linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (08/16/85)
I don't think that some of the inappropriately sarcastic and rejecting responses to Sunny's observations are necessarily due to Sunny's life experience. There are some men who are very hostile to any woman who presents herself in a self-assured, competent and non-deferential manner. Women are expected to speak with different (less self confident and assertive) speech patterns than men, and they are never supposed to engage in head-on intellectual debate with a man. I saw a woman lose a possible position at a large company because in a seminar she argued with a male speaker, saying "Frankly, that is not the case" rather than saying: "Don't you think that ... might be plausible?". As Sunny experiences more and more of womanhood I suspect that she will experience more and more of this phenomena from some individuals.
demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) (08/24/85)
> I don't think that some of the inappropriately sarcastic and > rejecting responses to Sunny's observations are necessarily > due to Sunny's life experience. There are some men who are > very hostile to any woman who presents herself in a self-assured, > competent and non-deferential manner. And there are some women who do same...as a matter of fact, I object to men who behave as pompous asses as much as I object to women who behave as pompous asses... > Women are expected to > speak with different (less self confident and assertive) > speech patterns than men, and they are never supposed to > engage in head-on intellectual debate with a man. This, unfortunately, is sad, but true in some cases. I have seen many cases of men who feel that women who don't say "yes sir" to everything are "too aggressive." There are also women, however, that believe the same thing.... > As Sunny experiences more and more of > womanhood I suspect that she will experience more and more > of this phenomena from some individuals. And this statement houses the crux of my objects to Sunny boisterously proclaiming "the voice of experience." Sunny was not born a woman, she did not grow up a woman (although she may have felt that she wanted to), she spent her earlier years growing up as a man. This cannot be erased... I'm amazed that women out there weren't offended by Sunny's claims that she "knows what its like to be a woman." (Anyone ever read "Black Like Me"?) Pumping yourself up with hormones, and assuming the personna of someone of the opposite gender does not give you the right to proclaim "womanhood." (A little drug alteration never hurt anybody, eh?) I have no objection to the concept of a member of one sex, feeling uncomfortable with his/her sex, taking "modern" advantages to alter his/her biology to the opposite gender...but that is a far cry from being that gender. ...and while I'm ranting and raving, let me voice another complaint: what is the problem with this newsgroup? If a man says something: a woman points a finger, if a woman says something, a man points a finger. What's with the man vs. woman stuff? I joined this newsgroup because I thought it would give me an opportunity as a man to: (a) hear life from a woman's point of view and (b) hear what other men feel about what's happening from the woman's point of view. I'm not sure I expressed all that quite right, but I sure am disappointed... -- --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo "...That's enough, that's enough! Television's takin' its toll. Turn it off, turn it off! Give me the remote control! I've been nice! I've been good! Please don't do this to me! I've been nice, turn it off, I don't wanna hav'ta see... ...'The Brady Bunch!'"
chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns) (08/28/85)
Rob DeMillo > I'm amazed that women out there weren't offended by Sunny's claims > that she "knows what its like to be a woman." (Anyone ever > read "Black Like Me"?) > > Pumping yourself up with hormones, and assuming the personna of someone > of the opposite gender does not give you the right to proclaim > "womanhood." (A little drug alteration never hurt anybody, eh?) If you're so amazed, maybe you should stop being amazed and learn something from it. If women aren't proclaiming offense, it's possible that they don't feel any. Why should we trash Sunny? Everybody's growing up experience is different, I don't say Sunny speaks for me, but I sure do think she has an interesting background from which to speak, very different from mine but no less valid. What about women who are raised like sons? Do we discredit them if they didn't own enough pink party dresses before the age of 10?! If I told you "what it's like to be a woman", would you believe me to have the whole truth? Wouldn't you base it on what other women say too? What you have said, on the other hand, is cruel. And particularly unfortunate at this time: it's another log on the fire. With crud like this, we may never convince Sunny or another (declared) transsexual to contribute. Whatever you may think of the treatment, can't you see that it means a tremendous amount to that persons undergoing it? If Sunny makes comments about male hormones that you find cruel, discuss (or whatever) *that*. If you're problem is instead a hangup or ignorance about transsexuals, why don't you suspend your hangup for just awhile and see if you can't learn something--what do you think many of the rest of us have been doing?! The best response to someone expressing disappointment with a newsgroup usually runs something like--go away or help make it the nice place you really want. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
jamcmullan@wateng.UUCP (Judy McMullan) (08/30/85)
>I'm amazed that women out there weren't offended by Sunny's claims >that she "knows what its like to be a woman." (Anyone ever >read "Black Like Me"?) > >Pumping yourself up with hormones, and assuming the personna of someone >of the opposite gender does not give you the right to proclaim >"womanhood." (A little drug alteration never hurt anybody, eh?) >I have no objection to the concept of a member of one sex, feeling >uncomfortable with his/her sex, taking "modern" advantages to >alter his/her biology to the opposite gender...but that is a >far cry from being that gender. Offended? My goodness no! I love reading what Sunny has to say. There is a difference between sex and gender. If someone is born with a certain set of chromosomes THEIR GENDER IDENTITY DOES NOT ALWAYS MATCH. True. Believe it. Look it up in an introductory psych text. And, though biology determines one's reproductive ability, gender ("manhood" and "womanhood" from a psychological viewpoint) has been known to deviate from biology -- sometimes through early training and sometimes through some innate predilection. It seems to me that Sunny has not "assumed the personna of someone of the opposite gender" but her gender identity is closest to a woman's. ("gender" is a concept -- not something measurable like chromosomes). So, I think that combined with the hormones and life of a woman qualify her pretty well to talk as a woman. I sure agree with a lot more of her views on what women want than I do with Phyllis Schafly (sp?)!! --from the sssstickkky keyboard of JAM ...!{ihnp4|clyde|decvax}!watmath!wateng!jamcmullan
cfs@uvacs.UUCP (Cathy Summers) (09/11/85)
>Rob DeMillo >> >> Pumping yourself up with hormones, and assuming the personna of someone >> of the opposite gender does not give you the right to proclaim >> "womanhood." (A little drug alteration never hurt anybody, eh?) As Sunny stated, we are changing to the correct not opposite gender. Yes, I too am a transsexual. I have been somewhat shy about contributing to this discussion because I am currently seeking employment and lost one job when I told a prospective employer that I was in the process of changing my sex (they were willing to let me come to work under any name that I chose but until the sex reassignment process was completed I would have had to "function as a male" while at work) and didn't want to risk losing other offers. I am also no glutton for punishment (the friction between myself and my parents that my decision has caused is enough), and given the attacks on Sunny, I didn't want to open myself up for any similar shots. I can't give you any definitive answers on what causes transsexualism, nor can I analyze what the effects of the therapy are for anyone but myself. I can support Sunny's original claim that groups of males only do show a preoccupation with sex and sexual jokes and comments. I've observed this while working in a McDonalds as a teenager, with the upper middle class kids with whom I went to school, and the relatively "educated" people from diverse backgrounds who are fellow graduate students. I'm not saying that ALL males act that way; I'm just saying that a lot do. As to Sunny's comments about the changes in mental outlook produced by the estrogen therapy > My only expectations were of physical changes to my body, i.e. the reason for > taking them was related to my transition from male to female body > characteristics. My observations of mental changes were unexpected, and are > mostly of less agression/assertion/sex-obsession and more passive/peaceful/ > sensuality/emotionality. I too take estrogens to produce physical changes in my body. From readings in the medical literature and in the ordinary press, I knew that with the increase in the ratio of estrogens to testosterone I could experience a decrease in my libido (read: sexual drive) and an increase in physical sensitivity and sensuality. I didn't expect that I'd become more patient or empathic, but I have. I don't know that these changes are directly attributable to the hormones, or are simply coming about as I am finally reaching a more stable existence. For the previous several years, as I tried to deny the feeling that I am a female, I led a strange life. The part of me that was trying to deny my transsexualism tied to be strong and masculine, mentally and physically. I know that it is not necessary to be "a macho stud" to be a male; I know that males can be nice sensitive people (at least that's the rumor I hear :-), but underneath it all I disliked my body and the roles society offered. I tried various methods of denying the feelings and convincing myself that I was a male, and that I wanted to live my life as a male. I used to feel somewhat schizophrenic; that I was a male and a female, and that the two were separate identities as I tried to disassociate my public persona from my true feelings. Two years ago, I decided that I could no longer deny the feelings. I've been taking estrogens on a monthly cycle for the last eighteen months. Yes, there are some days in the cycle when I don't feel as good as others, but I don't think that my mental capabilities are at all diminished during those periods. The estrogens have had the desired effect of starting the development of female secondary sex characteristics. Also, as I mentioned above, I find that I am more patient and empathic. Is this due to the estrogens or due to an easing of the tensions in my life? I'm not sure. Now that I accept what and who I am and the consequences of my decision, I am definitely happier. I no longer feel like two people or try to hide part of my feelings or history in another "person". With the exception of this audience, I also do not broadcast the fact that I was a male. While there are still some parts of my body that I dislike, I now know that it is only a matter of time before I'll be complete. L.S. Chabot wrote > Everybody's growing up experience is >different, I don't say Sunny speaks for me, but I sure do think she has an >interesting background from which to speak, very different from mine but no less >valid. > and > With crud like this, we may never >convince Sunny or another (declared) transsexual to contribute. Whatever you >may think of the treatment, can't you see that it means a tremendous amount to >that persons undergoing it? If Sunny makes comments about male hormones that >you find cruel, discuss (or whatever) *that*. If you're problem is instead >a hangup or ignorance about transsexuals, why don't you suspend your hangup for >just awhile and see if you can't learn something--what do you think many of the >rest of us have been doing?! > It is in response to her statement that she is trying to "learn something" that prompted me to contribute. I hope that this article helped those of you who wanted to learn more about transsexualism through the feelings and thoughts of another transsexual. Cathy Summers ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!cfs
todd@scirtp.UUCP (Todd Jones) (09/13/85)
...explanation of transexuality and causes... > I've been taking estrogens on a monthly cycle for the last eighteen months. > Yes, there are some days in the cycle when I don't feel as good as others, > but I don't think that my mental capabilities are at all diminished during > those periods. The estrogens have had the desired effect of starting the > development of female secondary sex characteristics. Also, as I mentioned > above, I find that I am more patient and empathic. Is this due to the > estrogens or due to an easing of the tensions in my life? I'm not sure. > > Now that I accept what and who I am and the consequences of my decision, > I am definitely happier. I no longer feel like two people or try to hide > part of my feelings or history in another "person". With the exception of > this audience, I also do not broadcast the fact that I was a male. While > there are still some parts of my body that I dislike, I now know that > it is only a matter of time before I'll be complete. > > It is in response to her statement that she is trying to "learn something" > that prompted me to contribute. I hope that this article helped those of > you who wanted to learn more about transsexualism through the feelings and > thoughts of another transsexual. > > Cathy Summers ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!cfs I don't mean to discourage Sunny from posting, but I'll tell you one thing: Cathy's posting was so non-judgemental and enlightening that it gave me a very good insight into the internal soul-searching of someone endowed with mismatching gender and personal identities. I read Sunny's postings regularly, to try to get some insight on gender roles and societal expectations, but I am often dismayed at the level of bitterness (perhaps it is responding to the, undoubtedly, huge amount of hate mail sent to her) in her postings. I hope Cathy's offering will foster interest in the subject that will allow more netters to contribute in a productive way. ||||||| || || [ O-O ] Todd Jones \ ^ / {decvax,akgua}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!todd | ~ | |___| SCI Systems Inc. doesn't necessarily agree with Todd.
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (09/20/85)
In article <2364@uvacs.UUCP> cfs@uvacs.UUCP (Cathy Summers) writes: >>Rob DeMillo >>> Pumping yourself up with hormones, and assuming the personna of someone >>> of the opposite gender does not give you the right to proclaim >>> "womanhood." (A little drug alteration never hurt anybody, eh?) >As Sunny stated, we are changing to the correct not opposite gender. From knowing several TS's over the last 15 years, this is indeed the correct interpretation of a sex change. In fact most TS's being helped by doctors must go through lengthy evaluations with the shrinks to make sure that this is reason for requesting the proceedures. I might also point out that the whole process takes several years, causes large amounts of pain over much of that time (physical type pain) and leads to extreme difficulty with insensitive assholes such as Rob Demillo's posting seems to portray. I appreaciated reading and seeing your posting Cathy. Good luck in your future. Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower
dnc@dartvax.UUCP (David Crespo) (09/30/85)
> ...explanation of transexuality and causes... > > > I've been taking estrogens on a monthly cycle for the last eighteen months. > > Yes, there are some days in the cycle when I don't feel as good as others, > > but I don't think that my mental capabilities are at all diminished during > > those periods. The estrogens have had the desired effect of starting the > > development of female secondary sex characteristics. Also, as I mentioned > > above, I find that I am more patient and empathic. Is this due to the > > estrogens or due to an easing of the tensions in my life? I'm not sure. > > > > Now that I accept what and who I am and the consequences of my decision, > > I am definitely happier. I no longer feel like two people or try to hide > > part of my feelings or history in another "person". With the exception of > > this audience, I also do not broadcast the fact that I was a male. While > > there are still some parts of my body that I dislike, I now know that > > it is only a matter of time before I'll be complete. > > > > It is in response to her statement that she is trying to "learn something" > > that prompted me to contribute. I hope that this article helped those of > > you who wanted to learn more about transsexualism through the feelings and > > thoughts of another transsexual. > > > > Cathy Summers ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!cfs > > I don't mean to discourage Sunny from posting, but I'll tell you > one thing: Cathy's posting was so non-judgemental and enlightening > that it gave me a very good insight into the internal soul-searching > of someone endowed with mismatching gender and personal identities. > > I read Sunny's postings regularly, to try to get some insight > on gender roles and societal expectations, but I am often > dismayed at the level of bitterness (perhaps it is responding > to the, undoubtedly, huge amount of hate mail sent to her) > in her postings. I hope Cathy's offering will foster interest > in the subject that will allow more netters to contribute > in a productive way. > > ||||||| > || || > [ O-O ] Todd Jones > \ ^ / {decvax,akgua}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!todd > | ~ | > |___| SCI Systems Inc. doesn't necessarily agree with Todd. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** perchance, concerning both "sunny's" and Cathy's original nettings, does anyone have a way of sending them to me?? I can't get to the parent articles from where I sit, but I think they must have been spectacular contributions. dnc @ dartmouth