hankb@teklds.UUCP (Hank Buurman) (01/01/70)
In article <698@rtech.UUCP> jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) writes: >> Not to criticize, but I confess I'm a little lost in this discussion. I hardly >> ever think of my actions or feelings as being "masculine" or "feminine". Maybe >> I'm just wierd. >> Jeff Winslow > >I feel pretty much the same way, and that's why I haven't said anything on this >topic so far. I don't attribute any of my feelings to masculinity or femininity >because I'm not organized that way. I would even say that sex makes me feel >good but not masculine. > >Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) I really have to agree with you two. I've given a lot of thought to this discussion, and I'm really having difficulty identifying times when I feel "masculine" (or "feminine" for that matter). The only time I really feel my maleness, is in anticipation of sex, but before full erection, the feeling of "heaviness" in my genitals. At that time I am extremly aware of my physiological manhood, and, yes, it does make me feel masculine. Also, I have noticed in the postings by some of the ladies, that they feel feminine when undertaking some "traditionally" male activities, such as changing the oil on the car, household repairs, etc. I find this interesting, because it's a shared experience. I too feel good as a man, when I do these things. But I tend to think that it's more a feeling of competence, or well-being, than a masculine/feminine thing. A thought provoking discussion. Hank Buurman ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb
seb@mtgzz.UUCP (s.e.badian) (01/01/70)
> From mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (Damballah Wedo) [aka Marcel Simon] >> Sharon Badian[aka me]: >> The men are the only ones who can answer my question. You complain about the >> rules of masculinity, but where do they come from? >Don't generalize; *some*, *a few*, or whatever, complain. I didn't say all men, did I? You can therefore assume "some" men. If I had said "You all complain about the..." you might have something to go on, but really. And of course, I have to generalize! I can't name every man in the world and say "Well, this one feels this way, and that one feels some- thing totally different." I think the one's who have voiced complaints lately know that I am talking about them. They are the only ones who can answer my question since they feel that way. Now, if you don't feel that way, ignore the bloodly question! >> ..... Women are free to be more like men .... >So why do they complain so bitterly about it? A lot of women's writing >(not necessarily feminist or political) is about how lonely, competitive, >etc. it is to operate in this society. About how lousy a deal it is to reach >the top and have no one to share it with, etc. Of course, that is >men's fault. Never mind that we have known this all along, that we are >also stuck in the same loop. It's our fault. I don't ever recall hearing >a male say that if women were more like men, everything would be OK. >If women made that assumption, fought to make it reality and now find >that it was faulty, well, whose responsibility is that? Women do complain bitterly about HAVING to be more like men in many situations. The reality is that in business women and minorities have to follow the same rules that men follow. They really don't have much choice. Yes, they can fight the establishment, and many do. Things change slowly. But again I have to ask "If you, as a man, find the rules unfair, and know that other men feel the same way, why don't you try to change the rules?" Women complain that the rules are unfair and they try to change them (and not every women believes that men are at fault for the way the game is played, as you seem to be saying). But why after so many years of male dominination in business, are you complaining about something that men, as a group, could change if they wanted to? And don't ask me how! Groups of individuals have significant clout in our society. And considering the power, money and influence that men, as a group, have, it seems absurd to think that they can't change the rules under which they operate. It seems obvious to me that most men either like the current set of rules, are ambilivalent, or have given up trying. What I meant when I said "women are more free to be like men" (and you left off my parathetical statement where I said I couldn't think of a better way to put it - it's obvious that I will have to find a better way now) is that when a woman wants to wear pants, when a woman wants to climb mountains, when a woman wants to be a police officer, when a woman wants to run for office, she can. Historically these are male things, because women have not been allowed to do them. You want it put a different way? Women now feel free to persue their dreams. Un- fortunately, that doesn't relate to the rest of my article. Women now have the freedom (and freedom means they can choose which is not the same as having to follow the rules of business just to get ahead) to do masculine things, while men generally don't feel free to do feminine things (with the exception of Boy George :-)). >> So we're back to the question of "why can't men act like more like women?" >So that's the central question, hey? If women want to be more like men, then >men must want to be more like women. Well, I don't claim to speak for >anyone other than myself, but I enjoy being male, and I can't honestly >see any advantage in becoming "more like women." >I am comfortable in my own skin, and see no real reason to want to >become "more like women," and especially not because some woman says so. You have read this all wrong! And in the context of my article, I'm not sure how you could construe my question this way. When you take the question "why can't men act more like women" out of my article, sure, it sounds bad. But you can't take it out of context. Maybe I should take a survey and see how many people actually thought the question meant "Well, I sure wish men could be more like women. Why can't they??!!" instead of "Why don't men feel free to do feminine things in our society?" Though you personally may not have any need to do anything "feminine" there are many men who do have such a need. This need ranges from being "emotional" (crying for sadness or joy, for example) to wearing dresses and makeup. I wasn't saying that all men should try to be more like women. They should be who they want to be. And at times society's concept of masculinity gets in the way. So could we have some men who do feel trapped by masculinity express their thoughts on the subject! Sharon Badian ihnp4!mtgzz!seb
suki@reed.UUCP (Monica Nosek) (10/01/85)
In article <248@ssc-vax.UUCP> ginger@ssc-vax.UUCP (Ginger Grover) writes: >New question: what makes *you* FEEL most feminine or masculine, >however you define those terms? (I am NOT asking for logical >definitions! Logic gets in the way of reality [How's that >for "feminine" reasoning?]. :-) ) Taffeta, lace, and high heels with silk stockings. Conversely, jeans, bare feet, and his shirts. Chanel No. 5 or freshly clean skin. Or even the tang of mildly pungent skin, for that matter. Great-grandmother's jewelery--especially amethysts--worn to bed. Giggling for no reason at all but to giggle. You know--girl stuff :-) Monica
andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) (10/01/85)
Ginger Grover: >I'll start. Bubble-baths and slinkly lingerie make me feel >especially feminine.... >Also, wearing a full, long skirt that rustles and swishes at >the slightest movement.... >Laughing or crying for no earthly reason, but just because >that's the way I feel. In article <1944@reed.UUCP> suki@reed.UUCP (Monica Nosek) writes: >Taffeta, lace, and high heels with silk stockings.... >... Chanel No. 5 or >freshly clean skin.... > ... Great-grandmother's jewelery--especially >amethysts--worn to bed. Giggling for no reason at all but to >giggle. You know--girl stuff :-) I find this amazing, though not necessarily bad. Here in 1985, on a newsgroup devoted to women's issues, women are still talking about pampering themselves, wearing traditionally women's things, and being irrationally emotional as the things which make them feel feminine. This makes me frustrated. I would love to do just these kinds of things too, and to feel as good about it as you women do. (Yes, including wearing skirts.) But when I do anything like this, I feel more or less of a sense of discomfort -- in part because of my upbringing, but in part because even the women of today think of these things as very feminine, and don't understand when I do them. I also can't feel good about doing traditionally masculine things, because of the bad feelings I associate with "playing the role". About the only time I feel really masculine in a positive way is when I look at myself in the mirror after a shower; and the only time I feel really heterosexual (not the same thing) in a positive way is when my body responds to a sexy woman. Am I alone, or do other men feel like this too? I tell myself that this is all I really need, but society has a big influence when it says there's more to masculinity than this. --Jamie. ...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews "Autumn, to me the most congenial of seasons; the university, to me the most congenial of lives." -R.Davies
hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) (10/04/85)
Re Jamie Andrews' observations that men are constrained from doing traditionally feminine things like wearing skirts, wile the reverse is not true. This will only change when men and women are seen as being truly equal. As long as society sees the man's role as being more desirable, powerful, or what have you, any man who takes on what are seen as feminine ways and attributes will be denigrated. This will even be true by other women, since they are subject to the same societal norms as men. The answer may be to work for a truly equal society, and in the interim find a woman friend who is not hung up on the standard societal norms in this subject. Herman Silbiger ihnp4!homxb!hrs
jmps@ihuxn.UUCP (J. M. Sauer) (10/04/85)
Jamie's (ubc-cs!andrews) comments about society having a big
infuence on what is masculine or feminine is really true. He said
that the same things that women said made them feel feminine also
made him feel good but he didn't always feel comfortable. It is society
that labels these things masculine or feminine. Society does this in a
often times arbitrary manner just to allow its members to differentiate
more quickly between male and female. This is important to society.
In general, almost all the things that have been labelled
masculine, women can do openly in our society now. Wearing pants,
using the tools to fix things (qouting a response), racine cars, etc.. are open
to women and it is alright with society if they feel masculine. Often
times it will be said that a women may feel masculine but she never
forgets that she is a women and is not trying to be a man, therefore it
is accepted.
It is not alright in society for a male to do those things
that make him feel feminine even if he doesn't want to be a woman.
It is not allright to wear a dress or to be emotional.
Society is saying this is a weakness in a man ("A man wouldn't be
caught dead in a dress"). I think this comes from society being more
influenced by male values, but both men and women feel this way.
In summary, an individual should do whatever makes them feel good (as long
as it doesn't hurt others) whether or not society thinks this is
masculine or feminine. The only true masculine or feminine attribute
are those physical attributes of being male or female, everything else is
cultural including attraction to a MOTOS. I hope Jamie can become comfortable
with society's attitudes and that society eventually gives the same freedom
in this area to men that it allows women.edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (10/06/85)
In article <1201@ihuxn.UUCP> jmps@ihuxn.UUCP (J. M. Sauer) writes: > [...stuff I generally agree with about the asymmetrical nature of > sex-role switching -eh ...] >It is not allright [for men] to wear a dress or to be emotional. I can understand how any reasonable human being might not want to wear a dress. But I think that social norms about emotions define more the *kind* of emotion that can be expressed than emotion per se. Expressing anger, for instance, is considered masculine. Expressing affection (as opposed to lust) is considered feminine (in the US, anyway; funny thing is, in parts of Europe it's not unusual to see male buddies with their arms around each other and otherwise expressing affection for each other). Crying is most certainly considered feminine in this culture. Ambition (sort of a second-level emotion) is masculine. And so on. Men should be allowed to be affectionate or to cry, while women should be allowed to be angry or ambitious. And society actually seems to be moving in this direction. Slowly. >In summary, an individual should do whatever makes them feel good (as long >as it doesn't hurt others) whether or not society thinks this is >masculine or feminine. The only true masculine or feminine attribute >are those physical attributes of being male or female, everything else is >cultural including attraction to a MOTOS. I hope you mean ``what is attractive in a MOTOS''; I doubt that either heterosexuality or homosexuality are, at bottom, merely cultural phenomena. Otherwise, I agree completely. >I hope Jamie can become comfortable >with society's attitudes and that society eventually gives the same freedom >in this area to men that it allows women. I don't think it's that one-sided; in fact, I think the brunt of cultural discrimination falls on women. The begrudging acceptance of women doing ``masculine'' things is far from total. The average Joe doesn't complain much any more when a woman becomes a truck driver, but if his sister or his wife tried to become one--well, *that*'s ``different.'' -Ed
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (10/07/85)
I feel masculine when I:
cut down trees with a chainsaw
split wood with an axe
fix my car for 20% of what a mechanic charges
watch war movies
--
Arthur Rudolph believed that technology is morally neutral and so,
therefore, are those who create it.
Phil Ngai +1 408 749-5720
UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil
ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPAregard@ttidcc.UUCP (Adrienne Regard) (10/07/85)
Subject: Re: what makes you feel feminine/masculine? > > I find this amazing, though not necessarily bad. Here in 1985, >on a newsgroup devoted to women's issues, women are still talking >about pampering themselves, wearing traditionally women's things, >and being irrationally emotional as the things which make them feel >feminine. >--Jamie I found this question and the responding postings interesting as well. My response (which you did not note above) answered what I *thought* was the real question: What makes me feel feminine and what makes me feel masculine. I am surprised to discover that the interpretation others placed on the question excluded one side of the issue. After all, we have both masculine and feminine sides, don't we? We all feel both masculine at times and feminine at times, don't we? I'm curious why the men answered only about feeling masculine, and the women only about feeling feminine, but no one else answered about feeling both, until Jamie brought up the subject with his posting (filled with some vague sense of disquiet about feeling feminine at times). Comments? Adrienne Regard
andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) (10/07/85)
In article <848@homxb.UUCP> hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) writes: >Re Jamie Andrews' observations that men are constrained from >doing traditionally feminine things like wearing skirts, >wile the reverse is not true. >This will only change when men and women are seen as being >truly equal. As long as society sees the man's role as >being more desirable, powerful, or what have you, any >man who takes on what are seen as feminine ways and >attributes will be denigrated. This will even be true >by other women, since they are subject to the same societal >norms as men.... I don't accept this analysis. Does Ginger Grover think women are inferior because of what she said? (probably not) When heterosexual men object to being thought of as like women or gays, they have a very good, non-sexist reason: they're not. It's very possible to wish that you *were* a woman because you seem to want to do "women's things", or wish that you *were* gay because so many people seem to think you are. (I think I'm past most of that now.) Men have economic and political power in our society; but they don't have the power to change what people think of as masculine or feminine. When people talk about the privileged position of men, they're thinking of the classic male chauvinist. They're not thinking of the men who get burned emotionally and socially by society's expectations of them. --Jamie. ...!ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews "`If you are a wise man it certainly is your field,' said Maria. `They said a wise man should be able to catch the wind in a net.'" -R.Davies -- p.s. thanks for all the responses p.p.s. to tom "ointment" frye: Yes, I am a Scots Canadian, but I don't like my tartan (clan Ross) much. I'd rather have flowers on my skirt :-)
cheryl@lasspvax.UUCP (Cheryl Stewart) (10/08/85)
Wait, I thought "Jamie" was a she. Now I'm curious (yellow).
"Jamie" is a name that anybody can have -- like "Sandy" or "Jan"
or even "Colin". What makes people feel ANDROGYNOUS? Hmm?
I feel androgynous when I'm grading exams and don't look at the
names to tell whether the person under examination is male or female.
I feel androgynous when I get along with a man in two ways at the
same time -- one because he's masculine and I'm feminine and two because
he's masculine & part of me is masculine. I feel doubly androgynous
when three, because part of him is feminine & a complementary part
of me is masculine, while my feminine side corresponds to his feminine
side. I can cry & have long close talks with my brother, while
at the same time wanting to guide & protect him (because he's naive)
yet admire his carpentry and mechanical expertise, and still feel
like "one of the boys". I feel even more androgynous when all four
complementary & corresponding relationships are in effect with another
woman, my sister or aunt, for example.
I first picked the example of a brother-sister relationship, because it
excludes the explicit sexual posturing of most male-female relationships.
This allows a more "pure" examination of the interaction of masculine
& feminine personality traits and character attributes. I'm anything but
Christian, but maybe this is one of the benefits of a religious community
(I'm referring to some idealized monastic order where men are allowed to
be gentle, retiring and contemplative while women are allowed to write
books, make policy, run universities) -- an asexual androgyny which
allows more "real" relationships between PEOPLE in a manner unrelated
to who's got what kind of body.
Now sexual androgyny doesn't exclude the emotional, intellectual and
social interactions of asexual androgyny, it only adds a physical
dimension to a relationship (use your imagination). I would put
frills, lace, denim & steel discussions in the Prince-Lou Reed-
Village People-Boy George category of androgynous sexual posturing.
Oh, and don't forget Annie Lenox, Patti Smith and Lola. (See? Even
I am capable of politely ignoring the contribution of women).
I think that Mo Tucker (Drummer for the Velvet Underground) does
not do this androgynous sexual posturing thing -- she just plays
the drums & gets her name misspelled as "Moe" a lot (even on liner notes)
just because people are unaware (and can barely tell that) she is
a she.
I gotta go.
Cheryl Stewart
"Before they made me, they broke the mold."moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison ) (10/08/85)
In article <32@ubc-cs.UUCP> andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes: > > I find this amazing, though not necessarily bad. Here in 1985, >on a newsgroup devoted to women's issues, women are still talking >about pampering themselves, wearing traditionally women's things, >and being irrationally emotional as the things which make them feel >feminine. > I don't find this amazing at all. For me, what the women's movement is about is not only embracing the "masculine role", but continuing to value the "feminine role". It is not enough to be accorded the freedom and privleges accorded to men; we need to *value* those aspects of ourselves which are considered "feminine" (and therefore devalued in the patriarchal society) as well. I have some sympathy for you, Jamie. The frustration will only end, however, when you are able to accept both the feminine and masculine aspects of your personality. I feel "masculine" when I'm taking care of things myself: the flat tire on the car, leaky faucets, etc. I feel "feminine" when I'm wearing silk, or lace; when I'm very dressed up, etc, but most especially when I'm rocking a baby to sleep. Moira Mallison tektronix!moiram
crs@lanl.ARPA (10/09/85)
> Subject: Re: what makes you feel feminine/masculine? > > > > I find this amazing, though not necessarily bad. Here in 1985, > >on a newsgroup devoted to women's issues, women are still talking > >about pampering themselves, wearing traditionally women's things, > >and being irrationally emotional as the things which make them feel > >feminine. > >--Jamie > > I found this question and the responding postings interesting as well. > My response (which you did not note above) answered what I *thought* > was the real question: What makes me feel feminine and what makes > me feel masculine. I am surprised to discover that the interpretation > others placed on the question excluded one side of the issue. I wasn't sure which way to take the original posting, though I leaned toward the two sided view. > After all, we have both masculine and feminine sides, don't we? We all > feel both masculine at times and feminine at times, don't we? I'm curious > why the men answered only about feeling masculine, and the women only about > feeling feminine, but no one else answered about feeling both, until Jamie > brought up the subject with his posting (filled with some vague sense of > disquiet about feeling feminine at times). > > Comments? > > Adrienne Regard I tried to answer this in my own mind with little success. I think the issue is so hopelessly entangled with cultural definitions that no two of us are talking about the same thing. At best, what each of us could talk about is what *we* as individuals believe to be feminine or masculine. And *that* is where cultural bias *must* come in. None of us can completely escape the effects of, for lack of a better term, a lifetime of brainwashing. No matter how hard we try, won't we after all be talking about what we have been *taught* is feminine or masculine? Feminine and masculine are merely names that we have been taught for certain types of behavior, certain characteristics. Much of the misunderstanding that occurs on the net (and elsewhere) is a direct result of the fact that no two of us have exactly the same definition for anything. A lifetime of cultural conditioning will, it seems to me, *always* take precedence over the dictionary. As someone posted recently, I believe it was Trudy, I feel most *, where * is the name/identity of the person speaking may have some meaning. As soon as we try to separate the meaning of feminine/masculine from what we have learned throughout our lives so we can say I feel most ... , and we stop to think ... we haven't done so at all. It becomes "I feel most (what I have been taught is) feminine/masculine. Should we be surprised, then, that the majority of posters end up describing "what we always *knew* was feminine/masculine?" Sorry for rambling... -- All opinions are mine alone... Charlie Sorsby ...!{cmcl2,ihnp4,...}!lanl!crs crs@lanl.arpa
seb@mtgzz.UUCP (s.e.badian) (10/09/85)
In article <848@homxb.UUCP> hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) writes: >>Re Jamie Andrews' observations that men are constrained from >>doing traditionally feminine things like wearing skirts, >>wile the reverse is not true. >>This will only change when men and women are seen as being >>truly equal. As long as society sees the man's role as >>being more desirable, powerful, or what have you, any >>man who takes on what are seen as feminine ways and >>attributes will be denigrated. This will even be true >>by other women, since they are subject to the same societal >>norms as men.... >I don't accept this analysis. Does Ginger Grover think >women are inferior because of what she said? (probably not) >When heterosexual men object to being thought of as >like women or gays, they have a very good, non-sexist >reason: they're not. And I can't accept your analysis of this. Why is it unmasculine to wear a skirt? Men don't wear skirts because they don't want to be confused with women? I know very few men who would be confused with women if they wore a skirt. Skirts are for women and have, traditionally been so. A man who wears a skirt loses power(being like a woman). I am not going to get into the politics of wearing skirts, or wearing pants, at least not right now. I have work to do, but if any of you would like to read about our society's imposed standards of femininity I suggest you get a hold of Susan Brownmiller's book "Femininity." It is excellent. >Men have economic and political power in our society; >but they don't have the power to change what people think of >as masculine or feminine. Men have been dictating what is maculine and feminine throughout time. Clothes is a particularly good example. Look at the furor Elizabeth Caty Stanton and Susan B. Anthony started when they decided they didn't want to wear skirts that reached to the floor. Why is it that a well dressed female executive can't wear pants, but must wear a skirt? Well dressed women still don't wear pants in most cases. And don't tell me it's because they like to wear dresses and skirts. I've been to enough meetings to know that slacks on a woman are just not "dressed up" enough for business. The equal of a 3 piece suit is still a skirt, blouse and jacket. Do you think women are actually dictating this fashion? There aren't enough women at the meetings to make a difference yet. Men have no interest in changing the standards of femininity because they have nothing to lose if the standards remain the same, and stand to lose security and possibly power if they do change. But if they wanted to, they could bring about change. Sharon Badian ihnp4!mtgzz!seb
@gatech.UUCP (10/10/85)
> Men have economic and political power in our society; > but they don't have the power to change what people think of > as masculine or feminine. What?! Aren't men people too?! Don't people have some role in the changing of what people think?!
ray@rochester.UUCP (Ray Frank) (10/10/85)
> In article <32@ubc-cs.UUCP> andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes: > > > > I find this amazing, though not necessarily bad. Here in 1985, > >on a newsgroup devoted to women's issues, women are still talking > >about pampering themselves, wearing traditionally women's things, > >and being irrationally emotional as the things which make them feel > >feminine. > > > > I don't find this amazing at all. For me, what the women's > movement is about is not only embracing the "masculine role", but > continuing to value the "feminine role". It is not enough to > be accorded the freedom and privleges accorded to men; we > need to *value* those aspects of ourselves which are considered > "feminine" (and therefore devalued in the patriarchal society) as > well. > > I have some sympathy for you, Jamie. The frustration will only > end, however, when you are able to accept both the feminine and > masculine aspects of your personality. > > I feel "masculine" when I'm taking care of things myself: the flat > tire on the car, leaky faucets, etc. I feel "feminine" when I'm > wearing silk, or lace; when I'm very dressed up, etc, but most > especially when I'm rocking a baby to sleep. > > Moira Mallison > tektronix!moiram Ahhhhh, you sound like my kind of woman. Bravo. Nothing wrong with being a mult-faceted person.
nancy@enmasse.UUCP (Nancy Werlin) (10/10/85)
On some answers to "what makes you feel masculine/feminine?" which included tradionally feminine things like wearing taffeta and perfume, Jamie (ubc-cs!andrews and male) writes: > > I find this amazing... women are still talking > about [ being traditional and irrationally emotional ]... > as the things which make them feel feminine. > This makes me frustrated... [ I can't feel comfortable about > doing "feminine" things ]... > I also can't feel good about doing traditionally masculine > things, because of the bad feelings I associate with "playing the > role"... If I read you correctly, you are saying (may I paraphrase?) that you are amazed and a bit bewildered at the fact that the people posting their masculine/feminine lists don't seem to have many qualms about enjoying playing stereotypic sex roles, whereas you feel uncomfortable. I believe Rich Rosen said he felt the same way. Well, I'm with both of you. As a woman, I read with particular interest and, to be honest, some horror, at the unabashed postings listing perfume,
tron@fluke.UUCP (Peter Barbee) (10/10/85)
>I first picked the example of a brother-sister relationship, because it >excludes the explicit sexual posturing of most male-female relationships. >This allows a more "pure" examination of the interaction of masculine >& feminine personality traits and character attributes. This brings up a point I'm really interested in. The sexual posturing of most male-female relationships. For me, I find that it gets in the way. I have many (at least several) rewarding relationships with women that do not inlcude sex. The problem is that there is still sexual posturing. I admit there are times I enjoy what I call 'sexual tension' but usually I find that it somehow limits our possibilities. This syndrome causes the most problems early in a friendship, before both people are sure where things are headed. I suppose this is natural when the possibility of sex still exists, but I wish it didn't. It is as if the first option is always sex, and then if that won't work one looks to a "platonic" relationhsip. Got to go, but I'd like to ask "do women feel this way to?" obviously women dont' think as a class so this is a poll. Peter B
tron@fluke.UUCP (Peter Barbee) (10/10/85)
>I feel "feminine" when I'm >wearing silk, or lace; when I'm very dressed up, etc, but most >especially when I'm rocking a baby to sleep. > >Moira Mallison I think I feel most masculine when I'm rocking a baby to sleep, or maybe just happiest. Peter B
nancy@enmasse.UUCP (Nancy Werlin) (10/11/85)
*************************************************************************
An apology: I accidently posted only the beginning of a version
of this article earlier. Didn't know how to recall it.
*************************************************************************
On some answers to "what makes you feel masculine/feminine?" which included
tradionally feminine things like wearing taffeta and perfume,
and masculine things like chopping wood and fixing cars,
Jamie (ubc-cs!andrews and male) writes:
>
> I find this amazing... women are still talking
> about [ being traditional and irrationally emotional ]...
> as the things which make them feel feminine.
> This makes me frustrated... [ I can't feel comfortable about
> doing "feminine" things ]...
> I also can't feel good about doing traditionally masculine
> things, because of the bad feelings I associate with "playing the
> role"...
If I read you correctly, you are saying (may I paraphrase?) that
you are amazed and a bit bewildered at the fact that the people
posting their masculine/feminine lists don't seem to have
many qualms about enjoying stereotypic sex roles, whereas
you feel uncomfortable. It's the old sugar 'n spice 'n everything
nice versus frogs and snails and puppy dogs' tails scenario --
except that haven't we all grown up by now? Don't we know that
being a woman or a man is a lot more complicated than, say, putting
on the Chanel No.5 and the little black dress with its little black
accessories and stiletto heels, or, on the other hand,
putting on the worn out lumberjack shirt which has gotten
a bit tight over the biceps lately and tinkering with
the '65 Triumph or ancient Ford truck in the backyard?
Well, have we grown up? I don't know. I have felt *extremely*
uncomfortable reading these traditionally-oriented postings.
I suggest that the people posting their masculine/
feminine lists have not been entirely honest, and that this is
why their lists are so free of ambiguity.
Certainly, I feel feminine in a low-cut black velvet dress
I happen to own. BUT. I also feel feminine when
it's night and there I am in the parking lot of Star Market and
my car won't start. I sit there, holding back panic. It's dark
out. I try the starter again. Nothing. I get out and check the
oil. Why, you ask? Because it's the only thing I know how to do
under the hood of my car. I get rescued by a man who is parked next
to me. I feel feminine. Great. I take my car in to get a new battery
(after another man has identified the problem for me). They
replace it and charge me $75. Batteries cost $40 at Sears.
Terrific. I feel feminine. It's dark out and I'm alone
and I hear someone behind me. I feel feminine then, believe me.
More positively, I felt feminine when I spent a month travelling
by myself, without a set itinerary, managing whatever major
and minor crises occurred on the trip without needing to resort
to help from anyone. I feel feminine when I get paid.
(I feel feminine when I get paid *less* than I am worth, too.)
I feel feminine when I explain the inner workings of UNIX
or write a program that works.
The perfumey feminine feelings are not news to me. But my
other feelings of feminity are. They have led me to realize
that I feel positively about myself and my sex when I display
competence of any sort. (This includes competence at
those traditionally feminine things which I happen to enjoy,
like dressing up.) I feel negatively about myself and
my sex when I display helplessness ("What's a motor?").
Now, helplessness is a traditionally feminine thing,
like lace and high heels. No one has mentioned that along
with the rest.
When we lavish attention on the fact that there's a
large basis in reality to some of the old stereotypes,
without paying attention to the places where those stereotypes
have failed us, we risk losing sight of the complexity
with which we actually live out our lives as men and women.
If we lose sight, we limit ourselves -- and we are back where
we started, without the freedom to make choices about our lives.
So I would vote for a cessation of the perfume/wood chopping articles
in favor of discussing the ambiguities involved in being
masculine or feminine. How do we resolve the stereotypic
masculine/feminine cliches to which we so obviously subscribe?
Does sexual identify depend on these cliches? The list postings
imply that it does. Jamie's posting describes how influenced he is by
the cliches, and how he feels limited by them (and by his own
changing values). I believe Rich Rosen expressed similar feelings.
So let's have more of this sort of talk. What do all of you think?
Nancy Werlin
EnMasse Computer Corp.
Acton, MAmink@cfa.UUCP (Doug Mink) (10/11/85)
> When we lavish attention on the fact that there's a > large basis in reality to some of the old stereotypes, > without paying attention to the places where those stereotypes > have failed us, we risk losing sight of the complexity > with which we actually live out our lives as men and women. > If we lose sight, we limit ourselves -- and we are back where > we started, without the freedom to make choices about our lives. > > So I would vote for a cessation of the perfume/wood chopping articles > in favor of discussing the ambiguities involved in being > masculine or feminine. How do we resolve the stereotypic > masculine/feminine cliches to which we so obviously subscribe? > Does sexual identify depend on these cliches? > > Nancy Werlin As I was posting my "perfume/woodchopping"-style response, I tried to articulate both the positive and negative sides of sex-stereotyped traits I have observed in myself. I've thought of myself as a feminist since the 60's, but the influences of the earlier times in which I grew up and my traditional mother-stays-home-while-father-brings-home-the-bread family life left some deep expectations of How Things Should Be between men and women which I'm still trying to exorcise. Part of the way we act is always going to be gender-linked; it pays to be aware of that part of our personna, not denying it, but not letting it get in the way of being whole individual human beings, either. -Doug
miller@nlm-mcs.ARPA (Nancy Miller) (10/11/85)
> I feel "masculine" when I'm taking care of things myself: the flat > tire on the car, leaky faucets, etc. I feel "feminine" when I'm > wearing silk, or lace; when I'm very dressed up, etc, but most > especially when I'm rocking a baby to sleep. > > Moira Mallison > tektronix!moiram Funny, I just feel competent, and good, when I take care of things myself. When I think about it, I can see where fixing things has been considered to be masculine. But, then, it always has burned me up when I've been expected to be "a typically incompetent female," as society has thought of us for so long. -- ________________________________________________________________________________ __ __ <> <> | `-' Nancy Miller (miller@nlm-mcs.arpa)
jonesg@ecn-pc.UUCP (Glynda Jones) (10/12/85)
I guess you are defining femininity/masculinity as the feeling that results from an act or thought that creates a sense of satisfaction with oneself, particularly (but not limited to) situations with the opposite sex. Anyone could use this definition to defend just about anything they do, from the chauvinists (either sex) to the well-rounded folk. It's a matter of what satisfies a person. Or a matter of what a person finds to be self-reenforcing. Some people feel very masculine/feminine when they deride other people. Some people feel very feminine/masculine when they can help someone in need. Some people feel very masculine/feminine when their attire draws compliments from either or both sexes. I could go on forever. Instead, I'll just list a few of mine. Holding hands with my husband Caring for a baby Sitting and talking with a group of men Baking (Honest!) Getting the door for someone Someone getting the door for me (and other courtesies) Wearing nail polish etc. It's nice to be a woman. Sorry, but douches do NOT make me feel feminine! -- Glynda Jones Davis (my friends call me Gigi--The Bursar calls me Glynda) Biomedical Engineering Center Purdue University West Lafayette, Indiana 47907
jonesg@ecn-pc.UUCP (Glynda Jones) (10/12/85)
I agree. It's too bad that we have to cut through all of the sexual posturing to find out what type of relationship we want to establish with someone. I could lament for days about how society has dealt us a cruel hand, but since I am a member of that faceless, nameless mob, I had better be certain that I am not posturing about like some #&%#%"'%'%":. Sorry, I just ran out of words. -- Glynda Jones Davis (my friends call me Gigi--The Bursar calls me Glynda) Biomedical Engineering Center Purdue University West Lafayette, Indiana 47907
suki@reed.UUCP (Monica Nosek) (10/14/85)
In article <479@enmasse.UUCP> nancy@enmasse.UUCP (Nancy Werlin) writes: >I have felt *extremely* >uncomfortable reading these traditionally-oriented postings. >I suggest that the people posting their masculine/ >feminine lists have not been entirely honest, and that this is >why their lists are so free of ambiguity. >Nancy Werlin >EnMasse Computer Corp. >Acton, MA Actually, along with the Chanel No. 5 and taffeta in my posting were bare feet and jeans -- extend this to include other "paradoxical" items. Sure, I love playing football with my housemates, and I love hanging out at home with them (three men and one woman) doing housemate stuff -- not particularly masculine, not particularly feminine, just...housemates who I love dearly. Perhaps taffeta, lace, and amethysts *are* "stereotypically feminine". Why should that stop me from feeling extra special when I wear them? Nancy brings up a good point, though, in saying that she is aware of her femininity when she is alone in a dark parking lot, for instance. This is true for me, as well, but it is a situation that generally does not occur as a planned event. It is a negative feeling, one which I choose to avoid as much as possible, and in my (partial) list I included things that make me feel good and feminine. I'll admit that Nancy brings up some very good questions, but I'll also continue to feel that as long as I can keep a proper perspective on the whole issue, it doesn't really hurt me to enjoy "stereotypically feminine" things. Monica tektronix!reed!suki
moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison ) (10/14/85)
In article <12242@rochester.UUCP> ray@rochester.UUCP (Ray Frank) writes: > [in response to what makes me feel feminine/masculine]. > >Ahhhhh, you sound like my kind of woman. Bravo. >Nothing wrong with being a mult-faceted person. Judging from your previous postings, I'm not sure I would call this a vote of confidence. :-) (I think). Moira Mallison tektronix!moiram
jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (10/15/85)
> >I feel "feminine" when I'm > >wearing silk, or lace; when I'm very dressed up, etc, but most > >especially when I'm rocking a baby to sleep. > > I think I feel most masculine when I'm rocking a baby to sleep, or maybe just > happiest. Not to criticize, but I confess I'm a little lost in this discussion. I hardly ever think of my actions or feelings as being "masculine" or "feminine". Maybe I'm just wierd. Jeff Winslow
mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (Damballah Wedo) (10/15/85)
Great article by Nancy Werlin (<479@enmasse.UUCP>)!! > So I would vote for a cessation of the perfume/wood chopping articles > in favor of discussing the ambiguities involved in being > masculine or feminine. How do we resolve the stereotypic > masculine/feminine cliches to which we so obviously subscribe? > Does sexual identify depend on these cliches? I don't think so. However, I do feel some traditionally masculine actions reinforce one's own maleness (the same is true of women.) As an example, I feel very masculine when my 17-year old nephew seeks me out for advice on the traditional problems of late male adolescence. I feel very male when I am in a room full of women, all of whom are blissfully spouting "men are so..." cliches and I manage not to get upset.... I think one's view of one's sexuality is reinforced by the actions and situations that reflect it. I know this sounds like circular reasoning, but if one's view of oneself leads to wanting to wear frilly lace, then one will feel most like one's sex when wearing frilly lace. The same is true fixing machine tools. The point is to feel comfortable with that view of oneself, accept that it may be at great variance with what is expected, and decide whether that view is important enough to one's self-image to warrant bucking societal norms. Yes, that requires great strength and self-confidence, but you can't be well-adjusted without them (yes, I know I am also saying that one cannot be self-confident without being well-adjusted; I don't really have this thought through yet) -- Marcel-Franck Simon ihnp4!{mhuxr, hl3b5b}!mfs " Papa Loko, ou se' van, ou-a pouse'-n alle' Nou se' papiyon, n-a pote' nouvel bay Agwe' "
crs@lanl.ARPA (10/15/85)
> Men have no interest in changing the standards of femininity > because they have nothing to lose if the standards remain the same, > and stand to lose security and possibly power if they do change. But ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ > if they wanted to, they could bring about change. > > Sharon Badian > ihnp4!mtgzz!seb HOW? -- All opinions are mine alone... Charlie Sorsby ...!{cmcl2,ihnp4,...}!lanl!crs crs@lanl.arpa
susan@madvax.UUCP (Susan Finkelman) (10/15/85)
paragraph deleted > This brings up a point I'm really interested in. The sexual posturing > of most male-female relationships. > > For me, I find that it gets in the way. I have many (at least several) > rewarding relationships with women that do not inlcude sex. The problem > is that there is still sexual posturing. I admit there are times I enjoy > what I call 'sexual tension' but usually I find that it somehow limits > our possibilities. > paragraph deleted > Got to go, but I'd like to ask "do women feel this way to?" obviously > women dont' think as a class so this is a poll. > > Peter B I often feel that way. Most of my men friends are married, partnered (is that a verb?) or gay, taking sex out of the realm of reasonable possiblity by my rules. I find it difficult to deal with the sexual "tension" that occurs often with single men. I don't want to be homogenized into sexual sameness, though. Susan Finkelman {zehntel,amd,fortune,resonex,rtech}!varian!susan
robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) (10/15/85)
In article <479@enmasse.UUCP>, nancy@enmasse.UUCP (Nancy Werlin) writes: > [...] It's the old sugar 'n spice 'n everything > nice versus frogs and snails and puppy dogs' tails scenario -- > except that haven't we all grown up by now? Don't we know that > being a woman or a man is a lot more complicated than, say, putting > on the Chanel No.5 and the little black dress with its little black > accessories and stiletto heels, or, on the other hand, > putting on the worn out lumberjack shirt which has gotten > a bit tight over the biceps lately and tinkering with > the '65 Triumph or ancient Ford truck in the backyard? > > Well, have we grown up? I don't know. I have felt *extremely* > uncomfortable reading these traditionally-oriented postings. > I suggest that the people posting their masculine/ > feminine lists have not been entirely honest, and that this is > why their lists are so free of ambiguity. Worrying about whether you're acting grown-up enough is bad enough during childhood, but I think it's a little sad that people resist things in adult life because they seem "childish." Most people enjoy dressing up, but many feel compelled to deny it, or to find excuses. I'm sufficiently grown up not to worry about acting childish. Wearing a tuxedo makes me feel masculine, I suppose (so does helping a stranger push his stalled car out of an intersection), but that's not the term I'd use if I weren't joining an existing conversation. -- Robert Plamondon {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert
pwk@ccice2.UUCP (Paul W. Karber) (10/16/85)
In article <1246@mtgzz.UUCP> seb@mtgzz.UUCP (s.e.badian) writes: > Men have been dictating what is masculine and feminine >throughout time. Clothes is (are) a particularly good example. "Men have been dictating"? I think you are over estimating the power of men. >Look at >the furor Elizabeth Caty Stanton and Susan B. Anthony started when >they decided they didn't want to wear skirts that reached to the >floor. Why is it that a well dressed female executive can't wear >pants, but must wear a skirt? Why is it that I can't wear a coat, tie, and shorts? They do in New Zealand. >Well dressed women still don't wear >pants in most cases. And don't tell me it's because they like to >wear dresses and skirts. I've been to enough meetings to know that >slacks on a woman are just not "dressed up" enough for business. Don't tell me I like to wear pants. Shorts are just not "dressed up" enough for business. >The equal of a 3 piece suit is still a skirt, blouse and jacket. >Do you think women are actually dictating this fashion? There aren't >enough women at the meetings to make a difference yet. When there are enough women what will they wear? 3 piece suits? Will I get to wear shorts? I don't like my 3 piece suit any more then you like your skirt, blouse, and jacket. Do you think men are actually dictating this fashion? (If you really want to talk about discomfort we could talk about my tie and your high hell shoes (not a typo). (I usually wear a clip-on tie myself. It looks funky but I can BREATH.)) Society dictates fashion. Men have been stuck with suits. What makes you think that when there are "enough women at the meetings" they will make a difference? Do you really think men are that different from women? > Men have no interest in changing the standards of femininity >because they have nothing to lose if the standards remain the same, >and stand to lose security and possibly power if they do change. But >if they wanted to, they could bring about change. > >Sharon Badian >ihnp4!mtgzz!seb I have a lot of interest in changing the standards, and I can think of a lot of things I stand to gain if they do change. -- siesmo!rochester!ccice5!ccice2!pwk
becky@cylixd.UUCP (Becky Bates) (10/17/85)
> >I first picked the example of a brother-sister relationship, because it > >excludes the explicit sexual posturing of most male-female relationships. > >This allows a more "pure" examination of the interaction of masculine > >& feminine personality traits and character attributes. > > This brings up a point I'm really interested in. The sexual posturing > of most male-female relationships. > > For me, I find that it gets in the way. I have many (at least several) > rewarding relationships with women that do not inlcude sex. The problem > is that there is still sexual posturing. I admit there are times I enjoy > what I call 'sexual tension' but usually I find that it somehow limits > our possibilities. > > This syndrome causes the most problems early in a friendship, before both > people are sure where things are headed. I suppose this is natural when > the possibility of sex still exists, but I wish it didn't. It is as if > the first option is always sex, and then if that won't work one looks to > a "platonic" relationhsip. > > Got to go, but I'd like to ask "do women feel this way to?" obviously > women dont' think as a class so this is a poll. > > Peter B Dear Peter B. I am experiencing some of the same emotions and experiences that you mentioned above. I have a friend now that I am very attracted to but told him that I cannot see developing a serious relationship with him. I want to continue our friendship but find it hard to not express my sexual feelings as well. We have been through a lot together and can talk like close friends, its the same as my female friends when we talk about our problems, etc. I guess sex always comes up in a relationship and there are people that I have met that I do not parti- cularly care to even kiss. I guess it can be very frustrating because I want very much to stay friends with my male (buddy) but the attraction we have for each other gets in the way, so what do you do? Do you stop seeing each other because you cannot just be friends, I have had this problem always with men who have become friends after the initial attraction. I think becoming friends before, if possible, anything else is the key. I am learning that I can have a friendship with a male that I love and not be in love or develop anything beyond that. My friend is learning the same thing and it is nice growing in this friendship together. I believe that honesty above all else is necessary in any kind of friendship, whether it be a love relationship, a co-worker friendship, whatever. I wish the "sexual-tension" problem did not exist either because it is very hard to be friends with the opposite sex sometimes because of this. I have had several friends in my club that are males and I feel no sexual tension there, I avoid any display of attracting someone and stick to subjects that will not arouse any thoughts of sex. I guess my answer is yes to you posting, that women have the same problem with feeling tension in friendships that involve the opposite sex but you can have friendships. (R.) (B.)
terry@nrcvax.UUCP (Terry Grevstad) (10/18/85)
nancy@enmasse.UUCP (Nancy Werlin) says: > >On some answers to "what makes you feel masculine/feminine?" which included >tradionally feminine things like wearing taffeta and perfume, >and masculine things like chopping wood and fixing cars, >or write a program that works. > >So I would vote for a cessation of the perfume/wood chopping articles >in favor of discussing the ambiguities involved in being >masculine or feminine. How do we resolve the stereotypic >masculine/feminine cliches to which we so obviously subscribe? >Does sexual identify depend on these cliches? The list postings >imply that it does. Jamie's posting describes how influenced he is by >the cliches, and how he feels limited by them (and by his own >changing values). I believe Rich Rosen expressed similar feelings. >So let's have more of this sort of talk. What do all of you think? > I have a friend who was once asked when she felt feminine. Her answer (paraphrased): I always feel feminine. I have all the female parts and I know I'm female, therefore I feel feminine. I tend to agree with her. I am female, and living with myself day in and day out doesn't allow for forgetting that fact. The tools that I use and the things that I do during the day really don't have any impact on how I feel about myself. (unless I really screw something up, and then I feel totally incompetent--a feeling that can be ascribed to men as well as women) My husband carries a pocket knife and a screwdriver with him at all times, in his pockets. I keep mine in my purse. I find them to be handy little items, and they don't care if a man or a woman uses them. My husband also keeps some chapstick in his pocket. I keep lipstick in my purse. I really can't see much difference here, except I keep my stuff in a bag, and he keeps his stuff in his pockets. Frankly, even though I wear jeans most of the time, I don't like having all that junk in my pockets. I'll keep my bag, thank you. Frankly, I don't understand all this feminine/masculine mystique business. When I wear perfume and satin I feel good. My husband feels good when he wears cologne and suede. I think the distinction for me is between what makes me feel good and what doesn't rather than what makes me feel feminine or masculine. -- \"\t\f1A\h'+1m'\f4\(mo\h'+1m'\f1the\h'+1m'\f4\(es\t\f1\c _______________________________________________________________________ Terry Grevstad Network Research Corporation ihnp4!nrcvax!terry {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!terry
jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (10/18/85)
> > >I feel "feminine" when I'm > > >wearing silk, or lace; when I'm very dressed up, etc, but most > > >especially when I'm rocking a baby to sleep. > > > > I think I feel most masculine when I'm rocking a baby to sleep, or maybe just > > happiest. > > Not to criticize, but I confess I'm a little lost in this discussion. I hardly > ever think of my actions or feelings as being "masculine" or "feminine". Maybe > I'm just wierd. > Jeff Winslow I feel pretty much the same way, and that's why I haven't said anything on this topic so far. I don't attribute any of my feelings to masculinity or femininity because I'm not organized that way. I would even say that sex makes me feel good but not masculine. I'm not even sure what feeling masculine would be like: would it be an awareness of my masculinity? If so, maybe that's why I don't feel that way. I have a distaste for men who who have a "look at how masculine I am" attitude, even to the point where I wouldn't like telling myself that I am masculine: it would feel like I was bragging to myself, which would be a worse sin than the boasting of the overly-macho types. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) "Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent..." {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
seb@mtgzz.UUCP (s.e.badian) (10/22/85)
>> [from me] > [from siesmo!rochester!ccice5!ccice2!pwk] > Men have been dictating what is masculine and feminine >throughout time. Clothes is (are) a particularly good example. > "Men have been dictating"? I think you are over estimating the power > of men. Ok, men have not been "dictating" but throughout history they have been the prime movers in society. The "feminine ideal" was conceived by men (and women) to please men. There is nothing wrong with pleasing men, but when the ideal calls for getting rid of all ambition, learning and self-reliance, I think that's pushing it a little far. In the past women were in competition for a limited commodity - men. For a woman without a man was dependent on her family for support. And she was a failure. If she couldn't attract a man she had failed because in reality that was all she could do. Just think about all the novels(particularly romantic novels) that are based on the poor peasant girl marrying the rich prince (Cinderella!!). This was success! So a woman's success in life was based on her ability to attract men. Certainly, this isn't true of men. The romantic novels just wouldn't work the other way around. Thankfully, things are changing and women are not judged successful or unsuccessful based on how well they attract men. Well, that isn't the only criteria used anymore, though women are still judged more severely on their looks than men. (There was a recent study that showed that attractiveness has some strange effects on perceptions of executives. More attractive women are perceived as less effective, while in men it has no effect. Why do you think that is so? That's a rhetorical question.) Oddly enough, while the strict rules of femininity have been greatly relaxed in recent years, the basic rules of masculinity remain intact. And from what I've read here, the reason that they are still intact is peer pressure from MEN. I've seen a few men come out and say that they like dresses, earrings and nail polish, which are feminine things. And why don't they indulge these whims? Because they fear rejection and embarrassment from other men. Do they fear the same things from women? In my 25 years of life (or the part of it I remember, at least :-)), I've found that women try to impress men (with bigger breasts, shaplier legs, more knowledge of football) and men try to impress men (with running faster, throwing harder, and drinking more). Sure men try to impress women, but many of the masculine things that men do to impress women are also there to impress men. All the sports stuff, all the body stuff ("oh he's such a hunk!"), the fast sleek sports cars. Now, I know I'm speaking in stereotypes, but I think you get the point. The men are the only ones who can answer my question. You complain about the rules of masculinity, but where do they come from? Don't throw "SOCIETY" at me! Society is made up of people. Society's perception of women as drastically changed in the last 30 years. Why not an equal shift in society's perception of men? You all have to admit that the change has not been equal. Women are free to be more like men (that's the best way I can think of putting it). They can sweat, they can work and they can do something other than get married. Are men more free to be women? Well, men are encouraged to be more open and emotional, but it seems that a lot of that has not come off. For instance, TV, the barometer of popular culture and thought in our country. I was watching Hill St Blues last week. The Mayor's son was shot and killed. I was kind of hoping they'd show at least a little tear, ok maybe just a welling up of tears in the mayor's eyes when he talked about it. But no, he's the great stoic. You can see him forcing to keep it all inside of him. So much for open and emotional. So we're back to the question of "why can't men act like more like women?" If men could act more like women, men could wear dresses in the heat of the summer, men could wear makeup if they wanted to, men could be nurses without having to be "male nurses" like we somehow have to dis- tinguish them from the women, men could be interior decoraters and florists without being labeled gay. You want me to solve this problem? I can't figure why the problem persists, and you want me to offer a solution? But I am sure that the solution rests mostly with men - yes men. How men percieve each other. And that's something that you have to work out in your own head. >> Men have no interest in changing the standards of femininity >>because they have nothing to lose if the standards remain the same, >>and stand to lose security and possibly power if they do change. But >>if they wanted to, they could bring about change. >I have a lot of interest in changing the standards, and I can >think of a lot of things I stand to gain if they do change. Ok, lets look at the loss of security and power I speak of. I will use examples I have seen on the net. Just this morning someone (a male) said that though he liked to wear an earring and sometimes clear nail polish, he felt very uncomfortable doing this in group of strange men. Obviously this is a loss of security. I don't know that he feared bodily harm, but I would think he feared verbal abuse and derision. Is this a loss of power? You bet your sweet boots it is! He no longer taken seriously among his peers, namely other men. He has become like a woman, a sissy, a fag. Now, this man doesn't have any reason to change femininity. In fact, he wants to embarce a small part of it. What he wants to change is mascu- linity, because masculinity does not include the feminine side of him. Looking at the responses to the what makes you feel feminine/masculine question you find that the feminine part hasn't changed. If you want some more proof look around. Particularly look at Madison Ave. I'm not saying that Madison Ave is the last authority on what "men" or "women" think, but advertising does show us what sells. And what sells is what agrees with the values of most of the people in this country. What do we see? Almost all the cooking, cleaning, and mothering done in this country is still done by women. We see "America made the American way," everyone happily toiling away in the fields and the factories, but no women! What I see is what sells in this country and it doesn't give me too much hope. Femininity has not changed all that much, folks. And though women have more freedom in taking the parts of femininity that they want, they are still constrained by the feminine ideal. (In fact it's probably gotten harder for women to come close to the ideal. Now they have to have to possess glamour, poise and beauty, plus an IQ of 150, a well paying job, and successfully handle a family. Seems to me that we've just added a bit to femininity.) And I don't see all that much change going on among the men. Though all of you may deny it loudly, I believe that men want the old feminine ideals of beauty, and sometimes the self-reliance and brains. I know all you men out there are going to scream and yell and say it isn't true. But I'll just remind you that you are not representative of men. You are probably some of the brightest men, the best educated men and the most liberal men (in a social values sense, not a political sense), Ken Arndt excluded, of course. :-) Do you really think the way that you perceive the world is representative? I don't pretend that my views are representative of women. Sharon Badian ihnp4!mtgzz!seb
mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (Damballah Wedo) (10/22/85)
> Sharon Badian: > > The men are the only ones who can answer my question. You complain about the > rules of masculinity, but where do they come from? Don't generalize; *some*, *a few*, or whatever, complain. > ..... Women are free to be more like men .... So why do they complain so bitterly about it? A lot of women's writing (not necessarily feminist or political) is about how lonely, competitive, etc. it is to operate in this society. About how lousy a deal it is to reach the top and have no one to share it with, etc. Of course, that is men's fault. Never mind that we have known this all along, that we are also stuck in the same loop. It's our fault. I don't ever recall hearing a male say that if women were more like men, everything would be OK. If women made that assumption, fought to make it reality and now find that it was faulty, well, whose responsibility is that? > So we're back to the question of "why can't men act like more like women?" So that's the central question, hey? If women want to be more like men, then men must want to be more like women. Well, I don't claim to speak for anyone other than myself, but I enjoy being male, and I can't honestly see any advantage in becoming "more like women." Sure I'm imperfect. Sure I have been told, by men and women, that I can be a royal pain in the neck. I believe this imperfection is what makes me whatever is is that I am. Despite this imperfection, I have made some deep and lasting (i.e. > 25 years) friendships and am building a life with a tremendous woman. I am comfortable in my own skin, and see no real reason to want to become "more like women," and especially not because some woman says so. > I don't see all that much change going on among the men. Though > all of you may deny it loudly, I believe that men want the old > feminine ideals of beauty, and sometimes the self-reliance and brains. A woman that is beautiful, self-reliant and intelligent would come pretty close to being perfect. There were precious few of them around, last time I looked. Cynthia Heimel (a very funny woman) claims the ideal man is filthy rich, gorgeous, can fuck for 12 hours at a time, has a lifetime supply of cocaine and brings home a dozen roses every night (or something like that.) Perhaps you women should get together and decide what you want from men before posting long articles about what we are not :-) -- Marcel-Franck Simon ihnp4!{mhuxr, hl3b5b}!mfs " Sa ou pa konnin toujou pi fo pase' ou "
tron@fluke.UUCP (Peter Barbee) (10/23/85)
Great article Sharon, I agree with a lot but not all of what you say. I'll respond only to your three questions below. >[men don't show femininity] Because they fear rejection and >embarrassment from other men. Do they fear the same things from women? > Yes, in fact I feel as much rejection from women as from men as I show more of my "feminine" side. (a sidebar, I don't have a feminine side but I do have traits society (that's all you out there) label feminine). >The men are the only ones who can answer my question. You complain about the >rules of masculinity, but where do they come from? Don't throw "SOCIETY" >at me! Society is made up of people. Society's perception of women >as drastically changed in the last 30 years. Why not an equal shift in >society's perception of men? To the first question, yes *society* does create the rules of masculinity. Why does the Rambo image still have admirers? If women stopped being interested in Rambo don't you think he'd start to go away? I do, because if the way I act was causing me to not be able to find suitable female accomplices I would change the way I act (for now I'm not changing). I think that *society* is composed of both men and women and, as in it takes two to Tango, both sexes are active participants on the rules committee. It may be that men have a few more votes, I'm not sure. To the second question, a simplistic answer is that men haven't changed. Thus society's perception hasn't changed. A more interesting answer is that I think "men's liberation" (or hopefully human liberation) has lagged the women's lib movement by several years. In fact it is barely underway now. Men didn't (and don't) realize how stifling their role of power is, not all of us are willing to give up that power. Remember, power corrupts, and infinite power corrupts infinetely. This is the situation many men are used to. How do I know the men's liberation movement has barely begun to gain momentum? In this very socially liberal community we do not support a men's forum nearly as well as we do for women. I know we're somewhat interested because there are so many male postings to net.women (although sometimes I think we (the men) are merely trying to prove that we are the most sensitive male around), but the men's mailing list still has not gotten off the ground (it is moving, maybe it will become airborne). At least we do have some inertia, no matter how little. With hope, Peter B { allegra, ihnp4!uw-beaver }!fluke!tron
perkins@bnrmtv.UUCP (Henry Perkins) (10/24/85)
I'm painfully reminded of my masculinity when I'm riding my bike fast and
a pothole jumps up and smites me.
I get a similar reminder when I wake up with a painfully full bladder, and
an accompanying errection to stop up the plumbing.
Another much more pleasant awareness is when I make an enormous stretch,
and hear cracking all up and down my sternum. Feels great!
--
{hplabs,amdahl,3comvax}!bnrmtv!perkins --Henry Perkinsmfs@mhuxr.UUCP (Damballah Wedo) (10/26/85)
> Sharon Badian: > ...of course, I have to generalize! I can't name every man in > the world and say "Well, this one feels this way, and that one feels some- > thing totally different." I think the one's who have voiced complaints > lately know that I am talking about them. They are the only ones who can > answer my question since they feel that way. Your article was full of references to generic "men." If you meant by that the three or four men who have already agreed with you, you should have said so. > .... The reality is that in business women and minorities have > to follow the same rules that men follow. > .... But again I have to ask "If you, as a man, find the rules > unfair, and know that other men feel the same way, why don't you try to > change the rules?" ... > why after so many years of male dominination in business, are you complaining > about something that men, as a group, could change if they wanted to? > And don't ask me how! Groups of individuals have significant clout > in our society. And considering the power, money and influence that men, > as a group, have, it seems absurd to think that they can't change the > rules under which they operate. It seems obvious to me that most men > either like the current set of rules, are ambilivalent, or have given up > trying. First, a group's power is a in direct proportion to how unified the group is in support of specific issues. Such a consensus does not exist in favor of the changes you speak of. Second, recognition that something is not perfect does not imply that a proposed alternative is better. For example, capitalism is deeply flawed, founded as it is on greed canceling out greed. Considering the practice of proposed alternatives, however, I'll stick to it. Third, what is your alternative? Before you answer that question, ask *yourself* if *you* would vote for a male presidential candidate who wore earrings. Finally, the limited sample we have (Imelda Marcos, Margaret Thatcher, Michele Bennett Duvalier, Isabelita Peron, etc. among contemporaries; Catherine the Great, Messalina, Marie-Antoinette, etc. among historical figures) proves rather conclusively that women are as likely to be dictatorial, incompetent fuck-ups as any male. So what exactly would be gained by men "becoming more like women?" > .... Maybe I should take a survey > and see how many people actually thought the question meant "Well, I sure > wish men could be more like women. Why can't they??!!" instead of "Why > don't men feel free to do feminine things in our society?" That is precisely how I understood your comment. I still disagree. There is a Japanese proverb that goes "the nail that sticks out shall be hammered back in." Now EVERY society has similar priciples, even in ones, like that of the US, that nominally value individualism. If one wants to stick out, one must be prepared to get hammered. If one does not wish to get hammered, or one is not able to handle getting hammered, perhaps one should consider not sticking out quite so much. I don't mean to enforce homogeneity. I do mean that if one is not self-confident enough to be different, one should not be different. To say it yet another way, I don't consider it my problem if some guy does not feel free to do feminine things. I will not prevent him from doing them, but ultimately, *he* has to be comfortable enough with himself to do whatever it is he wants to do, and be proud of doing it. -- Marcel-Franck Simon ihnp4!{mhuxr, hl3b5b}!mfs " Sot pa touye'-ou, li fe`-ou sue' "
wildstar@nmtvax.UUCP (10/29/85)
Fellers:
It would seem that a woman capable of attaining such an ideal ( 150 IQ,
glamor, and all the rest as per previous articles ), would either :
1) Be so powerful and self-sufficient as to not want or need a man.
2) Be a figment of Madison Avenue.
3) Would choose not to associate with the common crowd, instead being
a millionaire's or politician's plaything. Us poor slobs, such
as compunerds, blue-collars, military, and the backbone of male
society, are too low to possibly deserve such unnattainable beauty
(-: (-: (-:
So let's get with it. Why don't we talk about average women and men with an
average paycheck, with average expectations? We can still discuss a wide range
of issues and moralities by concentrating on ordinary aspects of living. This
is what modern society is all about... the grass roots, rather than hoi polloi!
Andrew Jonathan Fine
(Wildstar)wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (10/30/85)
In article <839@nmtvax.UUCP> wildstar@nmtvax.UUCP (Andrew Fine) writes: > It would seem that a woman capable of attaining such an ideal ( 150 IQ, >glamor, and all the rest as per previous articles ), would either : >[Extract:] > 3) Would choose not to associate with the common crowd, instead being > a millionaire's or politician's plaything. Why, pray, would such a superior being choose to be ANYONE'S "plaything"? They might choose to BE a "millionaire" or a "politician", or maybe get more satisfaction [and less hassle] by being a "power behind the throne", but I think "plaything" status would rapidly bore such a woman. "Plaything" has poor connotations for this usage; I think I would have let "playmate" pass uncommented-upon, though. That has much fewer overtones of ownership and dependency. Will
seb@mtgzz.UUCP (s.e.badian) (10/31/85)
>> me > Marcel Simon >> .... The reality is that in business women and minorities have >> to follow the same rules that men follow. >> .... But again I have to ask "If you, as a man, find the rules >> unfair, and know that other men feel the same way, why don't you try to >> change the rules?" ... >> why after so many years of male dominination in business, are you complaining >> about something that men, as a group, could change if they wanted to? >> And don't ask me how! Groups of individuals have significant clout >> in our society. And considering the power, money and influence that men, >> as a group, have, it seems absurd to think that they can't change the >> rules under which they operate. It seems obvious to me that most men >> either like the current set of rules, are ambilivalent, or have given up >> trying. >First, a group's power is a in direct proportion to how unified the group >is in support of specific issues. Such a consensus does not exist in favor >of the changes you speak of. Therefore you just proved my statement that the majority of men support the current rules, are ambilvalent, or gave up trying to change them (presumably because there are so few who want to change the rules). This seems to show that the men who have posted to net.women complain- ing about society's oppressive rules are merely a small minority. I guess it is up to the women to change the rules then. >Second, recognition that something is not perfect does not imply that >a proposed alternative is better. For example, capitalism is deeply flawed, >founded as it is on greed canceling out greed. Considering the practice of >proposed alternatives, however, I'll stick to it. What is the proposed alternative to men not showing weakness and emotion? Showing some weakness and emotion. Social conditioning must be very strong to keep men's emotions bottled up and keep them from showing weakness. What is so hideous about this alternative? Just the fact that it isn't the norm yet? We are talking about a society that gives men more freedom to express themselves. We're not talking about making men into women. >Third, what is your alternative? Before you answer that question, ask >*yourself* if *you* would vote for a male presidential candidate who >wore earrings. Depends on his qualifications, now doesn't it? I don't judge a person's ability to do a job by what he/she wears. My alternative is to not judge other people according to superficial things like dress. >Finally, the limited sample we have (Imelda Marcos, Margaret Thatcher, >Michele Bennett Duvalier, Isabelita Peron, etc. among contemporaries; Catherine >the Great, Messalina, Marie-Antoinette, etc. among historical figures) proves >rather conclusively that women are as likely to be dictatorial, incompetent >fuck-ups as any male. So what exactly would be gained by men "becoming >more like women?" What is this preccupation with "men becoming more like women?" That's not what I said. I've said it twice. I would have thought you would have grasped what I meant by now. I said men should have the freedom to express their feminine sides, if they are so inclined. I'm talking about giving men more freedom. That's what they have to gain. >To say it yet another way, I don't consider it my problem if some guy >does not feel free to do feminine things. I will not prevent him from doing >them, but ultimately, *he* has to be comfortable enough with himself to >do whatever it is he wants to do, and be proud of doing it. Maybe I should ask you the same question you asked me - would you vote for a male presidential candidate if he wore earrings? If the thought of other men breaking out of the male stereotype doesn't bother you, then you are not standing in the way of these men. The problem is with people who think there is something seriously wrong with a man who cries (witness what happened to Muskie when he cried), a man who wants to become a nurse or a florist instead of a football star. The man taking the abuse may be proud of what he is doing, and may feel that he is doing the right thing. But, if he gets no support, his fight will be a very short one. Sharon Badian ihnp4!mtgzz!seb