LAWS@SRI-AI.ARPA (07/21/85)
From: AIList Moderator Kenneth Laws <AIList-REQUEST@SRI-AI>
AIList Digest Sunday, 21 Jul 1985 Volume 3 : Issue 96
Today's Topics:
Books - Library of Computer and Information Science & AI Handbook,
AI Tools - Lisp vs. C & Vaxy Lisps,
Survey - Spatial Reasoning
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Date: Sat 20 Jul 85 18:38:17-PDT
From: Rich Alderson <ALDERSON@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: V3 #95--AI Handbook
I took this offer up several years ago. I have managed to pick up a few nice
items through the club, enough to justify the postage required to turn down
most of their monthly offerings. It has been handy to have my own AIHB around
when libraries had funny summer or between-quarter hours, for example.
They have NOT had Steele's Common Lisp as yet, or I would have gotten it
through them. Oh, well....
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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 13:04 PDT
From: "Watson Mark%SAI"@LLL-MFE.ARPA
Subject: Lisp Vs C
I agree with John Fitch that both exploratory programming
and development work can be effectively done on a small memory
Lisp machine. I have found it convenient to work with a 5000 line
program (Charles Forgy's OPS5) on a 512K Macintosh using a commercially
available Lisp compiler and still have lots of room for anciliary
Lisp functions and hundreds of production rules. Programs written in
C certainly run much faster than those written in compiled Lisp, but
software development time is much greater.
Mark Watson
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Date: 18 Jul 85 16:10:00 EDT
From: " CUGINI, JOHN" <cugini@nbs-vms>
Reply-to: " CUGINI, JOHN" <cugini@nbs-vms>
Subject: Vaxy Lisps
About 2 weeks ago, I broadcast a request for information on the
availability of flavorful Lisps to run on a VAX. I got a few
responses and also some requests to be informed on the
responses, so herewith a condensation of the results:
********* begin Vaxy-Lisp references *********************
Local DEC rep for AI applications is:
Richard Brimer
8301 Professional Place
Landover MD 20785
ms: DC0-912
They (DEC) are developing a flavors system, called VAXFLAVORS,
much like Symbolics'.
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From: MPW 26-JUN-1985 14:29:37
Return-Path: <MPW@MIT-MC.ARPA>
You probably should be aware of NIL, a lisp implementation for VMS
developed at MIT. NIL has a flavor system, and is available for a
nominal tape-copying/distribution charge. Contact Glenn Burke at
(617) 253-3546 for further information. He's hard to get by phone;
you may have better luck with net mail to GSB@MIT-MC.
Mike Wellman
********************************************************
From: CARR 26-JUN-1985 14:44:23
Subj: psl blurb
Please send a psl [portable standard lisp] blurb for psl/vax/vms
to CUGINI@NBS-VMS.
Thanks, Harold
[psl is available from University of Utah for $750]
********************************************************
From: chaowatkins 26-JUN-1985 15:56:06
Subj: lisp
Return-Path: <chaowatkins@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA>
John,
XLISP is a small, toy lisp. It is in public domain. The main
purpose is to allow users to play with `object oriented programming'
approach. The copy I have runs on the Z80. There must be a copy that
runs on the IBM-PC by now, i assume. i can get you the name of the
bulletin board to call for the Z80 copy, let me know.
VAX/VMS has Common Lisp running on it. The compiler is developed
at DEC.
For object-oriented programming purposes, try:
1) Symbolics lisp machine -- FLAVORS system
2) Xerox -- SMALLTALK
scw (my arpa address is : chaowatkins@SCRC-STONY-BROOK.ARPA)
********************************************************
From: FAHLMAN 27-JUN-1985 10:43:39
Return-Path: <FAHLMAN@CMU-CS-C.ARPA>
DEC has been selling a Common Lisp for the Vax (VMS only, though a unix
version is about to enter field test) for over a year, with
professional-level support. It is certainly the most solid and
well-supported Lisp available for VMS at this point, and because it is a
Common Lisp code can be ported to many other machines. There is no
object-oriented support available from DEC yet, but we at CMU are close
to releasing a portable Flavors package for Common Lisp.
-- Scott Fahlman
********************************************************
From: mcguire 28-JUN-1985 15:33:10
The best vax/lisp I've used is "T" which is a version of Scheme.
It has lexical scoping, closures, objects, and an optimizing compiler.
It was developed at the Yale C.S department and since you are at NBS
you can probably get it directly from them (there was company comercially
distributing it but I think no longer).
The contact point should still be John O'Donnel (? odonnel@yale.arpa).
If that address doesn't work, let me know and I'll try to hunt up the right
address.
********************************************************
There is CSI Lisp (Cognitive Systems, Inc) which
runs on top of VAX/LISP, but with object-oriented stuff.
cost $10K.
address: Cognitive Systems Inc.
234 Church St.
New Haven CT 06510
********************************************************
From: vasoll%okstate. 26-JUN-1985 11:29:59
Return-Path: <vasoll%okstate.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
John,
I have an old note from back in Dec. `84 that indicates a fellow named
David Betz wrote the original implementation of XLISP. Another person, John
Woods, picked that up and enhanced it, then posted it to net.sources on USENET.
I don't have an electronic address for Mr. Betz, but John Woods was reachable
back in December at mit-eddie!jfw.
Hope this helps,
Mark Vasoll
Department of Computing and Information Sciences
Oklahoma State University
UUCP: {cbosgd, ea, ihnp4, isucs1, mcvax, pesnta, uokvax}!okstate!vasoll
ARPA: vasoll%okstate.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
********************************************************
Return-Path: <diamant%case.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
I have been using VAXLISP for about six months now. I have implemented
an expert system to reason about grasping objects in it. It is truly
a full-fledged implementation of Common LISP. I generally use Guy Steele's
language specification instead of the user's manual for a reference. The
features that I have found lacking in it (not many) have been in the area
of problems with the specification, rather than the implementation. I
can't comment on price -- I don't know how much we paid for it. [I think
it costs $5K -- JC ] Performance
of the system when the VAX doesn't have loads of memory can be pretty bad.
However, the compiler is quite good. One grad student here implemented a
window system including a terminal driver in compiled LISP code, and it
ran quite rapidly. It all depends on how well you write the code (declares
can be very important to speeding up compiled code).
As far as xlisp goes, it can run on VAX/VMS if you have a C compiler.
It is a good language in which to learn LISP, but it is only on the verge
of being a useful language for real work. XLISP was written by David
Betz (I think his address is Betz@YALE, but I can't remember for sure).
XLISP is a public domain LISP which has some syntactic similarity to
Common LISP, but by no means is it Common LISP at present. For one thing,
Common LISP is lexically scoped except when told otherwise. XLISP is
dynamically scoped. XLISP contains a smalltalk-like object oriented
programming interface.
If you are interested in object oriented Common LISPs (that is one
of the drawbacks of the language specification -- they didn't include
object oriented programming), I suggest you consider a few possibilities:
HP has a specification for a flavors-like extension to the Common LISP
specification (contact snyder@hplabs.csnet or hplabs!snyder.UUCP). I'm
not sure if the implementation is complete or whether they sell it
independently of the LISP system itself. The same grad student I mentioned
above implemented a subset of flavors in Common LISP. Distribution of
this implementation has not been worked out yet, but I am sure it will
be possible to obtain it. If you are interested, I could check up on it for
you.
John Diamant Usenet: ...decvax!cwruecmp!diamant
Case Western Reserve University CSNet: diamant@Case
Cleveland, Ohio ARPA: diamant%Case@CSNet-Relay
********* end of Vaxy_Lisp references **************
John Cugini <Cugini@NBS-VMS>
Institute for Computer Sciences and Technology
National Bureau of Standards
Bldg 225 Room A-265
Gaithersburg, MD 20899
phone: (301) 921-2431
------------------------------
Date: 18 Jul 85 15:43:00 EDT
From: " CUGINI, JOHN" <cugini@nbs-vms>
Reply-to: " CUGINI, JOHN" <cugini@nbs-vms>
Subject: Spatial reasoning
About 2 weeks ago, I broadcast a request for information on AI
work in the realm of spatial reasoning. I got a few responses
and also some requests to be informed on the responses, so
herewith a condensation of the results:
********* begin spatial-reasoning references *********************
Return-Path: <PARK@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Received: from SRI-AI.ARPA by NBS-VMS.ARPA ; 8 Jul 85 02:36:36 EDT
From: Bill Park <PARK@SRI-AI.ARPA>
The big names in the field are Tomas Lozano-Perez and Rod Brooks at MIT,
and Sharir & Co. at Courant Inst., NYU.
***************************************************
[this one came, unbidden, from ailist, but I'm repeating it for
completeness - JC]
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 14:14 EST
From: "S. Holland" <holland%gmr.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Seminar - Shape from Function (GMR)
SHAPE FROM FUNCTION VIA MOTION ANALYSIS
with Application to the Automatic Design of
Orienting Devices for Vibratory Part Feeders
Dr. Tomas Lozano-Perez
MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab
Cambridge, MA. 02139
Wednesday, August 14, 1985, 11:00 a.m.
General Motors Research Laboratories
Computer Science Department
Warren, Michigan 48090-9057
This talk explores the premise that the function of many devices can be
characterized by how they interact with other objects....
.....
Dr. Lozano-Perez has authored technical articles in the areas of motion
planning, robot programming, and model-based object recognition. He has
been affiliated with the M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Laboratory since
1973.
Steve Holland informs me that this talk will be held at GMR and that Tomas
is reachable at tlp%mit-oz@mit-mc or via u.s. mail to MIT AI Lab. -- KIL
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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1985 14:14 EDT
From: Juliana Kraft <ROBOT.JULIE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA>
Subject: Spatial Reasoning Query
For 3D you must consider 6 degrees of freedom (3 translational and 3
rotational). I recommend "Motion Planning with Six Degrees of
Freedom," by Bruce Donald, (261 pp), MIT AI-TR 791, available from
Publications Office
MIT AI Laboratory
Room NE43-818
545 Tech Square
Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 253-6773.
***************************************************
Return-Path: <dave@cmu-cs-cad.arpa>
Received: from CMU-CS-CAD.ARPA by NBS-VMS.ARPA ; 9 Jul 85 18:07:29 EDT
Date: 9 Jul 1985 18:01:34-EDT
From: Bharat.Dave@CMU-CS-CAD
To: cugini@nbs-vms
Subject: Re: Spatial reasoning
Does your query about "spatial reasoning" refer to the physical objects
(as in buildings) ? If so, then I don't know of any reference or work
that specifically addresses it. But you may try the following- it contains
a number of references which may be of interest to you.
DRC-12-23-84 A Bibliography on Knowledge-Based Expert Systems in Engineering,
D. Sriram
(can be obtained from) Design Research Center
Carnegie-Mellon University
Doherty Hall A219
Pittsburgh PA 15213
Dave
****************************************************
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 12:25 EDT
From: Tim Finin <Tim%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa>
Subject: Seminar - Geometric Reasoning (Penn)
A GEOMETRIC REASONING SYSTEM FOR MOVING AN OBJECT WHILE MAINTAINING
CONTACT WITH OTHERS
Anastasia Koutsou, Dept. of Artificial Intelligence, University of Edinburgh
Thursday, 11 July 1985 3:00 pm 216 Moore
[...]
********* end of spatial-reasoning references **************
John Cugini <Cugini@NBS-VMS>
Institute for Computer Sciences and Technology
National Bureau of Standards
Bldg 225 Room A-265
Gaithersburg, MD 20899
phone: (301) 921-2431
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Date: Thu 18 Jul 85 14:36:24-PDT
From: Ken Laws <Laws@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Reply-to: AIList-Request@SRI-AI.ARPA
Subject: Re: Spatial reasoning
Thanks for sharing your summaries with us.
Spatial reasoning is a lot harder than people realize. We had a
fellow here who started naively with the "logic" approach --
"It's easy, you just define an AT predicate and a MOVE predicate ..."
-- and then began to learn the real problems when he started
writing programs for a robot arm. A year later he said "You know,
I've almost finished developing an AT predicate!"
The problem he and others in the SRI Robotics Group have solved is
the transformation of spatial knowledge from one time and sensor
to knowledge relative to another [loosely-coupled] coordinate system
after an arbitrary sequence of arm motions and sensing steps. The AT
predicate must therefore be developed as a fuzzy specification of
[bent] error ellipses or probability distributions, and propagating
these spatial uncertainties through sequences of imprecise motions is
pretty hairy. (Contact Smith@SRI-AI if you want more details.)
Spatial (and temporal) reasoning has received quite a bit of attention
from the philosophers and linguists. Annette Herskovits of Stanford
has written several papers on the semantics and pragmatics of spatial
prepositions, and Lotfi Zadeh has developed fuzzy representations
of spatial language. I have a 1974 paper by Norman Sondheimer, UWashington
CSD Report 205, English as a Basis for Command Languages for Machines
and Some Problems of Spatial Reference; I'm sure there are many such papers.
The Commonsense Summer people at SRI (under Jerry Hobbs' leadership)
attempted to formalize spatial reasoning, but didn't come up with
much that wasn't already familiar to the robotics community (e.g.,
the Edinburgh RAPT system for constrained motion planning).
Mathematicians and computer scientists (and others) have worried about
traveling salesmen, bin-packing, spatial layout, tool motion, polygonal
decomposition, cartographic mapping, and many other problems. In the
architecture domain, I've seen papers by John Grason and Charles
Eastman of CMU (e.g., CACM 13/4, April 1970, and CACM 15/2, February
1972) on space planning.
Some of the most interesting recent work in spatial reasoning seems to
be that of Earnest Davis at Yale (the MERCATOR representation) and of
John Tsotsos at U. Toronto (combined spatial/temporal reasoning
in the ALVEN system for interpreting ultrasound heart images).
-- Ken Laws
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End of AIList Digest
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