seb@mtgzz.UUCP (s.e.badian) (07/27/85)
>> me (s.badian) > doug alan >> I think Madonna has a great deal going. She knows exactly how to get >> everyone hot and spend money on her albums and concerts. >No one would argue that she's raking in the dough. But by this >argument, the Mafia has a great deal going too. I wouldn't do what >Madonna is doing no matter how wealthy it would make me! How can you compare what the Mafia does with what Madonna does? What does Madonna do that is so awful? I have yet to hear anything terrible about Madonna in the media. I have heard a lot of hearsay from people on the net about the horrible things Madonna does and stands for. So far I haven't seen anything to corroborate the crap that's been slung about. >> I've heard Madonna give interviews and she's no gum-chewing, "boy >> toy" idiot. She has a gimmick and she's playing it to the hilt. >We should all have the highest respect for those who find a gimmick and >play it to the hilt, shouldn't we? This sort of stuff is great for >society! Right! Oh please! If we say that Madonna does damage to society by portraying an image that doesn't agree with the status quo, well, we might as well ban Madonna along with the Rolling Stones, the Grateful Dead and Led Zeppelin. All of these rock stars play off their image as perceived by America's youth. None of them have particularly sterling characters either. But I don't think watching them or listen- ing to them enforces deviant behavior in teenagers. Gimmik obviously has a negative connotation in the second quote. In my mind, this isn't fair. Lots of people have gimmacks. Liberace wears outrageous clothes. So does Elton John. The Rolling Stones are risque(well, they were once). Do we have less or more respect for them because they do? I don't think it matters a hell of a lot! The fact is that Liberace dresses wild and no one screams about him making money off his "gimmick", but Madonna does and it's an issue. >> She plays on sexuality. She plays on the fact that sex is still taboo. >And thus perpetuating that sex is taboo and all the unhealthy hang-ups >about sex people have. This is good? Are you making this up? I don't think Madonna's image reinforces the idea that sex is taboo. I think it reinforces the idea that sex is taboo among people who still believe sex is wrong because it scares the living tar out of them. People who haven't come to grips with their own sexuality are generally terrified of someone with a freer sexual outlook. (I can smell smoke for that last comment :-)) >> She represents raw sexuality. She picks no bones about it. >She represents fetishistic sexuality, rather than natural healthy >sexuality. What observations or facts do you base this statement on? You can't just make up things or give us YOUR own view of the situation and expect to convince the rest of us. I have seen no trace of fetish- istic sex in Madonna. She's pretty tame. In the movie "Desperately Seeking Susan" you get the feeling that her character's been around, but she seems to be pretty normal. A bit spacey, tough, streetwise, but basically normal. I don't even know if that's what Madonna is like! > What does her appeal say about teenagers? >>That they're being imprinted with an unhealthy and undesirable view of sex. What I've heard is that teenage girls are dressing like her and teenage boys find her sexy. Compared to the cardboard idols of the 70's (Farrah Fawcett comes to mind) I'd take Madonna anyday. Madonna is independent. She has decided her own destiny. For a little background for all you gossips, Madonna was hired by some rich guy to sit around and look pretty. She was essentially a model. She made a lot of money at this, I heard. But she quickly bored of it and deciced to follow her dream - to sing. >> And there is no denying that both Jackson and Madonna have strong >> images, images specially crafted to appeal to today's teenagers raised >> on MTV. These people are in it to make money, not corrupt our nation's >> youth. It's amazing how much flak they generate. >That's right! Music should be a calculated product. Not an art form! Good thing you're not in music. You'd be starving. The music should be art(though to class any popular music in the same class as Mozart is pretty disgusting), but there is nothing that says that the presentation shouldn't attract as much attention as possible. Image sells records just as much as music. As for music being calculated, I doubt very much that Madonna sat down and said "Gee, I better write some songs that will appeal to the teenagers out there." >> And besides, I don't really care a heck of a lot if Madonna's pictures >> got into Playboy and Penthouse. >There's nothing wrong with nudity. One can present a healthy and >natural image with one's cloths on or off. And one can present an >unhealthy, fetishistic image with one's clothes on or off. Madonna does >the latter with her clothes on and (I presume) with her clothes off. You couldn't convince me of this before and I still don't believe it. From what I've heard the pictures were pretty tame. I think the problem with Madonna is what goes on between your eyes and you brain, Doug. > I don't think she's a bad role model for young women. She's > independent, she knows what she wants and knows how to get it. >Perfect for the yuppie culture, huh? Who cares about integrity? By this statement, you are assuming that Madonna is doing something illegal or immoral to get what she wants. Prove it. And while you're at it, why don't you show us how you get what you want out of life if you don't know what you want and don't know how to get it. >> She's not the typical sex toy since she knows what she's doing and is >> controling her life by playing off the weakness men have for her. >How beneficial a role model! Just what we need! A whole generation of >manipulative bitches/bastards! Ah, so we see that women like Madonna scare you? Does Marilyn Monroe scare you? From my point of view she played off of the weakness that men had for her(she was sexy and beautiful). She just did it in a more palatable form. She played the weak female who needed male protection, just like most of the sex symbols of old. Now Madonna comes along and shows us a strong, independent woman who takes the old trappings and does it her way. She's not weak. She doesn't need men to take care of her. >> I'm really quite sick of the stink over Madonna. >I'm really quite sick of Madonna, and hope she soon fades into the >obscurity she so richly deserves. This is your opinion, to which you are entitled. I will continue to enjoy some of her songs, as will lots of other people. Sharon Badian ihnp4!mtgzz!seb
hymie@sftig.UUCP (D.Carno) (07/29/85)
This article is mainly in reply to Doug Alan's. I just happened to read Sharons reply first, so I couldn't ignore it. >>> s.badian >> doug alan >s. badian again >>> I think Madonna has a great deal going. She knows exactly how to get >>No one would argue that she's raking in the dough. But by this > How can you compare what the Mafia does with what Madonna does? What Thanks for saving me the trouble. >>> I've heard Madonna give interviews and she's no gum-chewing, "boy >>We should all have the highest respect for those who find a gimmick and > Oh please! If we say that Madonna does damage to society by > (explanation of how almost everyone famous in the world has > some sort of gimick) I do have respect (perhaps not the highest) for people who are intuitive enough to realize when something they have has value and how to make the most of it. Madonna does not survive on her sexuality alone, although I agree she could not have become what she is without it. But I cannot condemn someone for using what mother nature has given them to its limit. Not many people in the world know how to make the most out of potential (there are a lot of pretty, sexy girls in the world, a lot who are prettier and sexier than Madonna. Where are they? In a house somewhere, pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen? Not everyone has the brains and/or money to go to MIT, you know.) You may know a happy medium where everyone should exploit themselves up to a point but not too much, but I doubt that many people would agree with it. >>> She plays on sexuality. She plays on the fact that sex is still taboo. >>And thus perpetuating that sex is taboo and all the unhealthy hang-ups >>about sex people have. This is good? > Are you making this up? I don't think Madonna's image reinforces the > idea that sex is taboo. I think it reinforces the idea that sex is taboo > among people who still believe sex is wrong because it scares the > living tar out of them. People who haven't come to grips with their > own sexuality are generally terrified of someone with a freer sexual > outlook. (I can smell smoke for that last comment :-)) I just had to reprint that because I liked the way it looked. I'll mail you my +6 asbestosmail, Sharon. >>> She represents raw sexuality. She picks no bones about it. >>She represents fetishistic sexuality, rather than natural healthy sexuality. > What observations or facts do you base this statement on? > (some comments about Doug's lack of support for his statement) I don't know what world you live on Doug, but at least give me a definition of a fetish so I can understand what you're trying to say. As a matter of fact, I would like to hear what natural healthy sexuality means to you also. Do you preach on the side also? >>> What does her appeal say about teenagers? >>That they're being imprinted with an unhealthy and undesirable view of sex. > What I've heard is that teenage girls are dressing like her > (Some facts about Madonna's background, supporting her integrity > and likability) (is that a word?) How is Madonna radiating an unhealthy and undesireable view of sex? Do her songs have any explicit sexual connotations, good or bad? None that I've heard. Is it the way she dresses? Have you ever been to a beach? >>> And there is no denying that both Jackson and Madonna have strong images >>That's right! Music should be a calculated product. Not an art form! > Good thing you're not in music. You'd be starving. The music > (comments describing the small musicians job market) Well, I don't know. Even if the artists (Ohh! How COULD I refer to Madonna as well as the other popular songwriters/singers as an artists?) don't mainly write songs that they think will appeal to teenagers (which I think they do - they have to to survive) I doubt something that wasn't appealing somewhat to the younger generation would make it past the producers. However, why must music that you don't like always not be an art form to you? What rules are Madonna/Phil Collins/others- on-the-Doug-Alan's-most-hated-list breaking? Art is not art because it is art (what?). Art is art because the people decide that it is. And the art the the majority of the population agrees upon as art is what is going to be art in future history. What makes people in this day and age less capable of deciding what is art as well as or better than people in DiVinci's, Michelangelo's, Bach's, Mozart's, or anybody else's time, including yours? Maybe Madonna doesn't have as much musical talent as Kate Bush, but she has enough talent to make herself a heck of a lot more popular than Kate. Could that be considered an art form? >>> And besides, I don't really care a heck of a lot if Madonna's pictures >>There's nothing wrong with nudity. One can present a healthy and >>natural image with one's cloths on or off. And one can present an >>unhealthy, fetishistic image with one's clothes on or off. Madonna does >>the latter with her clothes on and (I presume) with her clothes off. > > You couldn't convince me of this before and I still don't believe > it. From what I've heard the pictures were pretty tame. I think the > problem with Madonna is what goes on between your eyes and you brain, > Doug. Well, we've aready discussed your fetishes, so I won't go into that again (anybody seen my matches?). However, I have seen the pictures and you presume wrong. They were your basic nudes, and one set was even only done topless, if that means anything. >>> I don't think she's a bad role model for young women. She's >>> independent, she knows what she wants and knows how to get it. >>Perfect for the yuppie culture, huh? Who cares about integrity? > By this statement, you are assuming that Madonna is doing > something illegal or immoral to get what she wants. Prove it. And > while you're at it, why don't you show us how you get what you want > out of life if you don't know what you want and don't know how to > get it. Why do you think Madonna lacks integrity for being independent and getting what she wants? I don't think anything I've ever heard about her and her rise to the top that supports this, other than rumors. Do you know something I don't? I'd like to hear it if you do. >>> She's not the typical sex toy since she knows what she's doing and is >>> controling her life by playing off the weakness men have for her. >>How beneficial a role model! Just what we need! A whole generation of >>manipulative bitches/bastards! > Ah, so we see that women like Madonna scare you? Does Marilyn > (comments about Madonna broadcasting an independent image as opposed to > the long accepted dependent image) > need men to take care of her. Monroe's form was only more palatable to men who have dominant male tendancies and women who have submissive female tendancies. I think independent women scorned Monroe the same way Doug scorns Madonna. But then again maybe they were just jealous. >>> I'm really quite sick of the stink over Madonna. >>I'm really quite sick of Madonna, and hope she soon fades into the >>obscurity she so richly deserves. > This is your opinion, to which you are entitled. I will > continue to enjoy some of her songs, as will lots of other people. > Sharon Badian > ihnp4!mtgzz!seb I think Sharon must more mature than I, since I would have flamed Doug for speaking in such a fashion about one of my idols. Thanks for the lesson. Although I do think think he's narrow-minded and I don't think much of his opinion. David Carno ATTIS Summit, N.J. ihnp4!sftig!hymie To hell with moderation, you're gonna die anyway.
plw@mgwess.UUCP (Pete Wilson) (07/30/85)
Where were all you people who don't like Madonna's image when Deborah Harry (lead singer for Blondie) did nude scenes in the movie 'Videodrome'? I don't remember any sort of ruckus about her! I think the problem is envy, jealousy, or a feeling that Madonna isn't earning the big bucks she's getting. Take a listen to 'Money For Nothin' by Dire Straights for an example of this attitude. BTW, I almost hurt myself falling off my chair when someone posting to this group said that Tina Turner didn't use sex to sell records! It may be that that person thinks that TT has more talent than Madonna, so they ignored or missed TT's use of 'sexual promise'. Good for a laugh, though.... Pete Wilson AT&T IS CBSG Montgomery Works ..!ihnp4!mgnetp!mgwess!plw <If life begins at 40, what is it that ends at 39?>
chris@pyuxc.UUCP (R. Hollenbeck) (07/30/85)
I think Madonna is the perfect Marilyn Monroe for the Reagan years (although I'm not suggesting a Reagan/Madonna affair comparable to the Kennedy/Monroe liaison [alleged]).
gds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (08/23/85)
I can see two problems which people have with Madonna:
(1) She has insulted Christians by her disrespectful wearing of the
cross and her attitude towards sex ("I'm not ashamed of anything I
do!").
(2) Because she is not ashamed, neither are a lot of teenage girls --
she has "sold" the idea that promiscuity is OK to teenage girls.
I have no particular complaint with Madonna. I can see how a teenage
girl might be affected by her though -- whenever I go shopping I see
tons of Madonna look-alikes and wonder what kind of influence she has
had on them. Me, I just listen to the music.
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards,
for they are subtle and quick to anger.
Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, allegra, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
gds@mit-eddie.mit.edunessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) (08/25/85)
> From: gds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) > I can see two problems which people have with Madonna: > (1) She has insulted Christians by her disrespectful wearing of the > cross and her attitude towards sex ("I'm not ashamed of anything I > do!"). > (2) Because she is not ashamed, neither are a lot of teenage girls -- > she has "sold" the idea that promiscuity is OK to teenage girls. Well, you certainly haven't seen what I've been saying. I don't think either of the two "problems" you mention are problems. I don't care if she is disrespectful towards Christianity, and I have nothing against promiscuity. Neither do I care whether or not she has posed nude or been in sexually explicit movies. As I have repeatedly said before, I object to her because she promotes being a tease and using sex as a tool of manipulation rather than as a natural form of joy and communication. NO one has to "prove" their love to me Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)