frye@cuuxa.UUCP (frye) (09/11/85)
Just read a couple of Marcel Simon's replys about females ogling males. His oppinion is that men don't like it. I just thought I'd put in my $.02 worth on the subject. I really don't care. It doesn't bother me, o' course its only happened twice in my life time. But, consider. The shoe was on the other foot for so long. Now, women may be tending to make things a little more even. I've posted before that I think women are, among all their other plusses, wonderful scenery. There's nothing wrong with "boy watchin" girls. Go for it. You guys who don't like it can become munks. You ladies who don't like me watching, why did you put on the "warpaint"? Why does anyone go to the trouble of trying to look attractive, then turn around and complain 'cause the other sex looks at them? Beats the hell out of me. Yeah, I know. That guy couldbe sizing you up for more than just his eyes' pleasure ladies. But, I still say that its a problem with politicians and attorneys. Rape would be a real problem for the rapist if it weren't for our justice system. Go commit mayhem on an attorney once in a while. Make you feel good and keep them asshole humble at the same time. Tom "have you tortured a lawyer today?" Frye
mmar@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Mitchell Marks) (09/13/85)
Much of the discussion under this heading ... sorry, I see now it's been
changed ... the discussion under "Is feminism reverse sexism?" has concentrated
on whether men like or resent being ogled, whistled at, etc. I'd like to
mention another aspect of this. Men in general can dislike seeing this
practice become prevalent for precisely one of the reasons that women have
objected to the traditional equivalent reverse practice: it creates and imposes
a ridiculous standard of physical appearance.
In other words, and to make it personal, I really resent something like the
tv commercial that sparked this topic, because I don't want to live in
an atmosphere where in some sense I `ought to' look like that guy in the
ad. Not just that I couldn't (though indeed I couldn't): jeez, I sure
wouldn't even *want* to. I don't like the idea of living up to an arbitrary
physical standard, even if it were a more reasonable one. Write it off,
if you wish, to some kind of spite and envy: those who will not be whistled
at don't like the whistling. True enough, but it's still not a good
atmosphere. (By the way, no, I'm not at all bad-looking; I just don't
expect to turn heads and make jaws drop just by walking along.)
A remark from the gander-goose-sauce line might be in order here. Fair
enough, women have had to put up with this for a long time. But saying
that it's time men had to put up with it is an acknowledgement that
there's something wrong with it. And this has also long been a feminist
postion that I completely agree with (but then, I agree with most
feminist positions). The problem with beauty pageants, for instance, is
not just that these particular women are being displayed and ogled for
their bodily appearance alone and treated as sex objects. Rather, the
wider effects are an atmosphere in which women are `supposed' to
look *just like that*; and are supposed to work at it; and are made
to feel bad if they can't measure up (yeah, pretty literally measure
up is part of it).
Please, I hope nobody is reading so fast that they mis-take that last
paragraph as the very old and very obnoxious anti-feminist line about
"it's just the ugly ones who are complaining". My point is that complaints
of both sorts are legitimate: from women who are pestered by strangers,
and complain of being treated as sex objects; and other women who live
in this atmosphere, and complain about the pressure to dress, groom, make
up, diet, and exercise to look like the (role-) models. In the first
flush of turnabout-is-fair play, men may for a while like the attention,
and not have the first sort of complaint; indeed, they may not bother
with the first sort of complaint (some postings have suggested), because
they don't face the same real physical intimidation that women do. But
my focus has been on the second sort of complaint, to point out that men
can (and should) object on these grounds.
--
-- Mitch Marks @ UChicago
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!mmar