thoma@reed.UUCP (Ann Muir Thomas) (01/20/86)
(BTW, I am cross posting this, since I feel that the subject matter is appropriate to both net.singles and net.women.) (The original article was about a mid-30's woman who was discovering that a good career alone is not enough for happiness.) Many times I have wondered what I am giving up in terms of friends/family in order to pursue a degree & career (hopefully) in psychology. When I escape the ivory tower at age 27 or so, will I have found that life has passed me by? What I so often find missing in my life is love, and far too many of the people in my environment "don't have the time" for "silly" things like relationships, long talks, closeness etc., yet they complain about being lonely. Phone conversations and e-mail with friends who are at a distance can only do so much. As a woman, I feel that I face more difficulties in this area. One is: are there any men out there who would "follow" me around for the next 5 years until I complete my education? I had a long talk with one of my professors about the nature of relationships in academia, and he concluded, sadly, that women seem much more willing to "follow" their (male) SOs, perhaps because men are expected to have "better" careers than women. He admitted that his own wife had "followed" him, and regretted having harmed her academic career in this way. (they are "gypsy professors" who basically move from visiting assistantship to visiting assistantship, and he has been the one to get offered jobs.). I know what it's like to leave an SO behind when I return to college-- *very* painful; so far, college has won out, but I don't know how many more times I am going to go through breakups caused by "situational" factors. Sometimes life is a bitch. Ann Muir Thomas ************************************************************* "If I could throw these lifeless lifelines to the winds/leave this heart of clay/and watch you walk away/into the night/and into the rain/into the half-lights/ and into the fray...." --U2
cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl) (01/21/86)
In article <2340@reed.UUCP> thoma@reed.UUCP (Ann Muir Thomas) writes: > >(The original article was about a mid-30's woman who was discovering that >a good career alone is not enough for happiness.) > >Many times I have wondered what I am giving up in terms of friends/family >in order to pursue a degree & career (hopefully) in psychology. When I >escape the ivory tower at age 27 or so, will I have found that life has passed >me by? What I so often find missing in my life is love, and far too many >of the people in my environment "don't have the time" for "silly" things... It's better than realizing at age 37 or so that your marriage is a truly "silly" thing, and that, since you gave up your economic independence for this wonderful thing called love, that your're going to spend the rest of your life broke, divorced AND lonely. If you opt for the job, you're only lonely. A good career may not be enough for happiness, but throwing yourself away on some man isn't going to make you happy either. Cheryl
debray@sbcs.UUCP (Saumya Debray) (01/23/86)
>>What I so often find missing in my life is love, and far too many >>of the people in my environment "don't have the time" for "silly" things... > > It's better than realizing at age 37 or so that your marriage is a > truly "silly" thing, and that, since you gave up your economic > independence for this wonderful thing called love, that your're going > to spend the rest of your life broke, divorced AND lonely. If you > opt for the job, you're only lonely. A good career may not be enough > for happiness, but throwing yourself away on some man isn't going to > make you happy either. > > Cheryl Of course, if you begin with the premise that love is a "truly silly thing", it'll probably end up being self-fulfilling. Until then, try explaining to the sad and lonely successes how economically astute their career decisions were. In some naive, idealistic way, I believe that happiness and peace of mind are worth more, in the long run, than riches and fame. I'd rather die poor-and-happy than rich-and-miserable (though being happy-and-rich has its advantages, to be sure! :-). For this reason, I just can't understand reasoning along the lines of "Well, love and marriage just possibly might not work out, so why risk it? let's hack careers instead". -- Saumya Debray SUNY at Stony Brook uucp: {allegra, hocsd, philabs, ogcvax} !sbcs!debray arpa: debray%suny-sb.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa CSNet: debray@sbcs.csnet
tron@fluke.UUCP (Peter Barbee) (01/24/86)
Cheryl Stewart writes; >It's better than realizing at age 37 or so that your marriage is a >truly "silly" thing, and that, since you gave up your economic >independence for this wonderful thing called love, that your're going >to spend the rest of your life broke, divorced AND lonely. If you >opt for the job, you're only lonely. A good career may not be enough >for happiness, but throwing yourself away on some man isn't going to >make you happy either. And I wanted to throw myself away on some women...:-) But seriously, we (especially me) need a little bit more optimism than this, don't we? I think the important part is to refrain from financial dependence. In today's society it is more common for women to become financially dependent but men can do it too. Personally, I figure the next time I get married (probably not a legal marriage, but my personal realization of marriage) it will be to a women who will not become dependent on me. Why? First, there are less women willing to do that, second I don't ususlly like them anyway. We all know many aspects of today's stereotypical roles suck the big one, but don't we also see some light, some change? If we give up on marriage the institution will die, wouldn't it better to redefine societies expectations of marriage? I know, I know, this has all been said before but I had just read about 7 positive postings in a row and it felt so good... Peter B ihnp4!uw-beaver!fluke!tron
cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl) (01/27/86)
In article <39@sbcs.UUCP> debray@sbcs.UUCP (Saumya Debray) writes: >>>What I so often find missing in my life is love, and far too many >>>of the people in my environment "don't have the time" for "silly" things... >> >> It's better than realizing at age 37 or so that your marriage is a >> truly "silly" thing, and that, since you gave up your economic >> independence for this wonderful thing called love, that your're going >> to spend the rest of your life broke, divorced AND lonely. If you >> opt for the job, you're only lonely. A good career may not be enough >> for happiness, but throwing yourself away on some man isn't going to >> make you happy either. >> >> Cheryl > >Of course, if you begin with the premise that love is a "truly silly thing", >it'll probably end up being self-fulfilling. Until then, try explaining to >the sad and lonely successes how economically astute their career decisions >were. Look, lonliness does not necessarily accompany a career. If people are lonely, do they say, "yeah, I should have never worked for a living and pinned all of my economic security on someone else, just to 'be happy' "? Just try talking to the broke and lonely single mothers in this world who opted for "happiness." There's a lot more of them than these mythical sad and rich types (and I have very little sympathy for people who say "money can't buy happiness" -- it's their fault if they don't know where to shop!) > >In some naive, idealistic way, I believe that happiness and peace of mind >are worth more, in the long run, than riches and fame. I'd rather die >poor-and-happy than rich-and-miserable (though being happy-and-rich has its >advantages, to be sure! :-). Happiness & peace of mind, in the long run, is not to be portrayed as the sole domain of married, non-working women. Remember the suicide rate for married women. >For this reason, I just can't understand >reasoning along the lines of "Well, love and marriage just possibly might >not work out, so why risk it? let's hack careers instead". That's not the reasoning. As long as women refuse to take responsibility for their own happiness and fulfillment and economic security, seeking all of these things to be taken care of by somebody else, will women be unhappy. The MYTH that "love & marriage" is the key to a woman's happiness is a LIE. If you're not critically-minded enough to cut through the myths and look around you, then that's your problem. Cheryl
cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl) (01/27/86)
In article <1364@vax1.fluke.UUCP> tron@fluke.UUCP (Peter Barbee) writes: > >We all know many aspects of today's stereotypical roles suck the big one, >but don't we also see some light, some change? If we give up on marriage >the institution will die, wouldn't it better to redefine societies >expectations of marriage? > Which societies are we going to change first? The DAR? the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign's "Women's Club"? That will be a challenge. How would you like it if your SO's boss's wife told you that if you didn't join the "Women's club" you would probably damage your SO's career (and of course your only source of livelihood or happiness and fulfillment)? How would you like it if your faculty advisor at University of Chicago assumed you were *not* serious about making a career of your research, just because you happened to be married? How would you like to deal with male graduate students who tell you that you ought to be having children by now (instead of competing successfully with them for grades & grants)? How would you like to, in addition to putting all your effort into proving your worth, and enjoying your work to it's fullest, finding that your advisor asks you to babysit for his kids "
greenber@phri.UUCP (Ross Greenberg) (01/30/86)
In article <...> cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP () bitches: > > ... How would > you like to, in addition to putting all your effort into > proving your worth, and enjoying your work to it's fullest, > finding that your advisor asks you to babysit for his > kids " > Someone asked you to babysit for their kids? I guess they don't like their kids too much..... -- ------ ross m. greenberg ihnp4!allegra!phri!sysdes!greenber [phri rarely makes a guest-account user a spokesperson. Especially not me.]
terry@nrcvax.UUCP (Terry Grevstad) (01/31/86)
cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP () says: >In article <2340@reed.UUCP> thoma@reed.UUCP (Ann Muir Thomas) writes: >>(The original article was about a mid-30's woman who was discovering that >>a good career alone is not enough for happiness.) >.... throwing yourself away on some man isn't going to >make you happy either. > >Cheryl "throwing yourself away on some man"???? Excuse me, but I must take exception. Marrying because you *love* someone and he *loves* you, is not "throwing yourself away." To me it represents the obvious next step in a maturing individual. After taking the step from childhood into adulthood, and learning how to handle yourself, your individuality, your decisions, your finances, your life, the next step is learning how to mesh those things with someone else's--the true give and take of two individuals interacting. The real proving ground for that kind of knowledge, maturity and commitment is marriage. Granted, if you're not ready for that step DON'T TAKE IT! But if you've mastered the rest and you are more than ready to move on, you are going to continue to be unhappy until you do. The key here is finding a partner who is also ready to move on to the next step. Cheryl, I'm sorry you got burned, but the same fire that burned you is keeping me toasty warm and happy. So I don't think you have the right to put it out. ************* FLAME OFF (I guess :-}) *************** -- \"\t\f1A\h'+1m'\f4\(mo\h'+1m'\f1the\h'+1m'\f4\(es\t\f1\c _______________________________________________________________________ Terry Grevstad Network Research Corporation ihnp4!nrcvax!terry {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!terry
moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison ) (02/03/86)
In article <168@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU> cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP () writes: > >It's better than realizing at age 37 or so that your marriage is a >truly "silly" thing, and that, since you gave up your economic >independence for this wonderful thing called love, that your're going >to spend the rest of your life broke, divorced AND lonely. If you >opt for the job, you're only lonely. A good career may not be enough >for happiness, but throwing yourself away on some man isn't going to >make you happy either. > >Cheryl There's no reason why, at age 37, one must make *any* resignations as to how the rest of her/his life is to be spent. New careers can be forged, new friendships made, etc. My mother was left a widow 1.5 years ago, after 35 years of marriage. She had worked outside the home in a pink-collar job for the last fifteen years of the marriage, taking a leave of absence to nurse my father through the final months of his illness. She was not left broke, but she certainly was bereft. In rather rational fashion, she made no far-reaching decisions in the first year after his death. Last fall, at age 58, she started back to school to begin (as a freshman) work toward eventual graduate work in her chosen field. When I finished my undergraduate degree shortly after Dad's death, the following conversation took place. Mom (talking to a 3rd party): "oh, she's going on to grad school next. She'll be the first female Ph.D. in the family." Me: "What about having kids?" (at age 33, it was time to start thinking seriously about this, if I was going to do it). Mom: "I'll take care of the kids, while you go to school". I reminded her of this conversation a couple months ago. Her response was that she had raised *her* family. She wasn't going to live vicariously through me anymore, and if I didn't get busy, *she* would be the first female Ph.D. in the family! Hooray for Mom! Moira Mallison tektronix!moiram
seltzer@dali.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU (Linda &) (02/07/86)
Someone wrote that marrying someone you love isn't "throwing yourself away". The problem is that there are some women who do throw away all autonomy and individuality in order to get married to the man they love. I have met women who have suddenly quit school or a job in order to move in and live with a man (in some cases the men were ambivalent about this, but the women insisted on moving in anyway) who lived far away. I used to share a house with a man, and one day his girlfriend showed up at our door, from LONDON, and moved in! ... with no real notice. She brought her clothes and some personal effects, and just left the rest of her stuff in her dorm room in London. She just stayed at our house all the time and did housework, trying to get him to marry her, and it took him six months to get her to move out! And this was an architect! This is a little bit of an extreme case, but some women feel really desperate to get married, whatever sacrifice it may take, and it's this attitude that Cheryl and others think is ridiculous.
debray@sbcs.UUCP (Saumya Debray) (02/10/86)
> Someone wrote that marrying someone you love isn't "throwing yourself > away". The problem is that there are some women who do throw away > all autonomy and individuality in order to get married to the man they > love. I have met women who have suddenly quit school or a job in order > to move in and live with a man ... > ... some women feel really desperate to get married, whatever sacrifice > it may take, and it's this attitude that Cheryl and others think is > ridiculous. Seems to me it's a matter of personal choice: after all, we _are_ talking about adults! Different people derive happiness from different things. Isn't it rather presumptuous to claim exclusive access to some sort of universal truth? -- Saumya Debray SUNY at Stony Brook uucp: {allegra, hocsd, philabs, ogcvax} !sbcs!debray arpa: debray%suny-sb.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa CSNet: debray@sbcs.csnet