dyer@tau.DEC (09/04/85)
Re: "Guys" is to "<?>" as ...___________________________________________________
Female Term Male Term
~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
woman man
girl boy
<?> guy
The problem is that there *isn't* another word that would fit here. One
uses either "girl" or "woman."
It is, unfortunately, customary in our culture to use "girl." The valid
objection to this is that it perpetuates that "guy-aged females" are lesser be-
ings than "guy-aged males." What makes this particularly ridiculous is the fact
that women mature earlier than men do!
I recommend "woman," myself. It was awkward at first, since "girl" is
the customary term, but I got used to it quickly. Now I cringe when I hear
somebody say "girl!"
As usual, the best guide to use is the Golden Rule. If you're a "guy-
aged male," you'd most likely prefer to be referred to as a "man," not as a
"boy." When you take that into consideration, the choice between "girl" and
"woman" is an easy one.
<_Jym_>
P.S.: Don't be fooled into thinking that "gal" is a good match for "guy."
"Gal" is just another way of saying "girl," so it is just as unacceptable.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:: Jym Dyer :: {allegra|decvax|ihnp4}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxuum!dyer ::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) (09/05/85)
> From: dyer@tau.DEC > As usual, the best guide to use is the Golden Rule. If you're a "guy- > aged male," you'd most likely prefer to be referred to as a "man," not as a > "boy." When you take that into consideration, the choice between "girl" and > "woman" is an easy one. Well, I don't mind being called a "boy", and no reasonable girl I have met objects to being called a "girl". In my opinion, anyone who objects to being called a boy or a girl is pretty inane. (This is as opposed to these words being used as a form of address: "Girl, fetch me a cup of coffee" is pretty objectionable, but so is "Woman, fetch me a cup of coffee".) -Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)
jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (09/06/85)
> P.S.: Don't be fooled into thinking that "gal" is a good match for "guy." > "Gal" is just another way of saying "girl," so it is just as unacceptable. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :: Jym Dyer :: {allegra|decvax|ihnp4}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-vaxuum!dyer :: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I disagree. It's true that "gal" is derived from "girl", but I don't think that the average person makes this connection when using or hearing the word. It's like saying that the word "sinister" favors discrimination against left-handed people. The word "girl" calls up a mental image of an immature person who doesn't deserve the respect normally given to adults. The word "gal" doesn't do this (at least, not for me). Please remember that etymology is not the same as meaning. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (09/06/85)
> > From: dyer@tau.DEC > > > As usual, the best guide to use is the Golden Rule. If you're a "guy- > > aged male," you'd most likely prefer to be referred to as a "man," not as a > > "boy." When you take that into consideration, the choice between "girl" and > > "woman" is an easy one. > > Well, I don't mind being called a "boy", and no reasonable girl I have > met objects to being called a "girl". In my opinion, anyone who objects > to being called a boy or a girl is pretty inane. I would suspect that if you were black and over 21 you would seriously resent being called "boy". Just such locution was used to keep blacks "in their place" and many women feel that calling adult women "girls" achieves the same effect. It implies that we are not mature adult humans. -- jcpatilla "At night, the ice weasels come."
moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison ) (09/09/85)
In article <5209@mit-eddie.UUCP> nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) writes: > >Well, I don't mind being called a "boy", and no reasonable girl I have >met objects to being called a "girl". In my opinion, anyone who objects >to being called a boy or a girl is pretty inane. > Oh, PLEASE. Let's not have this discussion AGAIN. The fact is that many women on the net DO object to being called a "girl". Moira Mallison tektronix!moiram
andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) (09/16/85)
In article <305@decwrl.UUCP> dyer@tau.DEC writes: > The problem is that there *isn't* another word that would fit here. One >uses either "girl" or "woman." >P.S.: Don't be fooled into thinking that "gal" is a good match for "guy." >"Gal" is just another way of saying "girl," so it is just as unacceptable. What we seem to need is a word with similar origins as "guy": i.e. a short, one-syllable, slightly old-fashioned woman's name. Any suggestions? A good one-syllable female name I can think of offhand is "Ann(e)", though it isn't particularly old-fashioned. However "guys and anns" has a nice ring to it. Maybe "Ruth"? "Beth"? "Eve" (nice religious overtones) ? --Jamie. ...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews (p.s. no offense intended to all anns, ruths, beths and eves in the audience)
jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (09/19/85)
> What we seem to need is a word with similar origins as "guy": i.e. a > short, one-syllable, slightly old-fashioned woman's name. "Guy" didn't always mean a casual term for 'man'. It comes originally from the British custom of making dummies ("guys") to use in hanging Guy Fawkes in effigy on Guy Fawkes Day. Boys raised money for fireworks and such by putting their "guys" out on street corners and soliciting donations ("penny for the guy?"). (If I'm wrong on the details here, someone with British experience please come to my rescue) To refer to someone as a guy was somehwat derogatory at one time. I recall seeing a usage in "Little Women", in the scene where Meg is staying with wealthy friends who dress her all up for a party. An older gentleman sees her and comments that "now they've made an awful guy of her". So it wasn't necessarily sex-specific in that case. I'd be interested in other references folks are familiar with. -- jcpatilla "At night, the ice weasels come."
maples@uiucuxc.Uiuc.ARPA (09/19/85)
Speaking as a 24 year old 'female', I too object to being called a 'girl'. On the other hand, 'woman' sounds like I'm a 45 year old woman. But since no alternative exits, I guess I'll have to get used to it. Does anyone object to being called a lady? (I kind of like that). Another question: When does one feel like he/she should be called man/woman?
spp@ucbvax.ARPA (Stephen P Pope) (09/20/85)
I on occasion use the word "guys" when addressing a group
of either, or mixed, sex and nobody has ever taken offense.
I further propose that "they" and "their" are acceptable,
although somewhat illiterate sounding, neuter forms for
he/she and his/her.
-steve
P.S. If anybody agrees or disagrees I'd like to hear from them.jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (09/24/85)
> > Does anyone object to being called a lady? (I kind of like > that). I've always preferred "Jeff". -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) "Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent..." {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
dnc@dartvax.UUCP (David Crespo) (09/29/85)
> > What we seem to need is a word with similar origins as "guy": i.e. a > > short, one-syllable, slightly old-fashioned woman's name. > > "Guy" didn't always mean a casual term for 'man'. It comes originally > from the British custom of making dummies ("guys") to use in hanging Guy > Fawkes in effigy on Guy Fawkes Day. Boys raised money for fireworks and such > by putting their "guys" out on street corners and soliciting donations > ("penny for the guy?"). (If I'm wrong on the details here, someone with British > experience please come to my rescue) To refer to someone as a guy was somehwat > derogatory at one time. I recall seeing a usage in "Little Women", in the > scene where Meg is staying with wealthy friends who dress her all up for a > party. An older gentleman sees her and comments that "now they've made an > awful guy of her". So it wasn't necessarily sex-specific in that case. I'd > be interested in other references folks are familiar with. > > -- > jcpatilla > > "At night, the ice weasels come." *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** .... ...which reminds me, now that we are on the subject of word-origins, anyone out there up on the origin of erotic terms, such as... well I leave that up to you. Can anyone say if there is a sexist bias in them? As Wittgenstein said: meaning is usage (roughly, as I misquote the great philosopher). I very much enjoyed jcp's derivation of 'guy', though I think it also owes a lot to being similar to 'girl' and 'gal' (alliteratively, n'est-ce-pas?). calling a man(boy) a girl can be very insulting, so I would guess (yes) that guy would do the same of a ...(ahem) she-creature (if you will). But, in certain contexts THIS IS NOT SO. Note that in the "Little Women" quote, the usage depended somewhat on "guys" being "guys". the remark might also have been made hurtfully. Lastly: "And you knew who you were then, Girls were girls and Men were Men! (CAPS THE EDITOR'S!) keep the peace...dnc Mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again..."
colonel@sunybcs.UUCP (Col. G. L. Sicherman) (10/10/85)
> In article <305@decwrl.UUCP> dyer@tau.DEC writes: > > The problem is that there *isn't* another word that would fit here. One > >uses either "girl" or "woman." > >P.S.: Don't be fooled into thinking that "gal" is a good match for "guy." > >"Gal" is just another way of saying "girl," so it is just as unacceptable. > > What we seem to need is a word with similar origins as "guy": i.e. a > short, one-syllable, slightly old-fashioned woman's name. > Any suggestions? This strikes me as being very sexist! Why not use a single bizarre word for both sexes, like "goons"? If I remember right, Segar's goons came in (at least) two sexes.
dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi) (10/16/85)
I may be suggesting something that somebody's already suggested before. Anyway, my idea is based on something overheard at a restaurant. Two women were sitting at the table next to mine, and a waitress came up to them and asked them "Are you guys ready to order yet?" My suggestion: guys -- David Canzi There are too many thick books about thin subjects.
crs@lanl.ARPA (10/18/85)
> I may be suggesting something that somebody's already suggested before. > Anyway, my idea is based on something overheard at a restaurant. > Two women were sitting at the table next to mine, and a waitress came > up to them and asked them "Are you guys ready to order yet?" > > My suggestion: guys I agree. I frequently call my daughters "guys" or "guy" as appropriate. No, I *didn't* want sons; I wanted daughters. I think "guy" or "guys" *is* an appropriate generic or can be made one. . . . > There are too many thick books about thin subjects. I think much of the incessant debate over whether "." is an acceptable generic or whether "." carries nasty male overtones, etc. ad nauseum fits nicely into this category. -- All opinions are mine alone... Charlie Sorsby ...!{cmcl2,ihnp4,...}!lanl!crs crs@lanl.arpa