mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) (09/01/85)
Now that I have your attention, put down those flamethrowers! I am referring to feminism as seen by Madison Ave. There is an ad, for a weightlifting machine, that shows what I mean. Two women on a beach are discussing what they like in a man: chests, pectorals, legs, or whatever. Meanwhile some piece of beefcake is shown using the machine is question in pornographic close-up. His face is never shown, irrelevant. The ad ends again with the women seeing the beefcake walking by in a skimpy bathing suit and exclaiming "Now that is what I like" followed by various other comments directed at the guy, with much lewd giggles. Now imagine the same ad with the genders reversed. We would all (rightly) be outraged. Why do advertisers feel that treating men as pieces of meat is all right? This is by no means the only such ad, though it is the most blatant, that I have seen. Perhaps the advertising industry, male dominated, feels that raised consciousness means going down in the gutter with the other pigs? Comments? Marcel Simon
whitehur@tymix.UUCP (Pamela K. Whitehurst) (09/03/85)
In article <415@mhuxr.UUCP> mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) writes: >Now that I have your attention, put down those flamethrowers! > >I am referring to feminism as seen by Madison Ave. There is an ad, >for a weightlifting machine, that shows what I mean. Two women on >a beach are discussing what they like in a man: chests, pectorals, >legs, or whatever. Meanwhile some piece of beefcake is shown using the >machine is question in pornographic close-up. His face is never shown, >irrelevant. The ad ends again with the women seeing the beefcake >walking by in a skimpy bathing suit and exclaiming "Now that is >what I like" followed by various other comments directed at the guy, >with much lewd giggles. > >Now imagine the same ad with the genders reversed. We would all (rightly) >be outraged. Why do advertisers feel that treating men as pieces >of meat is all right? This is by no means the only such ad, though >it is the most blatant, that I have seen. Perhaps the advertising >industry, male dominated, feels that raised consciousness means >going down in the gutter with the other pigs? > >Comments? > >Marcel Simon Some people in the advertising industry will use any means they can get away with. They probably think they can sell a lot of machines to guys who are having trouble attracting girls by usinbg that approach. If it works they will continue. Why settle with only trying to convince 50% of the population that they need to consume to be attractive? I think the advertising industry, at least that part, feels they can make money and does not care about raised consciousness or gutters or pigs. -- PKW hplabs!oliveb!tymix!whitehur
jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (09/05/85)
> > There is an ad, for a weightlifting machine, that shows what I mean. > Two women on a beach are discussing what they like in a man: chests, > pectorals, > legs, or whatever. Meanwhile some piece of beefcake is shown using the > machine is question in pornographic close-up. His face is never shown, > irrelevant. The ad ends again with the women seeing the beefcake > walking by in a skimpy bathing suit and exclaiming "Now that is > what I like" followed by various other comments directed at the guy, > with much lewd giggles. > > Why do advertisers feel that treating men as pieces > of meat is all right? Perhaps the advertising > industry, male dominated, feels that raised consciousness means > going down in the gutter with the other pigs? > > Comments? > > Marcel Simon Advertisers are not interested in feminism as a political movement or a philosophy. They are only interested in selling the product. They will use any kind of manipulation they think they can get away with. In this case I guess they are hoping: - that women will associate the product with the good-looking male body - that the ad will create an carefree atmosphere that will leave women feeling they will be allowed to have fun ogling men and making lewd comments if they buy the product - that the ad will appeal to women's anger at having been treated this way themselves, and that women will associate the product with a feeling of sweet revenge - that the ad will identify the company as feminist (or at least non-sexist), which will make women want to buy the product. This last type of manipulation is the most dishonest, and I've seen lots of ads that are much worse. The series of "Super-Mom" ads that showed up on television several years ago were terrible (for example, ads where a brand of shampoo is shown to help a woman through a long, hard day of *achieving* in the board room, on the dance floor, etc.). These ads always pissed me off, because I realized they were saying, "See how liberated we are? That's why you should buy our product." -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
janec@tektools.UUCP (Jane Caputo) (09/08/85)
> In article <415@mhuxr.UUCP> mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) writes: > >The ad ends again with the women seeing the beefcake > >walking by in a skimpy bathing suit and exclaiming "Now that is > >what I like" followed by various other comments directed at the guy, > >with much lewd giggles. > > > >Now imagine the same ad with the genders reversed. We would all (rightly) > >be outraged. Why do advertisers feel that treating men as pieces > >of meat is all right? > > > >Marcel Simon > > Some people in the advertising industry will use any means they can get > away with. They probably think they can sell a lot of machines to guys > who are having trouble attracting girls by usinbg that approach. > > PKW > hplabs!oliveb!tymix!whitehur I certainly don't advocate that approach, either as an advertising technique or as a real-life response to the opposite sex. However, I really wonder if it *is* less offensive to men, simply because they don't have to put up with it all the time. It recently happened to my 16-year-old son, who is a weight lifter. He was walking around without a shirt on when a carful of girls came by, hollering remarks and asking him to turn around. He came home and told me what an ego boost it was. He was just disappointed that they didn't stop to talk to him. I wonder how many adult men would feel the same way. Jane Carrasco Caputo {allegra, ihnp4, decvax, ucbvax...}!tektronix!tektools!janec Tektronix, Inc. M.S. 74-900 P.O. Box 500 Beaverton, OR 97077 (503) 627-1764
scott@hou2g.UUCP (Racer X) (09/10/85)
>>>The ad ends again with the women seeing the beefcake >>>walking by in a skimpy bathing suit and exclaiming "Now that is >>>what I like" followed by various other comments directed at the guy, >>>with much lewd giggles. >> Some people in the advertising industry will use any means they can get >> away with. They probably think they can sell a lot of machines to guys >> who are having trouble attracting girls by usinbg that approach. >I certainly don't advocate that approach, either as an advertising technique >or as a real-life response to the opposite sex. However, I really wonder >if it *is* less offensive to men, simply because they don't have to put >up with it all the time. It recently happened to my 16-year-old son, > He came >home and told me what an ego boost it was. He was just disappointed that >they didn't stop to talk to him. I wonder how many adult men would feel the >same way. I think quite a few. I'd certainly consider it an ego boost. I think the difference between men and women on this is centered on the fear of rape and/or sexual harrassment. Men don't normally fear things going any further than the "ogle" or "whistle". Women often do (usually with justification). I think *some* men, myself on occasion, mean a "whistle" to be a compliment, AND NOTHING MORE. (Unfortunately, many men don't.) So a man is more likely to take it this way (i.e. lightly) when it happens to him. SJBerry pick_a_site!any_site!ihnp4!hou2g!scott
mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) (09/10/85)
> >ME > >The ad ends again with the women seeing the beefcake > >walking by in a skimpy bathing suit and exclaiming "Now that is > >what I like" followed by various other comments directed at the guy, > >with much lewd giggles. > > > >Now imagine the same ad with the genders reversed. We would all (rightly) > >be outraged. Why do advertisers feel that treating men as pieces > >of meat is all right? > > > PKW > Some people in the advertising industry will use any means they can get > away with. They probably think they can sell a lot of machines to guys > who are having trouble attracting girls by usinbg that approach. > I am aware that the advertising or any other industry is more interested in profits than in social conscience, but ads that are offensive to women (you know, the ones that show women fulfilled by spending a day cleaning the oven) have been (rightfully) attacked as reinforcing sexist attitudes by feminist (and mainstream) writers. Now that we have sexist ads directed at men, the silence is deafening. That is what I would like to discuss. Comments? Marcel Simon
mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) (09/10/85)
> > Some people in the advertising industry will use any means they can get > > away with. They probably think they can sell a lot of machines to guys > > who are having trouble attracting girls by usinbg that approach. > > > > PKW > > I certainly don't advocate that approach, either as an advertising technique > or as a real-life response to the opposite sex. However, I really wonder > if it *is* less offensive to men, simply because they don't have to put > up with it all the time. It recently happened to my 16-year-old son, who > is a weight lifter. He was walking around without a shirt on when a carful > of girls came by, hollering remarks and asking him to turn around. He came > home and told me what an ego boost it was. He was just disappointed that > they didn't stop to talk to him. I wonder how many adult men would feel the > same way. > > Jane Carrasco Caputo If a man posted that article in response to a complaint by a woman about a sexist ad, would he not get flamed to death as an insensitive, testosterone-poisoned, "macho asshole"? No, Ms Caputo, generic men are not less offended by being considered a piece of meat, even if one weightlifting teenager sees it as an ego boost. Marcel Simon
sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (09/11/85)
In article <428@mhuxr.UUCP> mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) writes: >I am aware that the advertising or any other industry is more interested >in profits than in social conscience, but ads that are offensive to women >(you know, the ones that show women fulfilled by spending a day cleaning >the oven) have been (rightfully) attacked as reinforcing sexist attitudes >by feminist (and mainstream) writers. Now that we have sexist ads directed >at men, the silence is deafening. That is what I would like to discuss. > >Marcel Simon Well, these ads are not new. Remember the one about the guy getting sand kicked in his face? I don't think that the "silence" is in indication of some dark plot the reverse roles, probably simply that feminist women who complain about sexist stuff against women simply don't care as much about sexist stuff about men or have a hard time recognising it since it is not against themselves. Maybe they don't think it is their business. After all most of these ads are writen by men against other men, so they figure that if men cared enough, they would object, just like women got organised to object against sexism for women. -- Sophie Quigley {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
features@ihuxf.UUCP (aMAZon) (09/11/85)
Marcel Simon writes: > I am aware that the advertising or any other industry is more interested > in profits than in social conscience, but ads that are offensive to women > (you know, the ones that show women fulfilled by spending a day cleaning > the oven) have been (rightfully) attacked as reinforcing sexist attitudes > by feminist (and mainstream) writers. Now that we have sexist ads directed > at men, the silence is deafening. That is what I would like to discuss. > Who do you think should do the shouting? I only have so much energy to deal with problems, and while this is a problem, it is not as high on my list as others. -- aMAZon @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL; ihnp4!ihuxf!features
oaf@mit-vax.UUCP (Oded Feingold) (09/11/85)
> I think *some* men, myself on occasion, mean a "whistle" > to be a compliment, AND NOTHING MORE. > SJBerry ------------------------------ At the risk of sounding like a moralizing twit, I would not admit to whistling at women. However YOU mean it, it is typically the opening line to harassment, and the women of my acquaintance unanimously despise (and fear) such behavior. (Coincidentally, I wouldn't do it.) As to Jane Caputo's son getting whistles and comments from passing women, he had the certainty of staying in control of the situation, no fear for his physical safety, and presumably A BASIC TRUST in those women's goodwill and friendliness, no matter where or how far things went. (What would they do, rape and murder him, then leave his body by the side of the road?) I submit that women getting whistles have _none_ of those comforts. In particular, they don't have the capitalized stuff above, and that (not strength or physical vulnerability) is at the center of the oppression and intimidation they face. By the way, such accounts serve as partial refutation to Sunny Kirsten's accusation, that men's conversations are interrupted by the sight of an attractive woman, whereas the reverse doesn't hold true. Presumably, those women were discussing something else when he came along. Perhaps our similarities are greater than our differences. (I don't even know whether it's something to hope for.) [Long, long ago, when I was remotely close to physically fit, and jogging on a hot summer day, I got similar treatment from some women in a car. I felt rather complimented, then acutely embarrassed: I was too tired to do anything, even trade wisecracks or phone numbers. (Now I'm more level-headed, but opportunity knocks not for alte kakkers.)] > If a man posted that article in response to a complaint by a > woman about a sexist ad, would he not get flamed to death as > an insensitive, testosterone-poisoned, "macho asshole"? > > No, Ms Caputo, generic men are not less offended by being > considered a piece of meat, even if one weightlifting > teenager sees it as an ego boost. > Marcel Simon ------------------------------ Mais non, Mr. Simon, we don't do that kind of stuff around here. Nor do I think Ms. Caputo is getting away with something for which a man would be flamed. [To death?] Though I won't disagree that generic men are offended by being treated as meat, I think a critical difference lies in social realities: Men do NOT get that kind of treatment from women. Even if Master Caputo got it as a come-on, he could probably expect more interesting socialization had he and they stopped than the female analogue of "spread 'em." My feeling is that he was complimented on his physique (and presumably the attention he paid to building it) and teased for a taste of role reversal. I don't tease or humor my meat, but perhaps you are a rancher and know better. -- Oded Feingold MIT AI Lab. 545 Tech Square Cambridge, Mass. 02139 OAF%OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA {harvard, ihnp4!mit-eddie}!mitvax!oaf 617-253-8598
robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) (09/12/85)
In article <429@mhuxr.UUCP>, mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) writes: > No, Ms Caputo, generic men are not less offended by being considered > a piece of meat, even if one weightlifting teenager sees it as an ego > boost. What's a generic man? My supermarket doesn't seem to stock them... -- Robert Plamondon {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert
lonetto@phri.UUCP (Michael Lonetto) (09/14/85)
> > or as a real-life response to the opposite sex. However, I really wonder > > if it *is* less offensive to men, simply because they don't have to put > > up with it all the time. It recently happened to my 16-year-old son, who > > is a weight lifter. He was walking around without a shirt on when a carful > > of girls came by, hollering remarks and asking him to turn around. He came > > home and told me what an ego boost it was. He was just disappointed that >> they didn't stop to talk to him. I wonder how many adult men would feel the > > same way. > > Jane Carrasco Caputo > > No, Ms Caputo, generic men are not less offended by being considered > a piece of meat, even if one weightlifting teenager sees it as an ego > boost. > Marcel Simon I've only been whistled at twice in my life, both times in the last couple of years, and both times by teenage girls. It seems that equality of the sexes may have to take the form of women becoming more aggressive before men become any less aggressive. It might actually be good in the long run, forcing each sex into the same problems could give us a little more empathy for each other. -- ____________________ Michael Lonetto Public Health Research Institute, 455 1st Ave, NY, NY 10016 (allegra!phri!lonetto) "BUY ART, NOT COCAINE"
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (09/14/85)
In article <428@mhuxr.UUCP> mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON) writes: >in profits than in social conscience, but ads that are offensive to women >(you know, the ones that show women fulfilled by spending a day cleaning >the oven) have been (rightfully) attacked as reinforcing sexist attitudes >by feminist (and mainstream) writers. Now that we have sexist ads directed >at men, the silence is deafening. That is what I would like to discuss. I think it is good for men to "have the shoe on the other foot" for a time. Makes empathy so much easier, you know? -- I hate "recreational volleyball". I like to play for blood. Phil Ngai (408) 749-5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPA
tron@fluke.UUCP (Peter Barbee) (09/18/85)
>> Jane Carrasco Caputo >> [discussion of males as sex symbols] However, I really wonder >> if it *is* less offensive to men, simply because they don't have to put >> up with it all the time. It recently happened to my 16-year-old son, who >> is a weight lifter. He was walking around without a shirt on when a carful >> of girls came by, hollering remarks and asking him to turn around. He came >> home and told me what an ego boost it was. He was just disappointed that >> they didn't stop to talk to him. I wonder how many adult men would feel the >> same way. >> >Marcel Simon > >No, Ms Caputo, generic men are not less offended by being considered >a piece of meat, even if one weightlifting teenager sees it as an ego >boost. > A little fuel for the fire; I agree with Jane. It is not often that women treat me as a sex symbol (just a piece of meat), and when they do I *do* like the boost to my ego. It's OK with me if you're attracted to my body, if it turns out that that is all you're attracted to things aren't going to work out anyway. If this happened all the time I'm sure I would tire of it - but once or twice a year is not causing me any pain. Perhaps a *very* big difference is that when a woman whistles at me (it really did happen just the other day, but bike shorts do show off my best features |-). I feel that it is because she likes the way *my* body looks, she is not reacting to just any apparently available male. From what I hear women tend to feel that many of the advances they get (and they get advances, not just catcalls) are aimed at them because they are a woman, not because they are particularly attractive (even though they may well be). Peter B
linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (09/21/85)
> *do* like the boost to my ego. It's OK with me if you're attracted to my body, > if it turns out that that is all you're attracted to things aren't going > to work out anyway. > > If this happened all the time I'm sure I would tire of it - but once or twice > a year is not causing me any pain. > > Perhaps a *very* big difference is that when a woman whistles at me (it really > did happen just the other day, but bike shorts do show off my best features |-). > I feel that it is because she likes the way *my* body looks, she is not > reacting to just any apparently available male. From what I hear women tend > to feel that many of the advances they get (and they get advances, not just > catcalls) are aimed at them because they are a woman, not because they are > particularly attractive (even though they may well be). > Women wouldn't mind whistling if it stopped there. Unfortunately, if a woman gave any positive feedback to a whistler, the next question would be "Wanna go to my place honey...?". Even if you smile at a strange man on a bus or in a store, disastrous consequences may occur. Having grown up in an urban area (Phildelphia) I always respond to whistlers by pretending to ignore them or by making a disapproving facial expression. I expect and want to be left alone and not paid attention to by strangers and will consider anything other than a request for road directions as a possible act leading to violent crime. If any man tried to pay undue attention to be on the street, I would not hesitate to call the police. Linda