tim@unisoft.UUCP (Tim Bessie) (10/03/85)
In article <32@ubc-cs.UUCP> andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes: > I find this amazing, though not necessarily bad. Here in 1985, >on a newsgroup devoted to women's issues, women are still talking >about pampering themselves, wearing traditionally women's things, >and being irrationally emotional as the things which make them feel >feminine. I find it amazing, too. You have to acknowledge, though, that only 2 women have responded to the query so far. Hardly a good sample. Maybe the ones with very different views don't want to publicly state them, or think it unnecessary or silly...? > This makes me frustrated. I would love to do just these kinds >of things too, and to feel as good about it as you women do. (Yes, >including wearing skirts.) But when I do anything like this, I feel >more or less of a sense of discomfort -- in part because of my >upbringing, but in part because even the women of today think of >these things as very feminine, and don't understand when I do them. > I also can't feel good about doing traditionally masculine >things, because of the bad feelings I associate with "playing the >role". About the only time I feel really masculine in a positive way >is when I look at myself in the mirror after a shower; Really? So do I! Or a bath (I like baths better. Baths appeal to both masculine AND feminine sides (if there are such things) in me). Yet, I wouldn't say 'masculine' to mean anybody else's notion of what that word means. As far as I'm concerned, when I look at myself in the mirror, being please with my MALE form -- as a woman would and should be please with her FEMALE form -- is the feeling of masculinity or femininity. It doesn't have to fit any classic shape. It just says, "I am a man, and this is what I look like, and I like it." It doesn't preclude me from wanting to then go put on a light cotten robe, light a candel, dab some sweet-smelling oil upon my various parts (-:), etc. and recline on a soft bed, under the stars, with soft music... all just by myself, for myself. That feeling of LUXURIOUSNESS, maybe, of *quiet power* within onesself... that is common to feeling comfortable with whatever sex you are. That's what I think of when I think of masculinity/femininity. It also has to do with a kind of oneness with nature and your immediate world. >and the only >time I feel really heterosexual (not the same thing) in a positive >way is when my body responds to a sexy woman. > Am I alone, or do other men feel like this too? I tell myself >that this is all I really need, but society has a big influence when >it says there's more to masculinity than this. If I stuck to what society said masculinity was, I'd be very unhappy. I've allowed myself to conform a little, though. I used to wear very loose cloths... drawstring pants, peasant shirts, etc. all in very striking/pastel colors/designs... things usually considered feminine... I'd always thought it was unfair that women are allowed, in our society, to dress so nicely, with such a wide range of color and pattern, while men are pretty limited. Even if you go with reletively recent historic costume, men's clothes haven't changed to much. I also had quite long and curly hair. The women at work all said how lovely it was, but it seemed like people I met didn't take me too seriously. So I got a haircut (several, actually... wasn't satisfied the first few times), bought some regular ol' jeans, long-sleeve shirts (all cotton, when I could find 'em), belt, etc. Not very comfortable at first, but I'm getting used to it. AND, people respond to me more positively, and women I know say how much more handsome I look (they can see my face now), etc. What makes me feel masculine, though, hasn't changed at all. I still feel inside the same way. The packaging has changed a little, is all, and I'm pretty happy with it. - Tim --- "Time is for dragonflies and angels. The former live too little and the latter live too long." --------------------------------------------------------------- ---> Tim Bessie ----- {ucbvax,dual}!unisoft!tim ---> Unisoft Systems; 739 Allston Way; Berkeley, CA 94710 ---> (415) 644-1230 TWX II 910 366-2145
tll@sabre.UUCP (Trudy Leonhard) (10/07/85)
I wanted to reply to "when do you feel most feminine/masculine" etc. I feel feminine when... I'm in the woods and I have to go to the bathroom... I see little boys that are holy terrors ( aggressive) and relatively pacifist little girls... I see older boys who fight with fists and their female peers fight with nails,teeth, pull hair - anything is fair.... I look in the mirror... A pregnant woman walks by... I finally find a public restroom and there is no toilet paper and they use air dryers for your hands... I hold a man in my arms and feel his hard body against my soft one... I feel like I need to cry so I do... I challenge a male friend to an arm wrestling match and lose (some people never learn)... When a male friend opens up to me and I know he couldn't do that if I was male... I can give my mom a big hug and nobody can lift up their eyebrow and go hmmm, obviously an outward manisfestation of the oedipus complex...:-) There are few other times I "feel" feminine. I'm Trudy and it's much more important for me to "feel" most like Trudy. It's not too surprising that women state they feel most feminine when they do the things that they've been taught all their lives are what make up femininity. Being a product of this society, I'M certainly not excluded from such feelings. What bothers me is when my femininity is foisted upon me - especially when it's sombody else's definition of what is feminine. Trudy