karen@randvax.UUCP (Karen Isaacson) (02/26/86)
In article <684@rti-sel.UUCP> wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: >In article <251@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU> cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP () writes: > >> No it is not. I've seen male graduate students say >> of a fellow female graduate student, "she should be >> having kids by now." > >Jeez, Cheryl, I've been in graduate school in two disciplines >(environmental sciences and computer science) and I've NEVER heard a >male grad student say anything like that of a female student. And a >grad student who did make a comment like that would have been shouted >down by his fellow students, male and female alike. Maybe these people >were deliberately pulling your chain ... or maybe the graduate >students I've been around are a little more mature than the group you >seem to know. Well, when I was in graduate school a couple of the guys decided I must be sleeping with the TA, my grades were so high! (God forbid I might have been doing the homework & learning the material better than they...) And no one shouted them down when they spread the rumor, either. Perhaps they thought it was funny??? Actually, these guys were quite mature and if I were paranoid, I might think they did this deliberately. (Sounds a little farfetched, to me, though...) The net result was an unfriendly TA, but no damage to my grades. -- Karen Isaacson decvax!randvax!karen karen@rand-unix.arpa
apak@oddjob.UUCP (Adrian Kent) (03/01/86)
In article <64@randvax.UUCP> karen@rand-unix.UUCP (Karen Isaacson) writes: >In article <684@rti-sel.UUCP> wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: >>In article <251@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU> cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP () writes: >>> No it is not. I've seen male graduate students say >>> of a fellow female graduate student, "she should be >>> having kids by now." >>Jeez, Cheryl, I've been in graduate school in two disciplines >>(environmental sciences and computer science) and I've NEVER heard a >>male grad student say anything like that of a female student. And a >>grad student who did make a comment like that would have been shouted >>down by his fellow students, male and female alike. Maybe these people >Well, when I was in graduate school a couple of the guys decided I must be >sleeping with the TA, my grades were so high! (God forbid I might have >been doing the homework & learning the material better than they...) >And no one shouted them down when they spread the rumor, either. >Perhaps they thought it was funny??? Actually, these guys were quite >mature and if I were paranoid, I might think they did this deliberately. I've seen the phenomenenon Karen and Cheryl describe so often I'd almost say it's the norm. There's a world-famous theoretical physicist (you've probably heard of him) who won't take women in his group because he believes they shouldn't do physics. I know others who say they find women 'distracting' in an academic environment, talk about their female students purely in terms their appearance, or simply refuse to take women in the subject seriously. I've seen a thoroughly competent woman physicist teased and ridiculed by men who didn't think she 'fitted in' and didn't want her to stay in the subject. Another man talked about a colleague's "personality, if women have a personality". In other subjects, several of my women friends have had great difficulty being taken seriously by their (mostly male) departments. They are typically brighter and more determined than their colleagues, who don't like this. And the strategy works: two or three of my friends are concluding that the game may not be worth the candle, and considering abandoning their subjects. Don't *necessarily* dismiss (your or others') suspicions as paranoia. In my experience, men are more prone to use this sort of tactic behind womens' backs than directly. NOTE: none of the situations above were at the University of Chicago. Adrian Kent
wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) (03/04/86)
In article <64@randvax.UUCP> karen@rand-unix.UUCP (Karen Isaacson) writes: >Well, when I was in graduate school a couple of the guys decided I must be >sleeping with the TA, my grades were so high! (God forbid I might have >been doing the homework & learning the material better than they...) >And no one shouted them down when they spread the rumor, either. It sounds like the creep factor (CF) among male graduate students may be higher than I thought. :-) In looking back at the various grad students I've known over the years, I have to admit that I've known males whose presence in a department raised the overall CF. Is it any wonder? You get your basic creeps straight out of high school, pump them through four years of specialized education (none of that commie pinko liberal arts stuff for us, buddih!), then stick them straight into grad school where they can spend all their time around other prejudiced and narrow-minded hothouse flowers. There goes the CF straight through the ceiling. Now think of all the creeps who get their phudds and go on to teach new generations of creeps ... :-) OK, I admit it: I overstated the case for the 'reasonable male.' -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly
cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl) (03/04/86)
In article <1220@oddjob.UUCP> apak@oddjob.UUCP (Adrian Kent) writes: >In article <64@randvax.UUCP> karen@rand-unix.UUCP (Karen Isaacson) writes: >>In article <684@rti-sel.UUCP> wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: >>>In article <251@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU> cheryl@batcomputer.UUCP () writes: >>>> No it is not. I've seen male graduate students say >>>> of a fellow female graduate student, "she should be >>>> having kids by now." >>>Jeez, Cheryl, I've been in graduate school in two disciplines >>>(environmental sciences and computer science) and I've NEVER heard a >>>male grad student say anything like that of a female student. Physics, Geophysics, Mathematics & Engineering are traditional and traditionally male-dominated fields. ES and CS are not. >>Well, when I was in graduate school a couple of the guys decided I must be >>sleeping with the TA, my grades were so high! (God forbid I might have >>been doing the homework & learning the material better than they...) >>And no one shouted them down when they spread the rumor, either. >>Perhaps they thought it was funny??? Actually, these guys were quite >>mature and if I were paranoid, I might think they did this deliberately. And I'm sure that the more vociferously you had to object to their bullshit, the more you were labelled as a troublemaker, the more it called attention to their comments (putting you in an even more defensive frame of mind), the more it detracted from your enjoyment of your work (the only good reason for being in grad school anyway), etc. etc. Don't forgive them, because they know god-damned well what they're doing. Turn it around ON them, and accuse them of having HOMOSEXUAL relations with the TA if the TA is male. Jokingly, of course. Ha, Ha. Behind their backs of course. Ha, Ha. > I've seen the phenomenenon Karen and Cheryl describe so often I'd almost >say it's the norm. There's a world-famous theoretical physicist (you've >probably heard of him) who won't take women in his group because he believes >they shouldn't do physics. I know others who say they find women 'distracting' >in an academic environment, talk about their female students purely in terms >their appearance, or simply refuse to take women in the subject seriously. >I've seen a thoroughly competent woman physicist teased and ridiculed by men >who didn't think she 'fitted in' and didn't want her to stay in the subject. >Another man talked about a colleague's "personality, if women have a >personality". In other subjects, several of my women friends have had great >difficulty being taken seriously by their (mostly male) departments. They are >typically brighter and more determined than their colleagues, who don't like >this. And the strategy works: two or three of my friends are concluding that >the game may not be worth the candle, and considering abandoning their >subjects. And then the b**stards throw up their hands and say, "we can't hire any female faculty members because so few women get their PhD's in this field" > Don't *necessarily* dismiss (your or others') suspicions as paranoia. >In my experience, men are more prone to use this sort of tactic behind >womens' backs than directly. > NOTE: none of the situations above were at the University of Chicago. The situation I described took place at the University of Chicago in the Department of Geophysical Sciences. > Adrian Kent
debray@sbcs.UUCP (Saumya Debray) (03/05/86)
> >>> No it is not. I've seen male graduate students say > >>> of a fellow female graduate student, "she should be > >>> having kids by now." > >>Jeez, Cheryl, I've been in graduate school in two disciplines > >>(environmental sciences and computer science) and I've NEVER heard a > >>male grad student say anything like that of a female student. > I've seen the phenomenenon Karen and Cheryl describe so often I'd > almost say it's the norm. Yet another point in the sample space: My experience here at Stony Brook (CS) has been quite positive in that regard. Male and female grad students (and faculty) alike are respected if they know their stuff and interact well with others, not otherwise. If a person says something sensible (or stupid) in a research meeting, it's just as sensible (or stupid) if said by a female as by a male. -- Saumya Debray SUNY at Stony Brook uucp: {allegra, hocsd, philabs, ogcvax} !sbcs!debray arpa: debray%suny-sb.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa CSNet: debray@sbcs.csnet
jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) (03/06/86)
> > There's a world-famous theoretical physicist (you've > probably heard of him) who won't take women in his group because he believes > they shouldn't do physics. > Adrian Kent WHO? I want to know which world-famous theoretical physicist is such a jerk. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) "Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent..." {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff
js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) (03/06/86)
> >>Well, when I was in graduate school a couple of the guys decided I must be > >>sleeping with the TA, my grades were so high! (God forbid I might have > >>been doing the homework & learning the material better than they...) > >>And no one shouted them down when they spread the rumor, either. > >>Perhaps they thought it was funny??? Actually, these guys were quite > >>mature and if I were paranoid, I might think they did this deliberately. I'm curious as to how you can describe the above individuals as 'quite mature'. Your description of what they did makes them sound quite juvenile. -- Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j
jackson@curium.DEC (SETH JACKSON 297-4751) (03/08/86)
>I've seen a thoroughly competent woman physicist teased and ridiculed by men >who didn't think she 'fitted in' and didn't want her to stay in the subject. >Another man talked about a colleague's "personality, if women have a >personality". In other subjects, several of my women friends have had great >difficulty being taken seriously by their (mostly male) departments. They are >typically brighter and more determined than their colleagues, who don't like >this. My SO (gag, I hate that word!) works in an environment largely dominated by men, and experiences a significant amount of sexist attitudes and remarks directed at her by men she works with. She smiles, laughs it off and does her job. She's been quite successful. Other women I know react to these situations by becoming defensive and alienating the men they work with. Of course, men continue to disparage these women. These women are never accepted, and their success is limited. In business as in academics, politics is part of the game, whether we like it or not. If you don't play, you lose. -- "If you plant ice, your gonna harvest wind" Seth Jackson
linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (03/08/86)
> I've seen a thoroughly competent woman physicist teased and ridiculed by men > who didn't think she 'fitted in' and didn't want her to stay in the subject. > Another man talked about a colleague's "personality, if women have a > personality". In other subjects, several of my women friends have had great > difficulty being taken seriously by their (mostly male) departments. They are The biggest problem for women in graduate schools is discrimination in receiving funding, such as fellowships and assistantships. Has anyone in this newsgroup ever seen a graduate school do an affirmative action review of awards to female and male students?
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (03/08/86)
> [Adrian Kent] > I've seen the phenomenenon Karen and Cheryl describe so often I'd almost > say it's the norm. There's a world-famous theoretical physicist (you've > probably heard of him) who won't take women in his group because he believes > they shouldn't do physics. I know others who say they find women 'distracting' > in an academic environment, talk about their female students purely in terms > their appearance, or simply refuse to take women in the subject seriously. > I've seen a thoroughly competent woman physicist teased and ridiculed by men > who didn't think she 'fitted in' and didn't want her to stay in the subject. > Another man talked about a colleague's "personality, if women have a > personality". In other subjects, several of my women friends have had great > difficulty being taken seriously by their (mostly male) departments. They are > typically brighter and more determined than their colleagues, who don't like > this. And the strategy works: two or three of my friends are concluding that > the game may not be worth the candle, and considering abandoning their > subjects. > Don't *necessarily* dismiss (your or others') suspicions as paranoia. > In my experience, men are more prone to use this sort of tactic behind > womens' backs than directly. ------------ I spent 15 years as a physicist (grad student, post-doc, and faculty) at three different institutions and I have NEVER heard any physicist, male or female, make any of the comments Adrian describes or anything remotely similar. Anyone who did so would have been (correctly) censured. I'm sure there are some Neanderthals out there, but "the norm". Come on. How about some names and places. I don't believe you. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
apak@oddjob.UUCP (Adrian Kent) (03/09/86)
In article <145@rtech.UUCP> jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) writes: >> >> There's a world-famous theoretical physicist (you've >> probably heard of him) who won't take women in his group because he believes >> they shouldn't do physics. >> Adrian Kent > >WHO? I want to know which world-famous theoretical physicist is such a jerk. In article <1690@ihlpg.UUCP> tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >I spent 15 years as a physicist (grad student, post-doc, and faculty) at >three different institutions and I have NEVER heard any physicist, male >or female, make any of the comments Adrian describes or anything >remotely similar. Anyone who did >so would have been (correctly) censured. I'm sure there are some >Neanderthals out there, but "the norm". Come on. How about some names >and places. I don't believe you. To the curious: I understand your curiosity, and would like to satisfy it. But I really don't think it would be appropriate or sensible for me to name individuals or institutions on a semi-public forum like USENET. To the disbelieving: If my word isn't good enough for you, I guess we'll both have to live with that. Adrian
weemba@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Matthew P. Wiener) (03/10/86)
In article <1690@ihlpg.UUCP> tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >> Don't *necessarily* dismiss (your or others') suspicions as paranoia. >> In my experience, men are more prone to use this sort of tactic behind >> womens' backs than directly. > >I spent 15 years as a physicist (grad student, post-doc, and faculty) at >three different institutions and I have NEVER heard any physicist, male >or female, make any of the comments Adrian describes or anything >remotely similar. Anyone who did >so would have been (correctly) censured. I'm sure there are some >Neanderthals out there, but "the norm". Come on. How about some names >and places. I don't believe you. How about Harvard? It has a very misogynist reputation at the graduate level. I know of one story first hand, and others second and third hand. ucbvax!brahms!weemba Matthew P Wiener/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison ) (03/10/86)
In article <1690@ihlpg.UUCP> tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >I spent 15 years as a physicist (grad student, post-doc, and faculty) at >three different institutions and I have NEVER heard any physicist, male >or female, make any of the comments Adrian describes or anything >remotely similar. Anyone who did >so would have been (correctly) censured. I'm sure there are some >Neanderthals out there, but "the norm". Come on. How about some names >and places. I don't believe you. Does anyone have handy the report done at MIT a few years ago? (Karen, are you still on the net?) My copy is filed away somewhere; I'll look for it if someone else doesn't post the info in the next few days. Moira Mallison tektronix!moiram
clyde@reed.UUCP (Clyde Bryja) (03/11/86)
> In article <145@rtech.UUCP> jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) writes: > >> > >> There's a world-famous theoretical physicist (you've > >> probably heard of him) who won't take women in his group because he believes > >> they shouldn't do physics. > >> Adrian Kent > > > >WHO? I want to know which world-famous theoretical physicist is such a jerk. > > In article <1690@ihlpg.UUCP> tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: > >I spent 15 years as a physicist (grad student, post-doc, and faculty) at > >three different institutions and I have NEVER heard any physicist, male > >or female, make any of the comments Adrian describes or anything > >remotely similar. Anyone who did > >so would have been (correctly) censured. I'm sure there are some > >Neanderthals out there, but "the norm". Come on. How about some names > >and places. I don't believe you. > > To the curious: I understand your curiosity, and would like to satisfy it. > But I really don't think it would be appropriate or sensible for me to > name individuals or institutions on a semi-public forum like USENET. > To the disbelieving: If my word isn't good enough for you, I guess we'll > both have to live with that. > Adrian * I see your point, but this information would be useful/influential in selecting a graduate school. Could you perhaps send the information via e-mail to all (including myself) who wish to know? That way it would just be a personal communication. Thanks in advance if you do agree. ** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** -- +++++++++++ "For Easter Day is Christmas time, Clyde Bryja And far away is near, Box 21, Reed College And two and two is more than four, Portland, OR 97202 And over there is here."
wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (03/11/86)
In article <12295@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> weemba@brahms.UUCP (Matthew P. Wiener) writes: >>so would have been (correctly) censured. I'm sure there are some >>Neanderthals out there, but "the norm". Come on. How about some names >>and places. I don't believe you. > >How about Harvard? It has a very misogynist reputation at the graduate >level. I know of one story first hand, and others second and third hand. It's starting to sound like some fields tend to be more sexist/racist than others, and that there's also a great degree of variation within a field. At this point, we can either talk statistics or individual experiences: "40% of the faculty at the University of Slobbovia are sexist, but I knew this one professor at U. Zonk that put the Slobbs to shame..." I'm not sure we're going to be able to conclude anything from all this except that sexism certainly exists in academia and that some departments are worse/better than others...maybe it's time to move on to other topics? -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly
gadfly@ihuxn.UUCP (Gadfly) (03/14/86)
-- [Bill Tanenbaum re sexism at the U] > I spent 15 years as a physicist (grad student, post-doc, and faculty) at > three different institutions and I have NEVER heard any physicist, male > or female, make any of the comments Adrian describes or anything > remotely similar. Anyone who did so would have been (correctly) > censured. I'm sure there are some Neanderthals out there, but "the > norm". Come on. How about some names and places. I don't believe you. It's very common for members of the dominant culture to be totally unaware of repressive conditions for women and minorities. I hear "There's no discrimination here" and "I treat everyone as equals" all the time in the computer biz, and the white males who say so are being entirely truthful. They are simply not sensitive to cultural and interpersonal differences, and people who've been spit on often enough learn to hide their pain. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 14 Mar 86 [24 Ventose An CXCIV] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7753 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (03/15/86)
> > >I spent 15 years as a physicist (grad student, post-doc, and faculty) at > >three different institutions and I have NEVER heard any physicist, male > >or female, make any of the comments Adrian describes or anything > >remotely similar. Anyone who did > >so would have been (correctly) censured. I'm sure there are some > >Neanderthals out there, but "the norm". Come on. How about some names > >and places. I don't believe you. > I once knew a woman who came to the U.S. and who was a physics graduate student at a university other than Berkeley. One of the professors used to follow her around campus and was pestering her to marry him. Being foreign, and speaking very little English, she had know knowledge of legal procedures for handling this, and she had no desire to start trouble, which would only cause her to have to return home, embarrassed and without a Ph.D. The situation worsened, because his professor became hostile and told lies about her to her adviser/ employer. She was almost driven out of the department until one professor came to her aid and got her an R.A. to complete her work at a military facility far away. The environment there was more professional, and it seems likely that this woman will complete her degree. Now I will tell you a music story. A woman who is currently a professor in the U.S. had passed all of her courses and composition juries, but was told by the faculty that she was not good enough, and that she could not major in composition. After some complaints on her part the faculty then said that she could stay in the major if she put on a concert of her works - something noone else was required to do. So she went through all of this extra grief, in addition to classes - getting performers, having rehearsals, etc., but after the concert it wasn't good enough, and they threw her out of the major anyway, so her Ph.D. wasn't in composition. And now a MED SCHOOL story - back in the early 70's a woman was one of 3 women in her entire med school class. This woman had overcome a history of being an abused child, and she excelled in school and was admitted to med school. She won prizes in several areas, and chose psychiarty as her specialization. She finished all four years, but there was one quirk. Her advisor was also her psychiatrist. All along, he told her how much he supported her goals. But at the last minute (3 weeks before graduation, already accepted for residency), they told her she would not graduate. She had a beer at lunch and it smelled on her breath at a rotation (she was not an alcholic or heavy drinker). She appealed to the dean. Unfortunately this woman was also very beautiful and well dressed. The dean pulled down his pants, but the woman wouldn't cooperate. She did not graduate. This woman has been on Social Security for more than 13 years now as a mentally disabled person because this experience was too much for her. If the medical school thought she was not qualified emotionally to be a doctor, they could have steered her into a research career, or addressed the problem at an earlier stage.
k@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Kathy Wienhold) (03/18/86)
In article <6807@tektronix.UUCP> moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison ) writes: >In article <1690@ihlpg.UUCP> tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: >>I spent 15 years as a physicist (grad student, post-doc, and faculty) at >>three different institutions and I have NEVER heard any physicist, male >>or female, make any of the comments Adrian describes or anything >>remotely similar. Anyone who did >>so would have been (correctly) censured. I'm sure there are some >>Neanderthals out there, but "the norm". Come on. How about some names >>and places. I don't believe you. > >Does anyone have handy the report done at MIT a few years ago? >(Karen, are you still on the net?) My copy is filed away somewhere; >I'll look for it if someone else doesn't post the info in the next few >days. > The report was done in February of 1983, titled, "Barriers to Equality in Academia: Women in Computer Science at MIT." Selected quotes, and principle conclusions follow. Quotes: "When I was a teaching assistant, one of my students missed the lecture and saw me later. He said, 'Will you come sit on my lap sometime and tell me what I missed?'" "During a grades assignment meeting, a professor decided to give a borderline student the higher grade because she was 'cute.' When I suggested that this was not a relevant basis for grading, another staff member chimed in, 'Yeah, she's not that cute.'" "Why do you need a degree for marriage?" -- a male colleague "Jane came here only to get married." -- a male graduate student "What's an attractive girl like you doing in a place like this?" -- a male colleague "Jane flirts to get whatever she wants." "You got into graduate school because the Area needs more women." "You got into graduate school because Professor Jones is in love with you." "A male graduate student said, 'The problem with this place is that there aren't enough attractive, available female graduate students.' Enough for what? I'm not here to be attractive and available." "While talking with a male colleague in my office, he suddenly placed his hand on my breast and said he liked me." There are literally pages more of this. The report reached the following conclusions (with gross quantities of evidence to back them up - the above is only a small sample): 1. Although not a generally accepted fact, the women here are as qualified as the men. In order to realize their potential, women must be given the same opportunities as men to participate in and benefit from all aspects of the professional community. 2. Many individuals in the community, either consciously or subconsciously, have expectations of women that are different from their expectations of men. 3. Pervasive subtle discrimination can do as much damage as, if not more damage than, isolated incidents of overt discrimination. 4. An uncomfortable social atmosphere interferes with a woman's ability to work productively. 5. Responsibility for change rests with the entire community, not just with the women. 6. Many problems would be alleviated by increasing the number of women. In short, Bill, you're wrong. Discrimination exists in both blatant and subtle forms to this day. It should be noted, in all fairness to MIT, that since 1983, the department has gotten noticeably better in many respects, and people much more awareness of the problem. But while blatant sexism (as demonstrated by the above remarks) is much less frequent, the subtle, pervasive kind of simply treating women as "less than a true colleague" still exists. Copies of the report can be obtained from the MIT Laboratory for Computer Science and the Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, Building NE43, MIT, Cambridge, MA 02139, for some fee or other. ~Kathy (mail to k@mit-eddie.UUCP or kay@MIT-XX.ARPA)
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (03/21/86)
> > [Bill Tanenbaum re sexism at the U] > > I spent 15 years as a physicist (grad student, post-doc, and faculty) at > > three different institutions and I have NEVER heard any physicist, male > > or female, make any of the comments Adrian describes or anything > > remotely similar. Anyone who did so would have been (correctly) > > censured. I'm sure there are some Neanderthals out there, but "the > > norm". Come on. How about some names and places. I don't believe you. -------------------- > [Ken Perlow] > It's very common for members of the dominant culture to be totally > unaware of repressive conditions for women and minorities. I hear > "There's no discrimination here" and "I treat everyone as equals" > all the time in the computer biz, and the white males who say so > are being entirely truthful. They are simply not sensitive to > cultural and interpersonal differences, and people who've been > spit on often enough learn to hide their pain. -------------------- Very well, Ken, there may very well be cultural and interpersonal differences, but Adrian was referring to blunt and unambiguous sexist statements. That's not the same thing. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Tom Keller) (03/25/86)
In article <1722@ihlpg.UUCP>, tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: > Very well, Ken, there may very well be cultural and interpersonal > differences, but Adrian was referring to blunt and unambiguous > sexist statements. That's not the same thing. > -- > Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan Tanenbaum, I get so sick of your bullshit. I have to wade through your prattle on net.politics all the time. Yessirree. According to you, there is no racism, no sexism, no poverty, no hunger, and no way to disagree with the establishment without being a "commie". The day that you stop apologizing for all the faults of our society and open your eyes is the day that you will begin to qualify in my book as a potentially intelligent human being. Until then, you are slime. (apologies to others, this personal attack is provoked by idiots like this one who refuse to see that there are problems, and call anyone that claims to have experienced them liars (check out net.politics)) -- ==================================== Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim any and all responsibility for disclaimers. tom keller {ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020 (* we may not be big, but we're small! *)