feelings that I did not previously understand. So while Sunny's experience should be listened too, I think that all of us have some degree of understanding of both male-ness and female-ness. Linda Seltzer > > Just keep on rejecting me. Just keep on rejecting what I've said about the > effects of hormones. Just keep on saying to the world: > Don't bother me with the facts, My mind is made up. > I will go a way. I will shut up. Because it is futile to cast pearls of > wisdom before swine. > > Sunny > -- > {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) (08/14/85)
In article <2614@sun.uucp> sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes: > >The fact is, that only those who have experienced both sets of hormones can >reasonably make any valid observations about what differences between the >sexes are hormonally based. Correct --- but I wonder if there is any difference between regulated oral dosages of hormones versus naturally occuring ones? If there is, then you still can't represent what it is like. I get this strange feeling that the body does some interesting things with the naturally occuring levels of (both male and female) hormone levels. I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong, though. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ross M. Greenberg @ Time Inc, New York --------->{vax135 | ihnp4}!timeinc!greenber<--------- I highly doubt that Time Inc. would make me their spokesperson. ---
hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (08/14/85)
In article <2614@sun.uucp> sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes: >Sometimes, I just can't believe the hostility and rejection of me, both on a >human level, and as a valid data point. I seriously doubt any of the other >transsexuals on the net who could substantiate or further enlighten on my >observations of the effects of hormones will be willing to do so. Because >y'all are just too damned closed minded to listen, or to treat us as valid >humans. i.e. it just isn't worth the personal sacrifice to try to get a >valid viewpoint heard and known. I can see why someone in your position would begin to feel somewhat persecuted. I'll bet you get some interesting hate mail. On the other hand, that "y'all" takes in me and that I must protest. I've nothing against you or transsexuals in general. One of my dearest friends is a female->male transsexual. I'd love to get him in on the discussion, but he's not on the net and lives in England (and is usually too busy to write). Anyway, perhaps it doesn't get said often enough that not all of us are rejecting you for what you are, even though it may feel so at times. I, for one, find your articles interesting and generally worth reading, though I don't always agree with what you say and may take time to express my differing views. We aren't _all_ swine. -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI Common Sense is what tells you that a ten 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. pound weight falls ten times as fast as a Santa Monica, CA 90405 one pound weight. (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe
cat@tommif.UUCP (Catherine Mikkelsen) (08/15/85)
> >Phil Ngai seems to have once written: > > Another interesting point in this discussion of testosterone poisoning > > is that Sunny is admittedly a pre-operative transexual and therefore still > > feels the effects of testosterone. Perhaps Sunny feels the effects of orally > > administered estrogen as well but it is curious for me to understand > > how someone still feeling the effects of testosterone can claim to know > > what its absence feels like. And: In article <2614@sun.uucp>, sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes: > > Sometimes, I just can't believe the hostility and rejection of me, both on a > human level, and as a valid data point. I seriously doubt any of the other > transsexuals on the net who could substantiate or further enlighten on my > observations of the effects of hormones will be willing to do so. Because > y'all are just too damned closed minded to listen, or to treat us as valid > humans. i.e. it just isn't worth the personal sacrifice to try to get a > valid viewpoint heard and known. > > So just go on rationalizing away everything I have to say. After all... > I'm so messed up I couldn't possibly have anything valid to say. > Not when it threatens your preconceived notions, your closed minds, your > sexual and genderal roles, and your total lack of ability to validly refute > anything I have to say........ > Just keep on rejecting me. Just keep on rejecting what I've said about the > effects of hormones. Just keep on saying to the world: > Don't bother me with the facts, My mind is made up. > I will go a way. I will shut up. Because it is futile to cast pearls of > wisdom before swine. > > Sunny WHOA. Hang on. (mumble mumble) Now look here. Sunny, I haven't been in on this discussion before, but I've seen Phil's postings and he Doesn't seem to be a rabid asshole type. I MAY be wrong, but I don't think that his observation was in any way personally degrading. I'm writing this because a previous posting somewhere in the net referred to the stupendous amount of hostility that the poster perceived among network postings. As one who has, er, been known send off postings in a half-cocked manner (albeit Snide postings, not hostile. Honest.), I just want to say this: Sunny, don't feel persecuted. NOT everyone is rejecting you. Jeeez. Why, 'though I lost interest in the PMS debate sevel weeks ago, I think that you've made several pertinent -- not to mention legible points. Which is more than I can say for many others. Chin up. And don't bother flaming me, anyone, Densa or not. I'm leaving the country. Catherine Mikkelsen decwrl!greipa!tommif!cat
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (08/16/85)
> WHOA. Hang on. (mumble mumble) Now look here. Sunny, I haven't been in > on this discussion before, but I've seen Phil's postings and he Doesn't > seem to be a rabid asshole type. I MAY be wrong, but I don't think that > his observation was in any way personally degrading. never claimed he was. In fact, as I have already explained to phil and others in private mail, my response was not so much aimed at Phil, even though the way I submitted my article was via followup to his, but in response to a series of articles which preceeded and included his which all in one way or another attempted to disprove there being any validity in my observations, when, I can't see how anyone but myself or another who HAS experienced both male and female hormones, can validly comment on the differences between men and women which are hormonally based. > > I'm writing this because a previous posting somewhere in the net referred > to the stupendous amount of hostility that the poster perceived among > network postings. As one who has, er, been known send off postings in a > half-cocked manner (albeit Snide postings, not hostile. Honest.), I just > want to say this: Sunny, don't feel persecuted. NOT everyone is rejecting you. Oh, no. Persecuted? Not at all. Persecution is an active phenomena. What I feel is rejected and ignored, invalidated, nonexistant, nonperson. personna non grata. I've seen too many articles here rejecting both my ability to make observations about men, my ability to make observations about women, and my ability to make observations unclouded by subjective factors, to believe that my viewpoint can be accepted as objective. AFter all, I'm not a man, I'm not a woman, I'm not a person. I'm invalid. I can't observe objectively. If anyone can propose just who or how to better observe the effects of hormones than by being under their influence, and how better to objectively report on their differences, other than to experience them first hand, I'd be glad to listen. And, I'm happy to report, (no, happy is NOT the right word), that there are no fewer than an even half dozen people who are, were, or will be involved in the trans-gender phenomena in some way or other such that we could easily classify them as {potential,current,past} transsexuals, other than myself, who have USENET addresses, and who will not come forth in this hostile forum (most of them in ANY forum) simply because they know from experience the level of persecution they will/have experience(d), and which they do not wish to be subjected to. I, myself, shall never again be so foolish as to try to speak from my unique experience, simply because, to let it be known to a public audience that one is or was a transsexual, is to invite total invalidation as a human being. Not that there aren't a signifigant number of people who have privately supported me, but because there are so overwhelmingly many hostile, hateful, rejecting, closedminded, xenophobic individuals that it is simply not practical in our "modern" "civilized" society to present oneself as other than belonging to one or the other of the two accepted possible stereotypes: "masculine man" or "feminine woman". I have learned my lesson the hard way. I don't want to have to change my name (again) in order to leave this behind me, after so foolishly having exposed myself worldwide on USENET, but I have been thinking about it. It has certainly NOT been worthwhile just to make some comments about hormonal effects. Mentioning I'd experienced both to support my validity of observation backfired. Being a transsexual IS invalid. So you will not be suprised to find my disappearing totally. I shall never again represent myself as other than the female I am becoming. Bye y'all... > Jeeez. Why, 'though I lost interest in the PMS debate sevel weeks ago, I > think that you've made several pertinent -- not to mention legible points. > Which is more than I can say for many others. Chin up. > > And don't bother flaming me, anyone, Densa or not. I'm leaving the country. > > Catherine Mikkelsen > decwrl!greipa!tommif!cat *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** > > >Phil Ngai seems to have once written: > > > > Another interesting point in this discussion of testosterone poisoning > > > is that Sunny is admittedly a pre-operative transexual and therefore still > > > feels the effects of testosterone. Perhaps Sunny feels the effects of orally > > > administered estrogen as well but it is curious for me to understand > > > how someone still feeling the effects of testosterone can claim to know > > > what its absence feels like. > > > And: In article <2614@sun.uucp>, sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes: > > > > Sometimes, I just can't believe the hostility and rejection of me, both on a > > human level, and as a valid data point. I seriously doubt any of the other > > transsexuals on the net who could substantiate or further enlighten on my > > observations of the effects of hormones will be willing to do so. Because > > y'all are just too damned closed minded to listen, or to treat us as valid > > humans. i.e. it just isn't worth the personal sacrifice to try to get a > > valid viewpoint heard and known. > > > > So just go on rationalizing away everything I have to say. After all... > > I'm so messed up I couldn't possibly have anything valid to say. > > Not when it threatens your preconceived notions, your closed minds, your > > sexual and genderal roles, and your total lack of ability to validly refute > > anything I have to say........ > > > Just keep on rejecting me. Just keep on rejecting what I've said about the > > effects of hormones. Just keep on saying to the world: > > Don't bother me with the facts, My mind is made up. > > I will go a way. I will shut up. Because it is futile to cast pearls of > > wisdom before swine. > > > > Sunny > -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (08/16/85)
> The fact is, that only those who have experienced both sets of hormones can > reasonably make any valid observations about what differences between the > sexes are hormonally based. I would go even further. Those who are male, know something about what it's like to be male. Those who are female, know something about what it's like to be female. Those who are transsexuals, know something about what it's like to be transsexual. It stands to reason, Sunny, even if you can't see it, that someone who wishes to change their sex is probably not terribly representative of all of those people who don't wish to change. But no. As one can see in the next paragraphs, you insist on seeing this entirely reasonable and valid objection (which you haven't yet been able to answer) as some kind of personal attack as well as an attack on transsexuals in general. > Sometimes, I just can't believe the hostility and rejection of me, both on a > human level, and as a valid data point. I seriously doubt any of the other > transsexuals on the net who could substantiate or further enlighten on my > observations of the effects of hormones will be willing to do so. Because > y'all are just too damned closed minded to listen, or to treat us as valid > humans. i.e. it just isn't worth the personal sacrifice to try to get a > valid viewpoint heard and known. > > Just keep on rejecting me. Just keep on rejecting what I've said about the > effects of hormones. Just keep on saying to the world: > Don't bother me with the facts, My mind is made up. > I will go a way. I will shut up. Because it is futile to cast pearls of > wisdom before swine. As an aside, I'd like to point out that your viewpoint might not generate so much hostility if it didn't have a good deal of hostility towards men in it to begin with. I remember some articles just a little while ago that were pretty pungent. This, of course, is another reason why some people will question your views of on the effects of male hormones. hoping for understanding... Jeff Winslow
kew@bigburd.UUCP (Karen Wieckert) (08/22/85)
In article <2614@sun.uucp> sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes: >Just keep on rejecting me. Just keep on rejecting what I've said about the >effects of hormones. Just keep on saying to the world: >Don't bother me with the facts, My mind is made up. >I will go a way. I will shut up. Because it is futile to cast pearls of >wisdom before swine. > > Sunny Please don't become too dejected, my dear Sunny. I find your insights invaluable and welcome your comments. Beware ye swine, a movement is afoot. ka:ren