rance@cornell.UUCP (Rance Cleaveland) (09/23/85)
> > Speaking as a 24 year old 'female', I too object to being called a > 'girl'. On the other hand, 'woman' sounds like I'm a 45 year old > woman. But since no alternative exits, I guess I'll have to get used > to it. Does anyone object to being called a lady? (I kind of like > that). Another question: When does one feel like he/she should be > called man/woman? Maybe other people don't have this impression, but it seems to me that in society's eyes you switch from being a "guy/girl" to a "man/woman" when you get married. At least, I think that's the traditional usage. Regards, Rance Cleaveland
cheryl@lasspvax.UUCP (Cheryl Stewart) (09/25/85)
In article <685@cornell.UUCP> rance@cornell.UUCP (Rance Cleaveland) writes: >> >> Speaking as a 24 year old 'female', I too object to being called a >> 'girl'. On the other hand, 'woman' sounds like I'm a 45 year old >> woman. But since no alternative exits, I guess I'll have to get used >> to it. Does anyone object to being called a lady? (I kind of like >> that). Another question: When does one feel like he/she should be >> called man/woman? > >Maybe other people don't have this impression, but it seems to me that >in society's eyes you switch from being a "guy/girl" to a "man/woman" >when you get married. At least, I think that's the traditional usage. > Married, schmarried -- I say it's spinach: Eat enough spinach and you'll be a man. Eat a watermelon seed, and you'll be a woman. (That's really how it happens. Mommy ate a watermelon seed, then came baby Joey. That's what Daddy told me, and he's always right.) Look, when I left home for college, my younger sister was a knock-kneed, skinny flatchested fourteen year old GIRL. One time I came home, and realized that she had grown into a WOMAN. Breasts are generally a dead giveaway. If you are unsure of the morphology and location of these items on the feminine physique...well, my best of luck to you when you get married! P.S. The only time I was really offended by nomenclature was when a female college registrar (over forty -- can't trust 'em) referred to an award-winning valedectorian senior graduating from the engineering college at University of Illinois at Urbana as a "PRETTY LITTLE CO-ED" But then, this registrar was clearly a stupid old woman.
whitehur@tymix.UUCP (Pamela K. Whitehurst) (09/25/85)
In article <685@cornell.UUCP> rance@cornell.UUCP (Rance Cleaveland) writes: > >Maybe other people don't have this impression, but it seems to me that >in society's eyes you switch from being a "guy/girl" to a "man/woman" >when you get married. At least, I think that's the traditional usage. I reserve exclusive use of girl for females under the age of 12. Between 12 and 18 they may be girls or young women, or even young ladies. I very seldom refer to a female over the age of 18 with the word girl, married or not. The dictionary does define 'girl' as an unmarried young woman of marriageable age. It just doesn't explain how old a female is when she is no longer considered a 'young' woman. -- PKW hplabs!oliveb!tymix!whitehur
barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) (09/26/85)
First off, about "lady." One of my subscribers belongs to the Society for Creative Anachronism and sends me checks in envelopes addressed to "The Lady Lee Gold." I find this annoying. "Lady" generally seems to me to carry connotations of being put on a pedestal--and having to meet expectations of being ladylike. Some years back, I was helping out my parents-in-law who run a check cashing store. A woman who ran a business whose checks to her employees had bounced came in (after repeated calling) to pay off her bad checks plus our fee for the bounces. She tearfully asked why she had to pay off the bounce fee, and my mother-in-law told her because our bank had charged us a fee for each check WE deposited that bounced--and besides why should we carry her payroll interest-free? Indignantly she told my mother-in-law, "You're not a lady." "You're right," said my mother-in-law. "I'm a businesswoman!" As for changing from girl to woman: One old rule of thumb was that if you're no longer virgin, you're a woman. There's generally an assumption that a woman is the adult version of a girl (and presumably you shouldn't start having sex until you're mature enough to know what you're doing), which seems to fit this. I think your association of "woman" with 40ish may be derived from the department stores dress sections which carefully separate clothes into stylish and "women's." Then again it may be due to our culture's general cult of youth which leads us to feel that adulthood/maturity has something unfashionably dowdy about it, particularly for a woman. (It's long been remarked that old men are culturally sexy but old women aren't. Perhaps old men are asumed to be wealthy, and old women aren't.) --Lee Gold
stan@hou2f.UUCP (S.GLAZER) (09/26/85)
>When does one feel like he/she should be called man/women?
When you feel that the policemen/women look younger than you. :-)jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (09/27/85)
> > > > Another question: When does one feel like he/she should be > > called man/woman? > > Maybe other people don't have this impression, but it seems to me that > in society's eyes you switch from being a "guy/girl" to a "man/woman" > when you get married. At least, I think that's the traditional usage. > > Regards, > Rance Cleaveland This would be fine in a society where everyone got married when entering adulthood. Even in the "old days", there were people in our society who didn't have marriage as a goal, and a lower percentage of people get married now than, say, 50 years ago. I have a hard time believing that one who never married would never be considered an adult; would a 50 year old unmarried person typically be called a "boy" or a "girl"? I think, though, that a young person is more likely to be considered an adult if married; an 18 year old female is more likely to be called a "woman" if she is married. But this doesn't answer the original question, which asked when one feels that he or she should be called a "man" or a "woman". I think the questioner was asking for personal responses. It is true that society influences one's beliefs, but this doesn't mean that one must consult the Handbook of Approved Attitudes to figure out what one feels or should feel. I hope that Rance was not intentionally implying this. I only call someone a "boy" or a "girl" if the person is young and immature (in the strict sense of the word, not the common derogatory sense), I don't think the person would be insulted by it, and the situation is appropriate. For example, I might call a 16 year old female a "girl" in some circumstances, but if she were waiting on me in a restaurant I would call her a "woman"; the customer/server relationship demands respect. Personally, I don't remember any watershed date when suddenly I wanted to be called a "man" instead of a "boy". I'm not a member of any group that has been treated as non-adult by large segments of society, so it never became an issue for me. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) "Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent..." {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (10/01/85)
> > As for changing from girl to woman: One old rule of thumb was that if > you're no longer virgin, you're a woman. There's generally an assumption > that a woman is the adult version of a girl (and presumably you shouldn't > start having sex until you're mature enough to know what you're doing), which > seems to fit this. > --Lee Gold While it's true that one shouldn't have sex until one is mature enough to handle it, but it doesn't follow that having sex turns one into an adult. This "old rule of thumb" has been used on many high-school girls in the back seats of cars. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) "Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent..." {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
wjr@x.UUCP (Bill Richard) (10/10/85)
Note: This is STella Calvert, aka mrswjr, a guest on this account. In article <672@rtech.UUCP> jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) writes: >While it's true that one shouldn't have sex until one is mature enough to >handle it, but it doesn't follow that having sex turns one into an adult. >This "old rule of thumb" has been used on many high-school girls in the >back seats of cars. A female human being old enough to have sex IS a woman -- if she falls for this line, she is a STUPID woman. STella Calvert (guest on ...!decvax!frog!wjr) Every man and every woman is a star.
ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) (10/18/85)
> STella Calvert, aka mrswjr > > Jeff Lichtman > >While it's true that one shouldn't have sex until one is mature enough to > >handle it, but it doesn't follow that having sex turns one into an adult. > A female human being old enough to have sex IS a woman -- if she falls for > this line, she is a STUPID woman. I know Stella meant well, but I have to nitpick here, sorry: I'm not sure what she means by "old enough to have sex". There have been cases where 18-month-old female infants have been raped by their fathers. There are also lots of women who were verbally coerced into sex in their early teens, etc. I think the "sexually ready" definition is a little shaky. Ellen -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Who's been repeating all that hard stuff to you?" "I read it in a book," said Alice. - - - - - - - - - - - - - tektronix!reed!ellen
wjr@x.UUCP (Bill Richard) (10/23/85)
In article <2017@reed.UUCP> ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) writes: >> STella Calvert, aka mrswjr >> > Jeff Lichtman > >> >While it's true that one shouldn't have sex until one is mature enough to >> >handle it, but it doesn't follow that having sex turns one into an adult. >> A female human being old enough to have sex IS a woman -- if she falls for >> this line, she is a STUPID woman. > >I know Stella meant well, but I have to nitpick here, sorry: >I'm not sure what she means by "old enough to have sex". By old enough to have sex, I meant the biology works, the urges are in place. I was _old enough_ to have sex when I was thirteen. For reasons ranging from "age of consent" laws to the clap epidemic in my neighborhood I refrained till I was post-jailbait and met someone I trusted to avoid disease if possible, and treat it if it occurred. Jeff and I weren't talking about babyrape. But I say again, a woman who falls for manipulation of the sort Jeff mentioned, is stupid. And there is no way I or anyone else can protect the fool from her folly. By the way, I had a relative who attempted to molest me, starting when I was about four. Since he made me feel funny, I pissed on his lap every time he picked me up. Didn't take too long to re-educate him, either. Wish I'd told my mom, though -- she thought I had a bladder problem, when I had an uncle problem. STella Calvert Every man and every woman is a star. Guest on: ...!decvax!frog!wjr Life: Baltimore!AnnArbor!Smyrna!<LotsOfHitchhikingAndShortVisits> !SantaCruz!Berkeley!AnnArbor!Taxachussetts Future: ... (!L5!TheBelt!InterstellarSpace)