gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) (02/15/86)
The following article is reprinted (without permission) from the
Friday 14 Feb 1986 San Francisco Chronicle in its entirety.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Behind Jewish Princess Jokes"
by Michael Taylor
Q: What does a Jewish American Princess make for dinner?
A: Reservations.
A Berkeley professor who studied thousands of Jewish American Princess
jokes over the past five years has concluded that such jokes are an attack
on women and feminism.
Alan Dundes, a professor of folklore at the University of California,
said young Jewish women are depicted as selfish brats because the tellers
of the jokes may feel "threatened" by feminism.
Dundes reported on his study in the current issue of the Journal of
American Folklore.
In such jokes, popular in the United States since the late 1970s, the
Jewish American Princess hates to eat, loves to shop and rarely agrees
to have sex with her husband. "Why does a Jewish American Princess close
her eyes during sex? So she can pretend she is shopping."
The professor discounted widely held theories that such jokes are anti-
Semitic. He found, instead, that the jokes are anti-women.
"I suspect that the jokes may be a reflection of anti-feminism," said
Dundes. "(They) came into favor at a time when women's liberation and
feminist ideology were becoming increasingly well known and may have been
regarded as threatening by old-order male chauvinists."
Many of the jokes were sexually explicit. One of the most well-known
suggests that, to keep a Jewish girl from making love, you marry her.
"From the mail point of view," Dundes wrote, "the (Jewish American
Princess) represents the modern woman who wants to be taken care of
but who doesn't want to cook or participate willingly in sexual inter-
course. She seems to be all take and no give! This may be why some
of the ... joke texts project what appears to be unadulterated male
misogynistic hostility."
Dundes, a noted authority on contemporary American folklore, also
found that the princess cannot "be understood in isolation from the
Jewish American Mother."
Dundes' sources for his report include such disparate volumes as
"The American Journal of Orthopsychiatry," "Portnoy's Complaint,"
"Gross Jokes," "Totally Gross Jokes," "Utterly Gross Jokes."
The 59 scholarly citations in the study range from "Unreal Humor of
the Kugel and Bagel" to "The Culture of the Shtetl."
The professor found what such storytellers as Myron Cohen and Jackie
Mason have been telling audiences for years in less august terms: that
the Jewish mother is "overly solicitous of her children's welfare
(especially her son's health)" and wants "her daughters to marry well
(preferably doctors or lawyers)."
What she frequently gets for a child is the Jewish American Princess,
who "is spoiled, and spoiled rotten," Dundes wrote.
"What is a Jewish American Princess' favorite wine?" "I wanna go to
Hawaii."
In the end, Dundes finds that this all "is much more than a Jewish
issue."
The Jewish mother can be "any American mother ignorant of the possible
ill effects of overindulging her children," just as any "indulged child-
ren ... may grow up to be Jewish American Princesses."
The article, incidentally, is dedicated to Dundes' "Jewish mother and
my two Jewish American Princess daughters."
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
ucbvax!weyl!gsmith "When Ubizmo talks, people listen."rcj@burl.UUCP (Curtis Jackson) (02/18/86)
In article <11871@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: > > The following article is reprinted (without permission) from the >Friday 14 Feb 1986 San Francisco Chronicle in its entirety. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Behind Jewish Princess Jokes" > by Michael Taylor > > Q: What does a Jewish American Princess make for dinner? > A: Reservations. > > A Berkeley professor who studied thousands of Jewish American Princess >jokes over the past five years has concluded that such jokes are an attack >on women and feminism. > Hmmmm, that's odd. I love JAP jokes, but the various women I tell them to invariably love them even more. The reason I almost always hear from them is "Oh, yes; I went to school with so many of them and they were such a joke!" They see the JAP as almost everything that they themselves do not want to be: non-self-sufficient, manipulative, whiny, spoiled, cold (both in sexual and non-sexual relations), etc. etc. That is *my* uneducated but well-researched opinion on why both men and women enjoy JAP jokes -- they are laughing at something that they would sooner die than be like, yet there are tendencies toward most JAP traits (as told in the jokes) in every one of us -- yielding one of (if not the) most important facet of successful humor: the ability of the audience to empathize somewhat with the butt of the joke. Waiting for all of the "speak for yourself!" letters, -- The MAD Programmer -- 919-228-3313 (Cornet 291) alias: Curtis Jackson ...![ ihnp4 ulysses cbosgd mgnetp ]!burl!rcj ...![ ihnp4 cbosgd akgua masscomp ]!clyde!rcj
jeffw@midas.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (02/19/86)
In article <11871@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) writes: > > The following article is reprinted (without permission) from the >Friday 14 Feb 1986 San Francisco Chronicle in its entirety. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Behind Jewish Princess Jokes" > by Michael Taylor > > > Alan Dundes, a professor of folklore at the University of California, >said young Jewish women are depicted as selfish brats because the tellers >of the jokes may feel "threatened" by feminism. It's possible, I suppose (anything's possible), that JAP's are depicted this way because the tellers *do* feel threatened, but I very much doubt if they are depicted that way because the tellers *may* feel threatened. I *do* hope, for Mr. Dundes's sake, that this is a Chroniclism and not an original quote. Jeff Winslow "Attention, net.jokes readers..."
ed@mtxinu.UUCP (Ed Gould) (02/20/86)
> Gene Ward Smith: >> A Berkeley professor who studied thousands of Jewish American Princess >>jokes over the past five years has concluded that such jokes are an attack >>on women and feminism. Curtis Jackson: >Hmmmm, that's odd. I love JAP jokes, but the various women I tell them >to invariably love them even more. ... > >That is *my* uneducated but well-researched opinion on why both men and >women enjoy JAP jokes -- they are laughing at something that they would >sooner die than be like, yet there are tendencies toward most JAP traits >(as told in the jokes) in every one of us -- yielding one of (if not the) >most important facet of successful humor: the ability of the audience >to empathize somewhat with the butt of the joke. It seems to me that you're actually making the point above, even though that doesn't appear to be what you intend. I suspect that the women you describe are laughing at tendencies that they see in themselves that they would like to *deny*. Just because you find women laughing at sexist jokes doesn't mean that they (the jokes and the women) aren't sexist. Some of the most anti-X jokes I've ever heard have been told by Xs. For *all* X (that tell jokes). -- Ed Gould mt Xinu, 2910 Seventh St., Berkeley, CA 94710 USA {ucbvax,decvax}!mtxinu!ed +1 415 644 0146 "A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality."
jeffw@midas.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (02/21/86)
In article <529@mtxinu.UUCP> ed@mtxinu.UUCP (Ed Gould) writes: > Just because you find women laughing >at sexist jokes doesn't mean that they (the jokes and the women) aren't >sexist. Some of the most anti-X jokes I've ever heard have been told >by Xs. For *all* X (that tell jokes). I don't understand. Are you trying to imply that Jews who tell the Jew- and-pizza joke are anti-semitic? And more importantly, that they shouldn't tell it? Jeff Winslow "Why do you hate me?" - Socrates
debray@sbcs.UUCP (Saumya Debray) (02/22/86)
> In such jokes, popular in the United States since the late 1970s, the > Jewish American Princess hates to eat, loves to shop and rarely agrees > to have sex with her husband. "Why does a Jewish American Princess close > her eyes during sex? So she can pretend she is shopping." > > "I suspect that the jokes may be a reflection of anti-feminism," said > Dundes. "(They) came into favor at a time when women's liberation and > feminist ideology were becoming increasingly well known and may have been > regarded as threatening by old-order male chauvinists." My impression was that JAP jokes poked fun at people so engrossed with themselves that they had no time for others (I've encountered some like that). The stereotypical JAP lavishes immense amounts of attention on objects (especially those pertaining to her physical appearance, e.g. her nail polish), but can't find any time for other _people_. This narcissism suggests that the JAP hasn't quite grown up, which seems to be borne out by the numerous jokes where the JAP runs to Daddy whenever something has to be done. -- Saumya Debray SUNY at Stony Brook uucp: {allegra, hocsd, philabs, ogcvax} !sbcs!debray arpa: debray%suny-sb.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa CSNet: debray@sbcs.csnet
SofPasuk@imagen.UUCP (Munach Rvi'i) (02/23/86)
> > Gene Ward Smith: > >> A Berkeley professor who studied thousands of Jewish American Princess > >>jokes over the past five years has concluded that such jokes are an attack > >>on women and feminism. > > Curtis Jackson: > >Hmmmm, that's odd. I love JAP jokes, but the various women I tell them > >to invariably love them even more. ... > > > >That is *my* uneducated but well-researched opinion on why both men and > >women enjoy JAP jokes -- they are laughing at something that they would > >sooner die than be like, yet there are tendencies toward most JAP traits > >(as told in the jokes) in every one of us -- yielding one of (if not the) > >most important facet of successful humor: the ability of the audience > >to empathize somewhat with the butt of the joke. > > It seems to me that you're actually making the point above, even though > that doesn't appear to be what you intend. I suspect that the women > you describe are laughing at tendencies that they see in themselves > that they would like to *deny*. Just because you find women laughing > at sexist jokes doesn't mean that they (the jokes and the women) aren't > sexist. Some of the most anti-X jokes I've ever heard have been told > by Xs. For *all* X (that tell jokes). > And there will be those who claim that tellers of JAP jokes are anti-semetic. However, one should note that you don't have to be Jewish to be a JAP and that "P" stands for Prince as well as Princess...
tomp@amiga.UUCP (Tom Pohorsky) (02/25/86)
In article <529@mtxinu.UUCP> ed@mtxinu.UUCP (Ed Gould) writes: >> Gene Ward Smith: >>> A Berkeley professor who studied thousands of Jewish American Princess >>>jokes over the past five years has concluded that such jokes are an attack >>>on women and feminism. > >Curtis Jackson: >>Hmmmm, that's odd. I love JAP jokes, but the various women I tell them >>to invariably love them even more. ... >> >>That is *my* uneducated but well-researched opinion on why both men and >>women enjoy JAP jokes -- they are laughing at something that they would >>sooner die than be like, yet there are tendencies toward most JAP traits >>(as told in the jokes) in every one of us -- yielding one of (if not the) >>most important facet of successful humor: the ability of the audience >>to empathize somewhat with the butt of the joke. > >It seems to me that you're actually making the point above, even though >that doesn't appear to be what you intend. I suspect that the women >you describe are laughing at tendencies that they see in themselves >that they would like to *deny*. Just because you find women laughing >at sexist jokes doesn't mean that they (the jokes and the women) aren't >sexist. Some of the most anti-X jokes I've ever heard have been told >by Xs. For *all* X (that tell jokes). I think it's becoming clear that most of the jokee's here are laughing because the jokes are funny, not for the ambitious theories offered. Maybe we should assume that the analysts are twits and/or desperate for a thesys topic. I'm tired of people's attempts to reduce the humor in the world.
ed@mtxinu.UUCP (Ed Gould) (02/27/86)
Me: >> Just because you find women laughing >>at sexist jokes doesn't mean that they (the jokes and the women) aren't >>sexist. Some of the most anti-X jokes I've ever heard have been told >>by Xs. For *all* X (that tell jokes). Jeff Winslow: >I don't understand. Are you trying to imply that Jews who tell the Jew- >and-pizza joke are anti-semitic? And more importantly, that they shouldn't >tell it? Not at all. Just that because a joke is, e.g., told by a Jew doesn't mean that it's *not* anti-Jewish. I know a joke about a Jew and a Chinese that I like a lot. What's the one about pizza? -- Ed Gould mt Xinu, 2910 Seventh St., Berkeley, CA 94710 USA {ucbvax,decvax}!mtxinu!ed +1 415 644 0146 "A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality."
ed@mtxinu.UUCP (Ed Gould) (02/27/86)
In article <740@amiga.amiga.UUCP> tomp@stella.UUCP (Tom Pohorsky) writes: >I think it's becoming clear that most of the jokee's here are laughing >because the jokes are funny, not for the ambitious theories offered. >Maybe we should assume that the analysts are twits and/or desperate for >a thesys topic. I'm tired of people's attempts to reduce the humor in the >world. I'm not tyring to reduce the humor in the world at all. I find offensive some of the things others find funny. Analysis of the jokes is for the purpose of illustrating just what it is that's offensive. -- Ed Gould mt Xinu, 2910 Seventh St., Berkeley, CA 94710 USA {ucbvax,decvax}!mtxinu!ed +1 415 644 0146 "A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality."
spp@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Stephen P Pope) (02/28/86)
Gene Ward Smith: > A Berkeley professor who studied thousands of Jewish American Princess >jokes over the past five years has concluded that such jokes are an attack >on women and feminism. Are you sure about this???? Unless I'm mistaken, the professor is Alan Dundes and I really doubt he would come to such a conclusion. I've read a couple descriptions of his recent JAP joke work and none of them referred to this conclusion. Maybe he just stated this as a disclaimer or something? steve
gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) (02/28/86)
In article <12085@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> spp@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Stephen P Pope) writes: > > Gene Ward Smith: >> A Berkeley professor who studied thousands of Jewish American Princess >>jokes over the past five years has concluded that such jokes are an attack >>on women and feminism. > >Are you sure about this???? Unless I'm mistaken, the professor >is Alan Dundes and I really doubt he would come to such a >conclusion. I've read a couple descriptions of his recent >JAP joke work and none of them referred to this conclusion. > Of *course* I'm not sure of it -- I read it in the Chronicle! In fact, if you bothered to read the original posting, you noticed it was *nothing but* a quote from there. I leave you to work out the implications. ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 "The *evident* character of this defective cognition of which mathematics is proud, and on which it plumes itself before philosophy, rests solely on the poverty of its purpose and the defectiveness of its stuff, and is therefore of a kind that philosophy must spurn." -- G. W. F. Hegel
ins_apmj@jhunix.UUCP (Patrick M Juola) (03/01/86)
In article <158@midas.UUCP> jeffw@midas.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) writes: >In article <529@mtxinu.UUCP> ed@mtxinu.UUCP (Ed Gould) writes: > >> Just because you find women laughing >>at sexist jokes doesn't mean that they (the jokes and the women) aren't >>sexist. Some of the most anti-X jokes I've ever heard have been told >>by Xs. For *all* X (that tell jokes). > >I don't understand. Are you trying to imply that Jews who tell the Jew- >and-pizza joke are anti-semitic? And more importantly, that they shouldn't >tell it? > Jeff Winslow How *I* read it is that only the Xs can get away with telling anti-X jokes, because anyone else who tells an anti-X joke is a crude, crass, socially acceptable, inconsiderate, egocentric, xenophobic, boorish, cretin (or as it is called colloquially, an "asshole.") If, for instance I were to post to this newsgroup the joke "How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?", I'd have to put the statement "rm mailbox" in my .profile to handle the flames. Proof by demonstration -- how many engineer jokes have been put on the net in net.jokes? Everyone on the net is an engineer and knows that the poster was an engineer, so there aren't any flames about jokes about incompetent and geekish engineers. Let some/*male*/one post a joke about feminists,.... Which is really a pity, since I LIKE anti-X jokes; they're funny! Anyone know any decent 3rd generation Finnish engineer from the far West jokes? Patrick Juola Hopkins Math {Originally from Boise, ID} Q. How many Idahoans does it take to change a light bulb? A: Only one; he simply screws potatoes into the socket until one lights....
abc@brl-smoke.ARPA (Brint Cooper ) (03/03/86)
G Wilson Shafer, Professor Emeretis of The Johns Hopkins University and
an authority on humor pointed out many years ago that a great deal of
humor is related to feelings of superiority of one sort or another.
This, of course, explains much about ethinic jokes, 'moron' jokes, jokes
about politicians, etc.
'JAP' jokes seem funny because of the derision which they heap upon the
daughters of overly-protective Jewish mothers and overly-indulgent
Jewish fathers. (I am NOT Jewish.) That they are sometimes told by
Jewish women does not necessarily refute this; these women may be
laughing at their friends' parents. And, by the way, if a black person
tells a "nigger joke," does that make such a "joke" non-racist? I think
not.
--
Brint Cooper
ARPA: abc@brl.arpa
UUCP: ...{seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!abcbeth@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (JB) (03/10/86)
[Life is just a bowl] In article <2045@jhunix.UUCP> ins_apmj@jhunix.ARPA (Patrick M Juola) writes: >How *I* read it is that only the Xs can get away with telling anti-X jokes, >because anyone else who tells an anti-X joke is a crude, crass, socially >acceptable, inconsiderate, egocentric, xenophobic, boorish, cretin (or as ^ >it is called colloquially, an "asshole.") Yeah, ain't they just? B-} -- --JB ((Just) Beth Christy, U. of Chicago, ..!ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!beth) Be where you are, but go where you're going. Go where you're going, but be where you are.