eme@mtgzz.UUCP (e.m.eades) (07/24/86)
%>> > a happy marriage and he/she doesn't. Although I have a happy %>> > marriage, I don't think everyone should be married, I don't make %>> > speeches about what an oppressive and demeaning state being single is, % %You most certainly do. You call all divorced people failures. That %is demeaning and oppressive. You fail to see the negative effects of %marriage on women. % %>> > and I am reasonably sick of single people making similar %>> > speeches about marriage. I think relationships/marriages should be %>> > evaluated (if you need to do that) in the instant cases, not in the %>> > general case. % %So why is it that married women are more likely to commit suicide than %unmarried women, and married men are less likely to commit suicide than %unmarried men? Statistically, marriage has more negative effects on women %than men? It is then vailid to conclude that women are more oppressed %in marriage than men. Therefore, divorce can be considered a success for %women who find themselves oppressed in marriage. % %Cheryl I object to your attitude that marriage is oppressive to women. Obviously you have made some choices that you were not happy with. While divorce does not make you a failure, I do think it implies that someone(s) made a mistake somewhere (possibly in getting married in the first place). I don't think that marriage as an institution is oppressive, I do think some people make it that way. I'd guess that more of the stress on women has to do with the changing role of women in society as a whole than because a woman got married. On a slightly different track, why are there so many woman who want to get married? According to the above statistics (and I do know from an article that I have read that married women rated themselves the least happy and married men rated themselves the most happy) woman do not seem to enjoy being married as much as men do, yet most of the single women I know (myself included) want to get married and most of the single men I know in the same age group (~25) do not want to get married. Those men who are aprox 25 and are getting or have gotten married recently seem to have been given the choice of get married or find someone else. Am I looking at an unusual slice of people or do others find this true also? -Beth Eades
akl@hjuxa.UUCP (A. K. Laux) (07/24/86)
() Cheryl Stewart: %So why is it that married women are more likely to commit suicide than %unmarried women, and married men are less likely to commit suicide than %unmarried men? Statistically, marriage has more negative effects on women %than men? It is then vailid to conclude that women are more oppressed %in marriage than men. Therefore, divorce can be considered a success for %women who find themselves oppressed in marriage. % %Cheryl In article <1971@mtgzz.UUCP>, eme@mtgzz.UUCP (e.m.eades) writes: > I object to your attitude that marriage is oppressive to women. > Obviously you have made some choices that you > were not happy with. While divorce does not make you a failure, I do think > it implies that someone(s) made a mistake somewhere (possibly in getting > married in the first place). I don't think that marriage as an institution > is oppressive, I do think some people make it that way. I'd guess that > more of the stress on women has to do with the changing role of women > in society as a whole than because a woman got married. > > On a slightly different track, why are there so many woman who want to get > married? According to the above statistics (and I do know from an article > that I have read that married women rated themselves the least happy and > married men rated themselves the most happy) woman do not seem to enjoy > being married as much as men do, yet most of the single women I know > (myself included) want to get married and most of the single men I know > in the same age group (~25) do not want to get married. Those men who > are aprox 25 and are getting or have gotten married recently seem to have > been given the choice of get married or find someone else. Am I looking > at an unusual slice of people or do others find this true also? > > -Beth Eades Sorry, Beth, we may agree on cats & kittens (net.pets.oldnews), but I'll have to agree with Cheryl here. In a generic sense, without talking about individual people, the laws/social customs/whatever make it rather oppressive to be a wife. A woman DOES surrender a good deal of her individuality when she marries. Now it's true that there are a LOT of young men and women out there who are waking up to the "good old boy" system that has prevailed for so many years, and they are changing it. But both you and I know, as well as a lot of net.singles and net.women readers, that there are certain males that shall remain nameless who still have inane and archaic ideas about women. Fred whatshisname wrote what I hope was a satire, but I've seen real, live human males who actually think this way. Old habits die hard. The one that gets me is "Mrs. John Jones" - whereinheck is it written that the woman lost her FIRST name, too?! Mrs. Mary Jones, if you please! Just try to keep your MAIDEN name when you marry - you want to see insurance, credit card and other companies have a heart attack? ("But you can't DO that!!") BS! As for why people want to get married, it will vary from couple to couple. I have yet to run across anyone who was a victim of marriage blackmail - "Marry me or leave me!" That kind, be it male or female, doesn't rate too highly on my list. For the record, I'm divorced. We BOTH made a mistake. It happens. He expected a good little wife just like mommy to always be there and play maid. The craziest thing is, he didn't really give any indication of this attitude while we were dating. Did I know him well enough, you ask? Is ten years enough? The IDEA of marriage is basically good. Western society has made it hard to be a wife. AKL@DEC
fuji@ssc-bee.UUCP (Glen T Fujimori) (07/29/86)
[...] > (myself included) want to get married and most of the single men I know > in the same age group (~25) do not want to get married. Those men who > are aprox 25 and are getting or have gotten married recently seem to have > been given the choice of get married or find someone else. Am I looking > at an unusual slice of people or do others find this true also? > > -Beth Eades I've found in my limited :-) dating experience, that what you say is indeed true; i.e., alot of women want to get married (I'm 29, going on the rest of my life...). That's no problem with me. My problem arises when the subject of kids comes up...it seems that alot of the women who are so willing to get married are *unwilling* to have kids (at least the one's I've met). I guess I'm old fashioned but I'd like to have a few kids, maybe more. I understand the reasons for not wanting to have alot (or a few kids).....So, I have a general question for women out there....Are there any of you who are willing to have more than two children? _Glen ihnp4!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!ssc-bee!fuji -- glen fujimori ihnp4!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!ssc-bee!fuji
ir708@sdcc6.ucsd.EDU (ir708) (07/30/86)
In article <584@ssc-bee.UUCP>, fuji@ssc-bee.UUCP (Glen T Fujimori) writes: > [...] > > > (myself included) want to get married and most of the single men I know > > in the same age group (~25) do not want to get married. > > > > -Beth Eades > > I've found in my limited :-) dating experience, that what you say is indeed > true; i.e., alot of women want to get married (I'm 29, going on the rest > of my life...). > of kids comes up... So, I have a > general question for women out there....Are there any of you who are willing > to have more than two children? > > _Glen I was one of two kids (my brother is 2.5 years older), I sometimes thought it would have been nice to have another sibling or two since I wasn't close with my brother. I realize that my parents had only the two of us because that was all they could afford, they were practical in that sense. So, *if* I ever get married and *if* I have any kids, I think I would want to balance economics with experience, and, naturally, the desires of my partner. If I could *afford* to have more kids, I would maybe like to have three or four, but if I could only afford one, fine, it's quality, not quantity, that counts. carol
eme@mtgzz.UUCP (e.m.eades) (08/05/86)
>[...] >> (myself included) want to get married and most of the single men I know >> in the same age group (~25) do not want to get married. Those men who >> are aprox 25 and are getting or have gotten married recently seem to have >> been given the choice of get married or find someone else. Am I looking >> at an unusual slice of people or do others find this true also? >> >> -Beth Eades > >I've found in my limited :-) dating experience, that what you say is indeed >true; i.e., alot of women want to get married (I'm 29, going on the rest >of my life...). That's no problem with me. My problem arises when the subject >of kids comes up...it seems that alot of the women who are so willing to get >married are *unwilling* to have kids (at least the one's I've met). I guess >I'm old fashioned but I'd like to have a few kids, maybe more. I understand >the reasons for not wanting to have alot (or a few kids).....So, I have a >general question for women out there....Are there any of you who are willing >to have more than two children? > >_Glen >ihnp4!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!ssc-bee!fuji ME! I'd like lots of kids, unfortunately Brad (my fiance) has a lets have one or two and then will see attitude on the subject. He also wants to wait as long as physically safe to start. (We agreed on when I reach 29) -Beth Eades
dms@ihlpg.UUCP (Spang) (08/05/86)
> > >[...] > > >> -Beth Eades > > > >I've found in my limited :-) dating experience, that what you say is indeed > >true; i.e., alot of women want to get married (I'm 29, going on the rest > >of my life...). That's no problem with me. My problem arises when the subject > >of kids comes up...it seems that alot of the women who are so willing to get > >married are *unwilling* to have kids (at least the one's I've met). I guess > >I'm old fashioned but I'd like to have a few kids, maybe more. I understand > >the reasons for not wanting to have alot (or a few kids).....So, I have a > >general question for women out there....Are there any of you who are willing > >to have more than two children? > > > >_Glen > >ihnp4!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!ssc-bee!fuji > Well, Old-fashioned _Glen, I have two questions for you. If a woman is not physically able to have children, is she still on your list? If you say yes, then what is the difference between that situation and when a woman is emotionally unable to have children? Debbie PS. I would love to have more than two children but, unfortunately, I fall into the former group. We're checking into adoption.
mac@uvacs.UUCP (Pat Wilson) (08/12/86)
... > the reasons for not wanting to have alot (or a few kids).....So, I have a > general question for women out there....Are there any of you who are willing > to have more than two children? > > _Glen > ihnp4!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!ssc-bee!fuji Well, I *think* I'm willing. I'd like four - this might be an overreaction to being an "only" myself, though. I'm not (as yet) married, and I am traditionalist enough (or something) to want to do things in the _usual_ manner (marriage, then kids). So it might be awhile - meanwhile, the biological clock keeps ticking. Also, I'm trying to be realistic. I only want kids if I'll be able to stay home with them (for as long as I can stand), so that means a good income, and a participating partner. I might find out that after one or two it's more than I can handle. I may not be able to have any at all (in that case, I'll stick to horses and dogs). Life's uncertain - that's half the fun. Pat Wilson UVa Medical School UUCP: ...!cbosgd!uvacs!krebs!paw3c ...!decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!krebs!paw3c CSNET: krebs!paw3c@virginia
olson@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (olson) (08/15/86)
In article <690@uvacs.UUCP> mac@uvacs.UUCP (Pat Wilson) writes: >... >> the reasons for not wanting to have alot (or a few kids).....So, I have a >> general question for women out there....Are there any of you who are willing >> to have more than two children? >> >> _Glen >> ihnp4!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!ssc-bee!fuji > >Well, I *think* I'm willing. I'd like four - this might be an overreaction > >Pat Wilson >UVa Medical School >UUCP: ...!cbosgd!uvacs!krebs!paw3c > ...!decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!krebs!paw3c >CSNET: krebs!paw3c@virginia Um, ah, one question ... Is it necessary that all these children be made by you? Would you be willing aquire some of these children by adoption? Since I find this to be a fairly serious point, let me back up to the beginning. In my own ruminating on families, I have felt that given the right cicumstances (ie. adequate economics and the ability to help all the people involved be 'nice' people) large families can be pleasent. On the other hand, there are really a rather lot of people in the world, and I shudder to think what it will be like when I'm 65 or 75. If you think that some of our elderly have trouble getting by now, think what it might be like in your old age. (being crowded out by the young ones) Thus, I find that I can generate with in myself two quite strong desires, one to have a large family and one not to. In occasional conversations with other people I have found that they tend to come out for one or the other position. (Of course there are many other reasons to take a stance, but I'm trying to keep things simple for the moment, and I don't think this limit will effect what I'm going to say.) Fortunately, like most dilemmas I have come across (especially those with large emotional content) they are only apparent. After some though it occured to me that by simply changing the way one aquires a large family the conflict disappears. Adopt. Then you can have a large family without increasing the number of people around (and you might even help some child have a better life then it(=he/she) might have otherwise). Of course there are problems with this view. 1) We can't all adopt, where will the babies come from? I don't seriously think this will ever be a problem. If it is, we can explore other life styles, such as tribes to fulfil our emotional need of large family groups. 2) We don't want to raise any children we haven't made ourselfs. At the moment I'm more likely to shed heat than light on this so I'll let it pass. 3) There are probably other problems ... Let me end with a (possibly selfish) plea. As you look for a way to satisfy your emotional needs (an important activity) please try to find solutions that take account of (possible unpleasent) constraints. There are a lot of people in the world, and if every one out there makes more than 2, they are going to make my life very unpleasent eventually (if not make their own unpleasent). If not this generation, then next. (Of course you ask, what about me. How many kids do I have, or will I have. Well, chances are I never will, 'cause I still haven't learned how to relate to others in a close way, let alone in a way to put me on a marrying footing with anyone. None the less Should I have kids, I will try to produce only one. If by some chance I should produce two, then it is time to have a vasectemy (?sp?) If more are desirable then I'll adopt.) Todd Olson ARPA: olson@lasspvax -- or -- olson%lasspvax.tn.cornell.edu@cu-arpa UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!olson US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853-2501 (At most one natural child per couple world wide until world population is below 750million then at most two.) -- Todd Olson ARPA: olson@lasspvax -- or -- olson%lasspvax.tn.cornell.edu@cu-arpa UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!olson US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853-2501
olson@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (olson) (08/15/86)
In article <887@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU> olson@batcomputer.UUCP (olson) writes: >In article <690@uvacs.UUCP> mac@uvacs.UUCP (Pat Wilson) writes: >>... >>> the reasons for not wanting to have alot (or a few kids).....So, I have a >>> general question for women out there....Are there any of you who are willing >>> to have more than two children? >>> >>> _Glen >>> ihnp4!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!ssc-bee!fuji >> >>Well, I *think* I'm willing. I'd like four - this might be an overreaction >> >>Pat Wilson >>UVa Medical School >>UUCP: ...!cbosgd!uvacs!krebs!paw3c >> ...!decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!krebs!paw3c >>CSNET: krebs!paw3c@virginia > >Um, ah, one question ... >Is it necessary that all these children be made by you? Would you be willing >aquire some of these children by adoption? > > etc ... > >Todd Olson Gak! I just had an after thought. Maybe you all were aware of the things I said and had planned to adopt. I was assuming that your initial response to 'I want a large family' was the same as mine, 'have lots of kids'. My apologies for making unjustified assumptions about your potential future actions. -- Todd Olson ARPA: olson@lasspvax -- or -- olson%lasspvax.tn.cornell.edu@cu-arpa UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!olson US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853-2501