dyer@vaxuum.DEC (This did not happen to/Pablo Picasso) (08/14/85)
Innate Sexual Differences_______________________________________________________ > The fact is, that only those who have experienced both sets of hormones can > reasonably make any valid observations about what differences between the > sexes are hormonally based. The experiences alone will not yield valid observations. There are many other variables to consider, and a good number of them are only experienced sub- jectively. On top of that, it's common (in this society, at least) to assume that something occurring subconsciously is based on biology. We have to be *very* careful before declaring *anything* biologically innate. You hear people say things like "it's human nature," and "that's what the male of the species wants." People behave a certain way, construct ideolo- gies a certain way, or design policies a certain way based on such notions. Where do these notions come from? Some from the subconscious: people mistaking cultural influences for biological ones. Some come from half-assed studies with poor controls and a million ignored variables, often concluding (incorrectly) that the (usually male) scientist's hypothesis (itself derived subconsciously from cultural influences) is 100% USDA Certified Eternal Scien- tific Truth. I don't wish to condemn Sunny's experiences as worthless, they are not. But I must point out that the experiences alone will not yield valid insights into innate sexual differences. <_Jym_> :::::::::::::::: Jym Dyer ::::' :: `:::: Dracut, Massachusetts ::' :: `:: :: :: :: DYER%VAXUUM.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA :: .::::. :: {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxuum!dyer ::..:' :: `:..:: ::::. :: .:::: Statements made in this article are my own; they might not :::::::::::::::: reflect the views of |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| Equipment Corporation.
sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (08/15/85)
> :::::::::::::::: Jym Dyer > > The fact is, that only those who have experienced both sets of hormones can > > reasonably make any valid observations about what differences between the > > sexes are hormonally based. > > The experiences alone will not yield valid observations. There are many > other variables to consider, and a good number of them are only experienced sub- > jectively. On top of that, it's common (in this society, at least) to assume > that something occurring subconsciously is based on biology. > I don't wish to condemn Sunny's experiences as worthless, they are not. > But I must point out that the experiences alone will not yield valid insights > into innate sexual differences. It's easy, Jym, to say without supporting evidence, "X is invalid". How about you take a more constructive approach and say: "Y is more valid than X". Then we might gain something. So, Jym, what could possibly give us all better observations of which factors in humans are dependent on hormones, and which are not, than the observations of humans who have experienced both male and female hormones? Sunny -- {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) (08/17/85)
In article <2644@sun.uucp> sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes: > >So, Jym, what could possibly give us all better observations of which factors >in humans are dependent on hormones, and which are not, than the observations >of humans who have experienced both male and female hormones? > Like wow!!! So all I have to do to have my opinion made completely valid as fact is start taking some female hormones? Then I'll be able to represent ALL men and ALL women. Like, fantastic. Wow, and if somebody tells me that they are still only my own experiences, I can just quote the above. Quick, Doc, gimme them birth control pills! I wanna know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Just like Sunny. Or maybe there is a whole lot more to being either a male or a female than whether one has the right hormones or genitilia for that definition. Nope, guess not, 'cause Sunny claims that she can do it. I mean, let's take her word for what it is like to be a well-adjusted male, or a well-adjusted female. She knows all, for she takes hormone pills/shots! Gimme a break! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ross M. Greenberg @ Time Inc, New York --------->{vax135 | ihnp4}!timeinc!greenber<--------- I highly doubt that Time Inc. would make me their spokesperson. ---
dyer@vaxuum.DEC (This did not happen to/Pablo Picasso) (08/19/85)
Re: Innate Sexual Differences___________________________________________________ > So, Jym, what could possibly give us all better observations of which factors > in humans are dependent on hormones, and which are not, than the observations > of humans who have experienced both male and female hormones? I already told you what. Said observations tempered with rigorous sci- entific controls. As far as I can tell, though, there are so many variables to be controlled that a valid scientific study would be terribly inhumane. I said that your observations, alone, were not valid (i.e., not accept- able as scientific knowledge). I did not say that they were not valuable. I recognize that science cannot discover everything. > I've seen too many articles here rejecting . . . my ability to make observa- > tions unclouded by subjective factors, to believe that my viewpoint can be > accepted as objective. If my article is one of the ones you refer to, you're taking it much too personally. It has nothing to do with you, personally; it has nothing to do with your being a transsexual; and it has nothing to do with a desire on my part to silence outspoken women (as somebody else implied). My article was not about you, or transsexuals, or outspoken women; it was about people in and out of the field of psychology who make "conclusions" based on flawed research. Recall my emphasis that most of these people were male and making sexist assumptions. <_Jym_> :::::::::::::::: Jym Dyer ::::' :: `:::: Dracut, Massachusetts ::' :: `:: :: :: :: DYER%VAXUUM.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA :: .::::. :: {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxuum!dyer ::..:' :: `:..:: ::::. :: .:::: Statements made in this article are my own; they might not :::::::::::::::: reflect the views of |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| Equipment Corporation.
krossen@bbncca.ARPA (Ken Rossen) (08/20/85)
Ross Greenberg: > Like wow!!! So all I have to do to have my opinion made completely > valid as fact is start taking some female hormones? Then I'll be able > to represent ALL men and ALL women. Like, fantastic. Wow, and if > somebody tells me that they are still only my own experiences, I can > just quote the above. I have NEVER seen Sunny claim to represent either ALL men or ALL women, or even ALL transsexuals. I can't BELIEVE the number of people who are trying to discredit her observations by suggesting that she claims to "know it all." Ross's attack is one of the nastiest yet. Reread what Sunny wrote, and watch my emphasis ... >> what could possibly give us all better OBSERVATIONS of WHICH FACTORS >> in humans ARE DEPENDENT ON HORMONES, and which are not, than the >> observations of humans who have experienced both male and female >> hormones? OBSERVATIONS, not conclusions! ... And about HORMONE-DEPENDENT FACTORS, not what ALL men and ALL women are like! > maybe there is a whole lot more to being either a male or a female > than whether one has the right hormones or genitilia for that > definition. Nope, guess not, 'cause Sunny claims that she can do it. > I mean, let's take her word for what it is like to be a well-adjusted > male, or a well-adjusted female. She knows all, for she takes hormone > pills/shots! Gimme a break! DAMN IT! Sunny claims no such thing! She entered a discussion with a point of view on HORMONAL DIFFERENCES, a discussion upon which she has a unique perspective. Sunny has recently expressed a great deal of exasperation over people's attempts, not just to argue with her viewpoint, but to totally deny she has a viewpoint at all. I have sent her mail in an attempt to let her know that there are a number of us who want to listen to her, and not to let those trying to drown her out with their shouting drive her off the net. But the tactics have become so low. The prevailing method is typified here in Ross's article: put words in her mouth and then attack her for those words. I really think Sunny deserves an apology. Even those who don't agree with what she has to say (i don't always ...) should realize that this is a cheap tactic. Why do people do this? Well, I can't come up with a better explanation than Sunny's: extreme xenophobia. What a shame that it's still so rampant. As much as I'd like to hear Sunny's viewpoint, I doubt I could endure the dirty tricks people are playing on her. She's already made her farewell, and I can't say that I blame her. It's a great loss for this forum, because we probably won't get a transsexual viewpoint from somebody else, for the reasons Sunny has given. What? You say we don't need a transsexual viewpoint? What the hell do we want to hear from THOSE people? Yup, I guess Sunny was right. Xenophobia at its ugliest. What a shame ... -- Ken Rossen ...!{decvax,ihnp4,ima,linus,harvard}!bbncca!krossen ... or ... krossen@bbnccp.ARPA
dyer@vaxuum.DEC (This did not happen to/Pablo Picasso) (09/25/85)
Re: Innate Sexual Differences____________________________________ This is a long article, but I hope that doesn't turn too many people off. The issues are important, and I've made every effort to provide intelligent discussion about them. The discussion of innate sexual differences was going on about a month ago, with Sunny Kirsten and myself as the main par- ticipants. Sunny has since left net.women (I believe), and I went on vacation. Perspective First things first; I'll tell you where I'm coming ~~~~~~~~~~~ from. I major in social psychology, with particular emphasis on what is known as "feminist social psychology." This perspective is more holistically aware than the traditional socio- logical perspectives, it emphasizes the so-called "feminine" human traits as much as it does the so-called "masculine" ones, and it takes into account such issues as control and power. This perspective emphasizes the social, but it does not ignore the biological. A critical analysis of other perspectives which *do* emphasize the biological reveals that most theories that attribute traits to biology have no visible means of support. Most of you are probably already aware that such perspectives have traditionally used arguments to purport the biological inferiority of women. Use of the Scientific Method Part of this perspective's holistic ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ awareness is a recognition of the possibility that biases can enter and have entered into the scien- tific process. One specific focus is the existence of sexist bias in psychological and sociological research. Scientific knowledge is obtained when the scientific meth- od is used. There are several steps to the the scientific method, but there are four "main" ones: The first is *observation*, see- ing (or hearing, or feeling, or whatever) something occur, most likely in some sort of pattern. The second is formulations of a *hypothesis*, a possible explanation of the observations. Third is *experimentation*, testing to see if the hypothesis holds true. The final step is to construct a *theory* from the results of the experimentation. Bias can enter in every one of these steps, es- pecially in psychological and sociological research. The source of my disagreement with Sunny's articles is that the claims they make are not supported by science. More spe- cifically, they suffer from the following: (1) she has not gone through the entire scientific method, just the first two steps (observation and hypothesis); (2) these two steps are the most subjective steps in the method, where bias is most likely to enter into things; and (3) in a number of instances, the hypotheses are incorrect according to knowledge that has already been established as scientific theory. Hemispheres and Hormones Sunny outlined some information about ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ the brain's two hemispheres: "[L]ogical and mathematical and the spatial perceptive abilities are active primarily in the left hemisphere . . . emotional and intuitive and artistic abilities are active primarily in the right hemispheres . . ." The traits associated with the left hemisphere are consid- ered masculine and those with the right are considered feminine in our culture. Sunny tells us that men are more adept at the left-brain capabilities and women are more adept at the right-brain capabili- ties. This is not correct: science has found no correlation be- tween sex and brain hemisphere dominance. The only brain hemisphere difference with regard to sex that I know of is this observation: in our culture, women are more adept at integrating the effects of both hemispheres than men are. It is not at all clear (it almost never is in these matters) whether this is a biological or a culture condition. She continues: >>> . . . from the medical literature I have studied . . . and >>> from my own experiences with the sex hormones, . . . the male >>> hormones promote left-brain activity and aggressiveness and >>> competitiveness, while the female hormones promote right- >>> brain activity and passivity and cooperativeness. I'd like to see some references for this, because I've never seen a study that has said any such thing. Our culture may connect emotional and intuitive (right-brain) traits with passive and co- operative (purportedly female hormone-induced) traits and call them "feminine," but other cultures do not; and as far as I know, our body does not either. Brain hemisphere dominance has nothing to do with hormones. (I should mention that there is a very wide variation of the definition of "feminine" and "masculine" among and within cul- tures, including definitions that are the exact opposites of our culture's definitions. Psychologists have found it useful to con- sider these gender-defined-traits as constellations of traits that *all* humans have the potential to posess or experience. In fact, people who have access to all of these traits enjoy better mental health than any other group of people!) >>> . . . what I have observed about myself, is a lessening of >>> [aggressive] behavior, a lessening of preoccupation with mat- >>> ters sexual, and an increase in emotionality and sensuality. >>> >> . . . is it possible that there is some placebo effect here? >> Did you have any expectations, conscious or unconscious, of >> the effects that hormone changes would have on your thought >> patterns? Is it possible that you have preconceived ideas >> about how women think, and unconsciously altered your thought >> patterns to meet your expectations when you started to become >> a woman? >> > My only expectations were of physical changes to my body, i.e. > the reason for taking them was related to my transition from > male to female body characteristics. My observations of > mental changes were unexpected . . . This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that such observations are no substitute for experiments where varia- bles are controlled. Sunny can only account for what she's been conscious of; she cannot know what has happened unconsciously. This is where we have myriad variables that have not been (and perhaps cannot be) accounted for. >>> In Other Words, the prime shift has been from left-brain/ >>> right-handed/logical/[aggressive] dominance, to right-brain/ >>> left-handed/emotional/passive dominance in my brain activity. Perhaps it has, but since your observations have not been subject to controls, there is no basis for concluding that this shift has been the result of the hormones alone. >>> I believe you will find that these are precisely the differ- >>> ences observed between the stereotypical "male" and "female" >>> of the species . . . Not of the species. *Of*this*culture!* I cannot stress this point enough. >>> The behavioral patterns brought about by testosterone influ- >>> ence, which tend to get beyond conscious control, tend to be >>> active/[aggressive] behavior patterns, often leading to viol- >>> ence (or other physical [aggression] (e.g. rape)) and harmful >>> release of emotions (anger). First we have to define aggression, and I'll use the def- inition that most psychologists and sociologists use: Aggression: overt physical behavior with intent to harm. There is no scientific evidence that support the claim that testosterone promotes aggressive behavior. What the evidence shows is that testosterone promotes *active* behavior; if you pre- fer, you could think of it as promoting overt physical behavior, but the hormone has nothing to do with the "intent to harm" part. Indeed, "intent to harm" is a complex behavior that could hardly be caused by hormones. Competitiveness, passivity, and cooperat- iveness are also behaviors which are too complex to attribute to hormones. (By the way, one will occasionally see an article in this newsgroup that suggests an inherent link between sex and violence. Such suggestions are obviously the result of a confusion between activeness (is that a word?) and aggressiveness.) Another effect that Sunny reports has to do with, as she puts it, "preoccupation with matters sexual." It is a common be- lief in our culture that men are inherently more interested in sex than women; even though surveys show that this is simply not true. (And if it's not true in a culture that insists it *is* true, the grounds for believing that it's true are very shaky indeed!) Again, a look at the scientific evidence is enlightening: testosterone increases the sex drive of men; estrogen and progest- erone increase the sex drive of women. Reaching Conclusions I've said before that I don't think Sunny's ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ observations are worthless. They are, how- ever, only observations, not valid scientific theory. Unfortu- nately, Sunny extrapolates things from her hypotheses: >>> It is no accident, after observing the discussion in net.women >>> about rape, that so many men can relate to the concept of: "I >>> raped her because she asked for it by being dressed that way" >>> or "I find the defendant guilty of rape because of her provoc- >>> ation. The reason why so many men believe this way, is be- >>> cause they have first-hand knowledge of their inability to >>> control their own sexual impulses and their own violent ex- >>> pression of their need to dominate, to [aggress], as a result >>> of testosterone taking over, and overpowering their ability to >>> think rationally. I don't recall "many men" "relating" to that concept in this newsgroup, but let's say (for the sake of the argument) that they did. Even so, Sunny's explanation why (i.e., testosterone takeover) is perhaps the least feasible explanation. First, it is based on her (scientifically unverified) observations. Second, it neglects the fact that humans, the most complex species on the planet, are the *least* effected by hormones. Finally, if it were true, one would expect to find it to be true for every culture on the planet, and it is not. >>> The reason that rape is a men's issue, not a women's issue, >>> and the reason that only men can stop rape, is that only men >>> are under the influence of testosterone. I want very much to end rape, so I take very strong excep- tion to this statement. Studies of rapists who have been convic- ted and incarcerated (a population that is probably not represent- ative of all rapists, but for now, it's the best we can do) reveal that a desire to dominate is what motivates rapists. Testosterone has *not* been shown to cause such a desire. A more likely source of this desire is our culture's in- sistence that men be powerful and our culture's accompanying in- sistence that the "masculine" traits are most worthy. It has been shown again and again that demonstration and encouragement of dom- ination will yield a net gain in dominating behavior. To concentrate our rape-prevention efforts on testosterone - which, again, has *not* been shown to motivate rapists - would be barking up the wrong tree, and rape prevention has waited long enough (thanks to years of silence on the issue) to waste time on the wrong tree. (A few years back, the media picked up on a controversial subject: the experimental use of chemical castration - i.e., re- duction of testosterone levels - for habitual rapists. You've probably heard about this. What you probably haven't heard - ap- parently because it "wasn't controversial enough" to "merit" the media's attention - are the experiment's results: it failed.) > . . . a direct correlation between excess testosterone levels > and habitual rapists exists . . . I have contacted several rape crisis centers, mental health clinics (treating habitual rape offenders), and checked my local library, but I have found nothing to support this claim. Again, for the sake of the argument, let's say this is true. Even so, it would be no indication that excess testosterone causes rape. The direct correlation between ice cream sales and the occurring rapes (most rapes happen in the summer) does not indicate that ice cream causes rape. It might be possible that the higher activity levels that testosterone does provide could contribute to rapists acting out their desires to dominate (I'm hypothesizing here, if you haven't guessed). On the other hand, excess testosterone levels could encourage others to build a house or something. > . . . many men can reach the point of almost crying but can't > seem to quite make it over some unknown threshold. Under estro- > gen that threshold is breached . . . My source for this is obscure (I think it was an issue of _Psychology_Today_, way back when I still read it), but a study of men who admit to crying went something like this: These men could remember this "threshold," but found that that they could cross it when it became culturally "okay" for them to cry (either because of changing values (thanks to the Women's Movement) or because they were in a social situation (such as an encounter group) that did not discourage crying). I presume that there is no correla- tion between social contexts like these and the level of estrogen in men's bodies. Let's Be Careful Out There The overall problem here seems to be ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ an enthuiasm for attributing certain things to biology instead of society. This is a very common act- ion, and I can think of four reasons why it's very common: (1) _A_desire_to_say_something_meaningful_. When you say that something is biological, you're saying that it's innate. You are, in fact, saying something about Human Nature. Somehow it seems more exciting to have discovered something universal among the species than to have discovered something that is only rele- vant until (for example) one's culture changes its ways. (2) _The_murkiness_of_the_subconscious_. The effects of culture often manifest themselves subconsciously. Thus, they seem to come from nowhere - or, more accurately, they seem to come from within. (3) _Support_of_prejudices_. Prejudices, especially wrong ones, are inevitably supported by shaky rationalizations. If one can convince oneself (and others) that one's prejudices are based on biology (inherent and unchanging) instead of society (artifici- al and constantly changing), one can feel more secure about them. (4) _Ethnocentricity_. Cultural relativity is often ig- nored, and one often assumes that a behavior or trend is species- wide when it is actually culture-wide. My advice is to be especially leery of claims that certain things are biologically innate. Again, such claims have traditi- onally be used to support sexism against women. In Sunny's case, they have been used to support sexism against men. <_Jym_> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::' :: `:::: Jym Dyer ::::' :: `:::: ::' :: `:: Dracut, Massachusetts ::' :: `:: :: :: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: :: :: .::::. :: DYER%VAXUUM.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA :: .::::. :: ::..:' :: `:..:: {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax} ::..:' :: `:..:: ::::. :: .:::: decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxuum!dyer ::::' :: `:::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
sunny@l5.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) (10/04/85)
The Soul is Androgynous. Only the incarnations of that Soul into a
physical body "engender" a specific "sex". It is common for a Soul in it's
many incarnations to have spent various "lifetimes" in the bodies of both
sexes. It is no wonder that in various of these incarnations that the Soul
may remember the Karmic problems of previous incarnations, or specifically
choose as the Karmic lesson of a specific "life", to incarnate in such a
manner that the sex of the physical body is at odds with the "gender" of
the imperfected soul... that is to say, that only a perfected Soul is truly
Androgynous, and thus in each of our incarnations we are working from some
starting point of the gender of the imperfect Soul toward the perfection of
Androgyny, and that in the process of many incarnations we will have to learn
the lessons of each "Sex".
The "innate" sexual differences between "Men" and "Women" are merely
imperfections to be overcome through spiritual growth. But then, so is every
other aspect of life in the physical plane. All the answers are to be found
within yourself. And all the answers are the same... the perfection of the
Soul's ability to love.
If more people could see this simple truth, and be accepting of Androgyny,
we'd all progress more rapidly. It is only our collective failures to be
loving of our brethren which causes "society" to force each person to live
the gender role IT associates with each of the sexes. Assumption that sex
and gender are paired (male-masculine) and (female-feminine) is our first
mistake. If we could but assign four bits to this spectrum:
Male (Yes/No)
Female (Yes/No)
Masculine (Yes/No)
Feminine (Yes/No)
I would have always had to answer Yes to both Masculine and Feminine, and since
my hormonally assisted growth preceeding TransSexual surgery, I can answer Yes
to Female (Secondary sexual characteristics) and Yes to Male (Primary (Genital))
The next step is to realize that none of these is binary, but is a grey-scale
continuum.
Ultimately, Androgyny of the Soul is the Goal. Sex of the body is irrelevant,
except when it comes to sexual intercourse. Gender of the Soul is relevant to
(and *usually* matched with body sex) the possible exchanges of energy between
two people, as in Tantrik Yoga, given the polarities of energy in the various
chakras are opposite for men and women. Here there is a strong favoring of
heterosexual (to be precise, hetero-spiritual-gender) pairings to achieve the
maximum effect.
As a "woman-hearted-man" (as the ancients or primitives would call me), my
genitals may yet be male, but my spirit is very feminine, and is ruled by many
feminine planets in my natal chart. My Sun Sign is Cancer, the Moon, feminine,
and being ruled by the planet which traverses the sky most frequently, I'm not
only very emotional and subject to the lunar cycle of 28.3 days, but my ruling
planet "crosses" the others more frequently than any other, so it only takes
the traversing of a short period of time for me to transition from harmony to
discord with each of the various other signs.
Without digressing too far from the subject of "innate sexual differences", or
getting too deeply into the spiritual aspects of our, and especially *my*
incarnation this time around, I'd like to make the general point that, the
biggest failing in the world today is to focus too much on the scientific and
rational and logical analysis of the observable aspects of the physical plane,
and to spend too little effort in being aware of, feeling, the subconscious,
the life force, the spiritual which truly *is* the universe, rather than the
partial manifestation of it known as "the real world", observable by our
first 5 senses and by scientific instruments designed to augment them. Feel
with your heart, rather than think with your mind. Oh, I know it's very
threatening to let go of the safety and security of *thinking* you've got all
the answers because you can rationalize your way around the physical plane,
but you can't really start to learn much until you start feeling your spirit,
and it's oneness with far more than you can ever "scientifically prove".
Sunny
--
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!l5!sunny (Copyright 1985 by Ms. Sunny Kirsten)