hankb@teklds.UUCP (Hank Buurman) (02/20/86)
Well, it was a long time coming, but here is the summary of responses to my posting on female sexuality in sf/fantasy. The responses were not numerous (25), but were extremely interesting in that a lot of them were from some of the most thoughtful net posters. They also exhibited a wide geographical origin: United Kingdom, Sweden, El Salvador, Australia, and of course, the United States. As no one requested anonymity, I've included login names with quotes. CAUTION, I found out you can't infer gender by login handle. Several contributers revealed their sexual orientation, but I feel it would be a violation of net ethics to do that in this summary, so I've tried to keep that confidential. I've also limited the quotes to the first three questions. Questions 4-7 were sort of ho-hum to the responders and by and large a matter of indifference. So in the interest of brevity, I'll assume the same attitude. Also, due to length, I'm going to post the responses in three seperate postings. Thanks to all for some interesting correspondence. Enjoy. I did. >>Subject: Women in sf/fantasy >>Keywords: The new sexuality? >> There has been a great deal of discussion/debate in this group, >>and others about feminist Science Fiction writers, and strong female >>protaganists created by authors of either gender. As I find the whole >>subject of human sexuality fascinating, I have followed the discussion >>and read many of the authors mentioned such as Russ, Bradley, Lynn, etc. >>I must say that I have enjoyed each of their works very much. >>But it seems that a euphemism for "strong female protaganist" in their >>works, and in the various postings, is "Lesbian Protaganist" or >>"Bisexual Protaganist". >> OK. That doesn't bother me because some of the most interesting >>and intelligent women I have known in my life have been lesbian, or bi. >>I personally feel that a women's sexual preferences are part of her psyche, >>and immaterial (unless she's a sexual partner of mine) to our rapport. >>However, I seem to be finding women in science fiction more and more >>(also in general fiction) who are bi/gay. And sometimes unexpectedly by >>non-feminist writers. This gives one pause, and I would like to pose >>some questions to the readers of this group(s). >> >>1. Is this perceived by the majority as the future of female sexuality? >>2. Is this merely a reflection of todays "Bisexual Chic"? >>3. Can a female protaganist be physically/mentally superior to men >>without being bi/gay? >>4. Would you, as a reader, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi? Straight? >>5. Would you, as an author, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi? Straight? >>6. Would you prefer male heros to be gay? Bi? Straight? >>7. Will you continue to read novels about bi/gay female protaganists >>even when plainly detailed on the cover? >>If this topic interests you, answer by e-mail and I will summarize >>to the group(s) in about three or four weeks. **Is this [bisexuality] perceived as the future of female sexuality?** decvax!frog!wjr "Well, I wish I could see bisexuality as the general future,.... ...That is, bisexuality is, to me, normal in a way that heterosexuality/homosexuality isn't. I don't care whether a person is concave or convex, just whether SHe's good people. I wish I could believe that would someday become the norm, but I don't see it happening this week...." quint@caip(amqueue) "I do not know if one can even use the term `future of sexuality'. It seems an excessively artificial concept"..... ...."I dont think one can talk about the future of sexuality except in terms of the future of one individual's sexuality. It seems to me to be the next part of society to need a `breakthrough' in ideas and the freedom to talk about such things." ellen@reed "....The vast majority of the world is still quite homophobic; even if you are talking only about the US this is true. I hope it becomes a more accepted option, but at the moment I do not perceive it to be an inevitable progression for all women, only for certain individuals." Mary_Couse.osbunorth@caip "I don't think so. I believe that women probably have an easier time being bi- than men do, but most of the women I've known who call themselves bi have a much stronger leaning towards being gay." ccrdave@vega "I don't like any bi/gay stuff. I prefer logical, intelligent characters of all races, colors, planets of origon, etc., but I just don't like `that sick stuff.' I think a woman can be intelligent and straight. Just work at it." chuck@purdue "No. I think lesbians (and gay men) are appearing more in literature simply because they are becoming more visible in our society. Homosexuality is no longer something which simply isn't mentioned in `polite society,' as it once was. Changes such as this in society are noticed by authors and become part of those authors' works. Personally, I do not expect society to accept lesbianism or bisexuality as `THE' female sexuality (at least not in the foreseeable future). Whether the authors beleive that this is `the future of female sexuality' or not I can't say." davidl@teklds "I doubt it. I think it's just a quick way for an author to label a female character as `not just an old-fashioned girl'". kay@warwick "Not necessarily. However, I imagine (and hope) that it will become increasingly easy for women (and men) to live happily with a non-hetero sexuality." flory@zaphod "I, for one, think it is the future of *human* sexuality." continued Hank Buurman ihnp4!tektronix!tekla!hankb ================================================= "I'm not in the business....I am the business." -- Rachel, Nexus6 Replicant, Experimental =================================================
hankb@teklds.UUCP (Hank Buurman) (02/20/86)
(summary continued)
**Is this (female gay/bisexuality in sf/fantasy) merely a reflection
of todays "Bisexual Chic"?**
barb@oliveb
"Yep. (The pendulum swings to an extreme before its influence can be
felt in the middle.)"
Mary_Couse.osbunorth@caip
"Not merely, though I think that may be a large part of the picture.
I will say that a lot of men seem to find bi-sexual activity on the part
of women rather stimulating - open any issue of Penthouse if you doubt
this."
davidl@teklds
"Perhaps. Also, many men are turned on by lesbians, paradoxical as that may
seem. Even Playboy (the most conservative of America's skin-pix mags) has had
somewhat explicit pictures of lesbian sex."
ellen@reed
"Good grief. I certainly hope not. It is unfortunate that many
lesbians now coming out are accused of succumbing to "bisexual
chic," but I think it is more a reflection of increased
awareness of bisexuality on the part of authors and audiences,
not necessarily increased popularity."
kay@warwick
"Possibly. I hear people say that they consider bisexuality to be "trendy", to
be a "soft option" (for gay people who don't want to come out as gay), but I'm
not sure how much those statements reflect the existence of a real "bisexual
chic", as opposed to those people's apprehensions about bisexuality."
li@uw-vlsi
"I think that, at this moment, people are just discovering that
side of sexuality and all the following developments that go with
them. I think that it may be a trend, as in trendy, but I think that it
will slow up eventually; but at the moment authors are exploring the
possibilities."
**Can a female protaganist be physically/mentally superior to men
without being bi/gay?**
quint@caip
"I imagine it is possible. I dont usually notice the sexuality of the
protagonist unless I am looking for it... I dont worry about those things.
Some authors seem to slap you in the face with it... Elizabeth Lynn for
example... her collection "The Woman Who Loved The Moon" was the first book
I ever really noticed that the protagonist was bi/gay, and I remember
wondering "why should it make a difference?" The fact is, it doesnt if it
isnt made obvious... I never batted an eye when Lythande (from Thieves'
World) wandered off with a girl.
I think part of the cause of this is that many of the obvious role
models for female protagonists in modern society have been bi/gay...
especially in the literary fields. The 'strong' women definitely have
female lovers, whether or not that is their primary orientation. (from what
I have heard about men in the publishing/literary fields, it is probably
because they cant find anyone decent.)"
kay@warwick
"In my opinion, certainly! To me, the question (and I'm not getting at you
here) is about as meaningful as `Can a female protagonist be ... superior to
men without having blue eyes?'"
ellen@reed
"It's difficult, I think. However, it can be done; witness C.L.
Moore's Jirel of Joiry stories, Gilman's Herland novels, Anne
McCaffrey's Killashandra and Helva, and some of the Zelazny
heroines. I think it's much harder to write heterosexual strong
women at this point in time, since so much of sexuality relates
to a conquest metaphor."
chk@purdue
"Yes. However, I think that certain authors do not know this. As a side
note, it may also be that editors/copyreaders/whoever think that strong,
straight women would not be accepted by the readers (that's us, gang). If
so, this would put a lot of pressure on writers to make their heroines
bi/gay/androgynous."
Mary_Couse.osbunorth@caip
"I certainly hope so!! Look at "Clan of the Cave Bear" and "Valley
of the Horses" for a wonderfully strong, straight female character.
There may be a few other problems with these books, but the main female
character is strongly drawn and quite straight."
davidl@teklds
"Of course (in my opinion). Example: Mary Lou Retton manages to be an athletic
superstar and a symbol of down-home femininity. However, the question is
weighted. The phrase "superior to men" implies that ALL men are inferior to
this protagonist. A woman who considers herself "superior to (all) men" would
be very likely to become bi/gay, or at least misanthropic."
flory@zaphod
"This is obviously a flawed generality but widely held nevertheless."
Continued
Hank Buurman Tektronix Inc. ihnp4!tektronix!tekla!hankb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Firey, the angels fell. Deep thunder rolled 'round
their shores, burning with the fires of Orc."
-- Roy Baty, Nexus 6, Combat Model, N6MAA10816
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~hankb@teklds.UUCP (Hank Buurman) (02/20/86)
**General comments of interest.** barb@oliveb "..I was irritated by Elizabeth Lynn's work, because I felt she was beating me over the head with her gay is ok characters. Personally, I DON'T CARE! It was not integral to the plot -- let the story tell itself, don't PROVE into the ground an aside point." davidl@teklds >>7. Will you continue to read novels about bi/gay female protaganists >> even when plainly detailed on the cover? "Yes. Actually, I think the whole idea of labeling the type of sex in the book can, if taken to extremes, lead to silly labels like this: +-----------------------------------------------------+ | | | WARNING | | | | Contains descriptions of sexual activities | | | | [] Heterosexual [] Homosexual | | [] Interracial [] Interspecies | | [] Oral [] Anal | | [] Bestiality [] Bondage | | [] Sadism [] Masochism | | [] Fetishism [] Voyeurism | | []_________________ []_________________ | | | | If you are offended by any of the acts indicated | | by checked boxes, do not purchase this book. | | | :-) +-----------------------------------------------------+ I'm sure that some people out there would even consider this label offensive. I think that there's someone bound to be offended by ANYTHING you can put in a book, and it's not the publisher's responsibility to explain exactly what's in each book. That's what reviewers are for. There are even specialized reviewers in publications directed to parents and conservative people, dedicated to pointing out material these people might find offensive (presumably so they can avoid it). Not afraid to sign my name, but with tongue firmly implanted in cheek: [ommitted] ellen@reed **Would you, as a reader, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi? Straight?** "I prefer that the possibility of alternate sexuality exist. However, I do not need the heroine to *have* an active sexual life in order to enjoy a book. Since there are rather more strong bi/gay heroines, I often end up reading about them. That's perfectly fine. What I *really* hate is heroines like Heinlein's who start out strong and end up clinging and screaming. What a waste of a good character." jody@inuxd "The female protagonist, I would like is well educated but not a brain, is straight but not victumized but men nor having casual sex here and there. She is motivated but has to work around the system in some way-- creatively (sex is out too boring). In a sence a normal female. Well normal may not be a good work--what is normal?? But nothing special about her except her own personality, that way when she does something in the story it really seems wonderful. I guess it is because I think gee maybe I could be like that one day...or... I will never be superwoman if for no other reason then I am to small in stacher, and I can not believe in a universe that would make unfeminin females." [login name ommitted. -ed.] >5. Would you, as an author, prefer your heroines be gay? Bi? Straight? "This is tricky. I'm a male bisexual author: as such, I'm exposed to many facets of women's sexuality: I may sleep with straight/bi women; I raise my consciousness with women of all preferences; and so on. However, I'm not a woman: this (I find) makes writing about the intimate (not necessarily *sexually* intimate) experiences of women difficult. It's not very often, therefore, that I write about them (though I'm doing so increasingly), and not because of any separatist feeling." li@fluke "Interesting article. As for most of the questions, I'll give the simple answer "It depends on the character." Just as I would withhold judging a person if I were just given their sexual preferance. There is a lot of fascination with the complexities involved with sex of any kind, and the twist of bi- or homo- sexuality is sometimes fun and filled with all the connotations of the words. But I really don't think that a woman has to be bi- or lesbian just because she is stonger mentally or physically than a lot of men." and ...."I think that, at this moment, people are just discovering that side of sexuality and all the following developments that go with them. I think that it may be a trend, as in trendy, but I think that it will slow up eventually; but at the moment authors are exploring the possibilities." END My deepest thanks to: STella Calvert Anne Marie Quint Barb Jernigan Chuck Koelbel Mary Couse David D. Levine Ellen Eades Liralen Li Charlie Sorsby Trevor K. Flory And other contributers whom I was unable to identify. Shalom Hank Buurman Hank Buurman Tektronix Inc. ihnp4!tektonix!tekla!hankb ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you have burned so very very brightly, Roy". -- Dr. Tyrell, Tyrell Corp. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~