hollis@ucf-cs.UUCP (William ) (11/06/84)
[]
A letter to the editor. "The Orlando Sentinel" Monday, November 5, 1984
Page A-14:
TIME TO USE YOUR BRAINS
THE BRAIN, the most specialized and intricate organ in the body, is
being abused. We just are not using it any more. Machines are doing
our thinking for us.
Computers are one of the problems. They were designed to take the load
of facts and figures off our backs. Instead, they are practically doing
all the thinking for us. Television is the other offender. To a majority
of people, it is their only form of communication. Sit down, press a button
and it's right there in living color. No need to talk or think.
Why don't we start calculating what these machines are doing? If we don't,
we may have scientific and sophisticated equipment with no one knowledgeable
enough to use it.
Helen Alexander
Winter Park
Well? Any comments? By the way, Winter Park is a small town north of Orlando,
mostly suburb and 'higher income'. I personally would like to ask this lady
to multiply two 100X100 matrices together, and see which year she gets them
done....(;->) But seriously folks, are there a lot of people out there that
are machigynists? (I really couldn't think of a word for machine haters...)
Ken Hollis
The above article does not represent the views of me, my friends, or anyone
of rational mind. I also hope that I have given enough credit to the source
of the article.kfl@hoxna.UUCP (Kenton Lee) (11/07/84)
xxx I agree that computers are over-used (abused?) in modern American society. How many times have you tried to make a transaction at your local bank/travel agent/motor vehicals office/etc. and have gotten the reply "I'm sorry I can't help you, our computer is down". The systems implemented in these organizations are so computer-dependant that human back-up is impractical or impossible. Also, skilled positions are being replaced by semi-skilled or unskilled jobs, which deteriorates the quality of life in this country. I think too much weight is being placed on short term local productivity gains, without looking at longer-term, society wide, problems produced by mechanization. Ken Lee hoxna!kfl
parnass@ihu1h.UUCP (Bob Parnass, AJ9S) (11/07/84)
> > [] > > A letter to the editor. "The Orlando Sentinel" Monday, November 5, 1984 > Page A-14: > > TIME TO USE YOUR BRAINS > > THE BRAIN, the most specialized and intricate organ in the body, is > being abused. We just are not using it any more. Machines are doing > our thinking for us. > > Computers are one of the problems. They were designed to take the load > of facts and figures off our backs. Instead, they are practically doing > all the thinking for us. ...... > Why don't we start calculating what these machines are doing? If we don't, > we may have scientific and sophisticated equipment with no one knowledgeable > enough to use it. > > Helen Alexander > Winter Park > > > Well? Any comments? By the way, Winter Park is a small town north of Orlando, > mostly suburb and 'higher income'. I personally would like to ask this lady > to multiply two 100X100 matrices together, and see which year she gets them > done....(;->) ...... > Ken Hollis Ken, I agree with the woman who authored the article. I think you have misinterpreted her suggestion, based on her use of the phrase "start calculating..." The fact that she lives in one town rather than another not pertinent to the thought expressed. Let's discuss the point on its own merits, please. Now to the point: I think the heavy use of the simple calculator has displaced the ability to perform simple arithmetic. If you doubt this, just watch the young clerks in the store try to perform a calculation manually when the electronic cash register is out of order. It's embarrassing! P.S. - I'm not anti-technology, and have more than a slight passing interest in computers and electronics :-) -- =============================================================================== Bob Parnass, Bell Telephone Laboratories - ihnp4!ihu1h!parnass - (312)979-5414
mkg@whuxlm.UUCP (Marsh Gosnell) (11/08/84)
> TIME TO USE YOUR BRAINS
Another classic example is the new style of children's sneakers.
The last time I bought sneakers for my kids, I had a very hard
time finding sneakers that the kids could tie. A vast majority
of children's sneakers have velcro straps instead of laces.
I want my 3 year old to learn how to tie his shoes. How can he
learn if shoes don't have laces on them???
Marsh Gosnell whuxlk!mkgmatt@oddjob.UChicago.UUCP (Matt Crawford) (11/08/84)
Ken Hollis quotes from a newspaper: > Why don't we start calculating what these machines are doing? If we don't, > we may have scientific and sophisticated equipment with no one knowledgeable > enough to use it. > > Helen Alexander > Winter Park And comments: > Well? Any comments? By the way, Winter Park is a small town north of > Orlando, mostly suburb and 'higher income'. I personally would like > to ask this lady to multiply two 100X100 matrices together, and see > which year she gets them done....(;->) To which I respond: When I was an undergrad in Applied Math at Caltech, I had a classmate who had worked a summer for <a certain electronics company>. He did numerical problems there, and was asked by an engineer to invert a matrix of dimension approximately 200x200. After the machine ground out the answer (this was about 10 years ago) my friend thought the numbers looked familiar. He asked the engineer "Does this matrix represent a rotation in some sense?" The answer was in the affirmative. "Then the inverse is the transpose, idiot!" Computer literacy should in no way be substitued for thinking, nor mistaken for it. _____________________________________________________ Matt University crawford@anl-mcs.arpa Crawford of Chicago ihnp4!oddjob!matt
herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong, Computing Services) (11/08/84)
If shoelaces become obsolete, it matters little that your child can tie
shoelaces or not. It depends on your view of the future. Of course,
shoelaces are just one example of this. On the other hand, losing
arithmetic skills because of the high use of calculators is a more
serious thing. I know that even I use them for my, mostly trivial,
calculations and other things. The introduction of calculators and
computers has allowed people to have a deeper understanding of the
mathematical structure of a problem by hiding the details, such as
arithmetic. The covering up the details has a price--it allows one to
forget the details altogether so often that one loses those skills.
Back in the days of ancient history (when computers were still
programmed from a console :-)), one had to know all about the hardware
registers, instruction op-codes, and instruction sizes to write a
program. Now we let compilers do the work. Even assemblers are a
step above. All the hardware knowledge was essential at one time to be
a programmer, but only a few people these days require it. Is
arithmetic destined to become such a skill, practiced by the few in
number theory? Should arithmetic become a graduate course to be
practised by scholars?
Herb Chong...
PS. Incidentally, I own an HP-15C, and HP-67, and a TI LCD Programmer.
I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....
UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
NETNORTH, BITNET: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsuslf@teddy.UUCP (Scott Fisher) (11/08/84)
In article <382@hoxna.UUCP> kfl@hoxna.UUCP (Kenton Lee) writes: >xxx >... Also, skilled positions are being replaced by semi-skilled or unskilled >jobs, which deteriorates the quality of life in this country. I >think too much weight is being placed on short term local productivity >gains, without looking at longer-term, society wide, problems >produced by mechanization. > >Ken Lee >hoxna!kfl But look at the other side of it. Does it take more skill to program a computer or to print forms? As the demand for hi-tech equipment increases the demand for people to design and program this equipment also increases. This whole process stimulates the economy which we need in any case. If we stick to the old ways of doing things we become a stagnate culture while the rest of the world is advancing. "to stand still is to go backward" Scott Fisher
kadie@uiucdcs.UUCP (11/09/84)
Someone asks: How can we teach our children to tie their shoes if shoes are no longer tied? I wonder: Why should we teach our children to tie their shoes if shoes are no longer tied? Is there some benefit in shoe tieing or manual arthimitic beyond their results?
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (11/09/84)
> I want my 3 year old to learn how to tie his shoes. How can he > learn if shoes don't have laces on them??? And just think of all the kids with digital watches that have no idea what clockwise is! -Ron
joe@smu.UUCP (11/09/84)
About adults now having trouble doing arithmetic: A week ago, I was at the grocery store. A women ahead of me was buying a three-pak of some item, on sale for $1.39. The checkout girl decided to scan one item three times, but a single item was $0.60. When the customer complained, the girl said ``It comes out the same, doesn't it?'' to which the customer replied ``No, 60 * 3 is 240, that's a big difference!'' katie asks why should people know how to tie shoes if they don't have laces. I think there are many things which require knot tying than shoes. Sure, some of them are specific to things which many people may not care about, such as boating. However, there are simple household things which need knots. For example, I just bought a new cover for my ironing board. It required me to tie a simple knot. This is a silly example, but I think it is valid. A friend had this experience at an ice cream parlor. He bought two scoops of ice cream. One scoop may cost $1, say, while two scoops costs $1.80. The clerk (jerk?) rang up a purchase for 2 one scoops, or $2. He just pushed the one scoop button on the register twice. My friend pointed at the menu, and insisted that we was overcharged. The clerk couldn't figure out what to do. (I am sure he must of had a two scoop button. I wonder why he couldn't find it). Finally, he just gave my friend the 20 cent difference. It seems that if he was using a different method of figuring the charge, he would have fared better. (Or maybe not. Granted, the guy was *real* stupid!) Joe Ramey Southern Methodist University convex!smu!joe
alan@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Alan Algustyniak) (11/10/84)
I invite Helen Alexander to take her own advice, and 'start calculating what these machines are doing.'
parnass@ihu1h.UUCP (Bob Parnass, AJ9S) (11/10/84)
> Someone asks: > How can we teach our children to tie > their shoes if shoes are no longer tied? > > I wonder: > Why should we teach our children to > tie their shoes if shoes are no longer > tied? > > Is there some benefit in shoe tieing > or manual arthimitic beyond their results? Why trivialize results? The result is often of paramount import. The practical scenario in my original example is: -I'm a patron in a diner, trying to pay my bill -the cash register breaks -the young cashier can't do the simple arithmetic manually. -my time is wasted because I must wait (I've even helped the cashier by doing the arithmetic myself). My time is either worth more or less than that of the cashier's, but it clearly has some value. -- =============================================================================== Bob Parnass, Bell Telephone Laboratories - ihnp4!ihu1h!parnass - (312)979-5414
jab@uokvax.UUCP (11/10/84)
/***** uokvax:net.college / oddjob!matt / 2:02 am Nov 8, 1984 */ Ken Hollis quotes from a newspaper: > Why don't we start calculating what these machines are doing? If we don't, > we may have scientific and sophisticated equipment with no one knowledgeable > enough to use it. /* ---------- */ I'm reminded of the user at the computer center at my school that would run programs THREE TIMES before looking at the output, since "the computer is less reliable than humans". You're right; there are many science fiction stories in which a culture knows nothing about the technology surrounding it except that "I push 'this button' and 'that' happens." I remember with some fondness that my high school chemistry teacher REFUSED to let us use calculators for homework and tests, insisting on sliderules. In high school, I was taught that arccos(1) = 2*pi*n (n an integer) arcsin(1) = pi/2 + 2*pi*n (n an integer) and can't help but laugh when a TI59 tells me that there's exactly one solution to the equation. On the other hand, it seems silly to ignore the speed of these nifty toys. Would you prefer that we have a gaggle of accountants verify the calculations made by *ALL* those bank transactions every day? Would you prefer to have human operators instead of electronic switching? I seem to remember reading that in the case of the latter, most of the population of this country would work for the phone companies! Jeff Bowles Lisle, IL
djl@fisher.UUCP (Dan Levin N6BZA ) (11/10/84)
On the subject of losing arithmetic skills, read Asimov's story
about the guy who reinvents multiplication by hand, in 2100.
They (the powers that be) quickly silence this poor fellow,
since the ability to do math in your head would allow a person,
much more expendable than an expensive computer, to fly a guided
missile. Wow. Really makes you think.
I do not remember the title, but I think this story appears in
'The Best of Asimov, Book 1 (or 2).'
--
***dan
{allegra,astrovax,princeton,twg}!fisher!djl
The misplaced (What *are* those trees doing??) Californiantlh@akgua.UUCP (T.L. Harris [Tom]) (11/12/84)
... What matters most in this discussion is not that the ability to do arithmatic is lost, but that the knowledge of why the arithmatic works will be lost. I am not a promoter of the "Black-box" concept, where input goes in, and output comes out, and to hell with what happened in between. Results are fine if you can have confidence in those results. Do you feel confident when the young cashier haltingly counts out your changs during a power outage? Do you know how and why your car runs? Do you care? You might some day when you break down miles from home. I make use of these wonderful new tools. I marval at their speed and versitility. I can do so because I know what they are doing and why they produce what they produce. Why is more important than What! ...
kevyn@watarts.UUCP (K.C-T. [eh?] I am) (11/12/84)
> But look at the other side of it. Does it take more skill to program a > computer or to print forms? As the demand for hi-tech equipment increases > the demand for people to design and program this equipment also increases. > This whole process stimulates the economy which we need in any case. If > we stick to the old ways of doing things we become a stagnate culture while > the rest of the world is advancing. "to stand still is to go backward" > Scott Fisher Correction: As the demand for hi-tech equipment increases the demand for people to design and program this equipment DECREASES. Computers will design "better" computers which will design "better" computers... ad infinitum. Ahhhhh!!! Von Neumann strikes again! [ Celibacy is not hereditary ...] ========================================================================= Kevyn Collins-Thompson University of Waterloo, Waterloo, ON, CANADA !! =========================================================================
scw@cepu.UUCP (11/12/84)
In article <1668@ucf-cs.UUCP> hollis@ucf-cs.UUCP (William ) writes: >[...] > Helen Alexander > Winter Park > >Well? Any comments? By the way, [...] there a lot of people out there that >are machigynists? (I really couldn't think of a word for machine haters...) > I think the term that you want is Luddite. >Ken Hollis -- Stephen C. Woods (VA Wadsworth Med Ctr./UCLA Dept. of Neurology) uucp: { {ihnp4, uiucdcs}!bradley, hao, trwrb}!cepu!scw ARPA: cepu!scw@ucla-cs location: N 34 3' 9.1" W 118 27' 4.3"
6912ar04@sjuvax.UUCP (rowley) (11/12/84)
Don't blame it on ignorance. Blame it on LAZINESS!!!!!
-
/ *\
\ <******FLAME!!!!*****
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/ \+
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*** A. J. Rowley
--
There is no dark side of the moon really; as a matter of fact, it's all dark...
-"Eclipse", Pink Floydcuccia@ucbvax.ARPA (Nick Cuccia) (11/13/84)
Half the kids here at California's home for the Intellectually
Insane wear the things. Sometimes I wonder if THEY know how
to tie their shoes...
--Nick Cuccia
--ucbvax!cuccia
PS: the opinions above are my own and are not to be confused with
official UC opinions...dave@gitpyr.UUCP (David Corbin) (11/13/84)
> Someone asks: > How can we teach our children to tie > their shoes if shoes are no longer tied? > I wonder: > Why should we teach our children to > tie their shoes if shoes are no longer > tied? > > Is there some benefit in shoe tieing > or manual arthimitic beyond their results? Is there a benefit? YES! What about how the mind reacts to learning ANYTHING new? Be it math, or tieing shoelaces, or telling time. On the surface, the mind says, "Ok, so I know how to do this or that", but underneath it has added something to its vast repetoire of skills. Also, hopefully, it will in some way facilitate learning something else, later. That is, if I learn to tie my shoes as a child, then later, when I am trying to build a bridge out of rope and logs, HOPEFULLY, I will have a slightly better advantage in the way I attack the knot-tying, etc., assuming I have no previous pioneering experience. Also, with so many people worried about Nuclear devistation, consider that much of modern day technology might be lost. David Corbin Georgia Institute of Technology Box 34034 Atlanta GA 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dave ...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!gitpyr!dave
mauney@ncsu.UUCP (Jon Mauney) (11/13/84)
[he wore tan shoes with pink shoelaces ...] Having read on the net that velcro shoes will probably stunt a child's intellectual and physical development, I went home and asked my wife how old she was when she learned to tie her shoes. She had a puzzled look on her face as she tried to remember whether she'd owned a pair of shoes with laces as a kid. My wife, you see, grew up in Hawaii, where most children (and many adults) wear sandals or go barefoot. She had no problems tying her shoes when she finally had to, and she is not handicapped in manual dexterity. Of course, this is anecdotal evidence. Perhaps someone would care to study whether their is a statistically significant difference in the population at large. Are Hawaiian sailors less adept with their sheets than others? Do Hawaiian fishermen avoid hand-tied lures for live bait (correcting, of course, for the lack of trout streams in Hawaii)? Does the basketball team at Chaminade College have to include shoe-tying drills in their training program? (I had to bring 'college' into the discussion somehow. ) Clearly it is useless to argue this issue without getting some hard facts to disagree about. -- _Doctor_ Jon Mauney, mcnc!ncsu!mauney \__Mu__/ North Carolina State University [... and a big panama with a purple hat band]
daryoush@sdcsvax.UUCP (Daryoush Morshedian) (11/14/84)
The interesting irony to all this is that one uses his body through out his life, though one doesn't completely know "how" it works!
broehl@wateng.UUCP (Bernie Roehl) (11/14/84)
Agreed. There's no point in teaching children how to tie laces if laces
are on their way out. Do *you* know the proper way to wear spats, or how
to clean a powdered wig?
--
-Bernie Roehl (University of Waterloo)
...decvax!watmath!wateng!broehl
73:78:79:14:y:y:4.2BSD:microcomputer,software,theatre,comedy,improvisationwelsch@houxu.UUCP (Larry Welsch) (11/15/84)
There is a marvelous book on education called "The Saber Tooth Tiger Curriculum" (if my memory serves me right). I recommend it highly to all people who worry about lack of Latin, lack of ability to tie shoes, etc. etc. I do not place much importance in memorization skills. I do place importance on being able to solve problems. There is a big difference. What bothers me is that schools traditionally confuse memorizing tables with the skill of deriving them in the first place. Larry Welsch houxu!welsch
chris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) (11/17/84)
> Do *you* know the proper way to wear spats, or how > to clean a powdered wig? What's a spat? Why would anyone powder a wig? [:-)] -- (This line accidently left nonblank.) In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (301) 454-7690 UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland
kcd@drutx.UUCP (DeCockKC) (11/18/84)
I think that the bottom line about shoe tying and such is that if you want your kid to know how to tie their shoe's you'll teach them (if you still remember) also kids are curious and if they see the " shoe tying phenomana" they might even ask you to teach them. I think that there is a similar problem with kids being able to use calculators in high school as opposed to there minds. but I guess that what were all trying to do is find the simplest solution to any given problem. I will teach my children how to add & subtract as well as tie their own shoelaces (if they want to learn!) Keenan (drutx!kcd)
fmc@pyuxqq.UUCP (fmc) (11/19/84)
>> Correction: As the demand for hi-tech equipment increases the demand >> for people to design and program this equipment DECREASES. Computers >> will design "better" computers which will design "better" computers... >> ad infinitum. Ahhhhh!!! Von Neumann strikes again! Thats great. Then maybe we will get the long-awaited 4 or 3 day work-week!
wed722@uiucuxa.UUCP (11/21/84)
my summary:
let the machines do the calculating, but not the thinking. if you
don't know what the machine is doing or how, you are a fool to trust it's
answers. all programs require some sort of modeling assumptions that are
only valid under certain conditions. he who uses a tool without knowing
its limitations will surely run afoul of them.ccsmith@burdvax.UUCP (Christopher C. Smith) (12/10/84)
{ ... zzzzzzzz}
I seem to remember reading about a study where people were given
calculators to perform simple arithmetic problems. The calculators were
programmed to give answers which were increasingly farther from the correct
ones. In many cases the people would believe the machine even on simple
problems when the answers were several orders of magnitude from the correct
answer.
Sure it is okay to use calculators in school for complex functions but not
before you can do the basics on your own. An ability to estimate the range
of the answer is pretty useful too. Maybe we should teach the use of slide
rules beore they can use a calculator!! :-)
Chris Smith ==>> {bpa,psuvax,sdcrdcf}!burdvax!ccsmith
--
{bpa, psuvax,sdcrdf}!burdvax!ccsmith ==>> Chris Smith
System Development Corporation
Box 517
Paoli, Pennsylvania 19301