jsgray@watmath.UUCP (Jan Gray) (11/14/84)
> Unless the resources are there just for personal use, someone > is going to ask a user to justify their resource consumption. This sums up the way thinking has changed here at Waterloo. I had free and unrestricted access to good old Math Unix and I was a mere "snotty" 15 year old high school kid. In those days anyone could get an account just for the asking...Results weren't demanded, and if you did do something neat, well good for you! Nowadays, you must "justify your resource consumption". You can no longer "hack" -- just write (or not write) whatever you feel like; if you wish to get a UNIX account you must be willing to do software work (however trifling) for the Math Faculty, and there are no accounts for learning UNIX! The hackers are gone. As long as the "justify your existence" attitude prevails, they won't return. It's a pity. Are you experiencing the same symptoms at *your* university? "Oh, for the good old days!" Jan Gray (jsgray@watmath.UUCP) University of Waterloo (519) 885-1211 x3870
wjafyfe@watmath.UUCP (Andy Fyfe) (11/14/84)
It's a little worse than has been described. For an undergraduate,
not only are resources hard (read nearly impossible) to come by for
undirected use, resources required for course work are not always
adequate. It's about 10:15 pm now, and the one vax that is available
for undergradate course work is "a little overloaded". This is not
an environment for getting people interested in using Unix!
watrose up 6+10:52, 40 users, load 22.37, 19.03, 17.85
(The local (world?) record load average for rose (a 780) is over 80!)
I should be careful though. There is obviously a great deal of space
between no use at all and complete freedom to do what you want.
Personally, I believe were further to the former than we should be, at
least in terms of undergraduate computing facilities.
--Andy Fyfe ...!{decvax, allegra, ihnp4, et. al}!watmath!wjafyfe
wjafyfe%watmath@waterloo.csnetrcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Randy Buckland) (11/14/84)
> It's a little worse than has been described. For an undergraduate, > not only are resources hard (read nearly impossible) to come by for > undirected use, resources required for course work are not always > adequate. Thats what micros are for. I have two personals and get all the undirected hacking I can handle. They are not that expensive. Randy Buckland ...!mcnc!rtisel!rcb Research Triangle Institute
marie@harvard.ARPA (Marie Desjardins) (11/14/84)
At Harvard, we have free "lowpri" accounts for any undergrad who comes in and asks. Unfortunately, we also have very limited resources (hear that, o powers that be?) so students with course accounts have priority. Of course, lowpri users are always asking for more... it would be nice if there were a machine devoted to free computing: anyone who wanted could have an account and do whatever they pleased. But that isn't feasible. The present system seems to work fairly well. marie desjardins marie@harvard
shindman@utcs.UUCP (Paul Shindman) (11/14/84)
Encountered an interesting point related to the topic. We were in a meeting today discussing the affects of a mod to TSO that would make the users' lives easier, but would lead to a potentially serious gap in system integrity. The question then arose; "who the heck knows about this enough who could get in and gain authorized access to everything through this mod???". The obvious answer was that some hack would be sure to find out about it and do something nasty, like add a million dollars to their account. Then somebody spoke up and said, "but there aren't anymore hacks around!'. To which we collectively thought for 5 seconds and reached the same conclusion. Now it could be that all the hacks have moved to UNIX and off of our IBM systems, but there is a distinct change at U of T from 5 or so years ago when hacks abounded on all our systems. My personal opinion is that it is to our collective detriment that the environment no longer exists in which hacks can flourish. Their presence was on the whole benficial in that they always wanted to learn something new, and were always assisting those who didn't know (invariably to show off their hackability) and often ended up doing contract work or getting hired by the computer center, comp sci department, or some prof looking for someone who knew how to (mis)handle a computer. I'll forward the news on this topic around our site and add more comments at a later date. Paul Shindman utcs!shindman
pauls@tekecs.UUCP (Paul Sweazey) (11/15/84)
I've never been to Waterloo I never care to be there And one more thing that I don't care Is if computing's free there -- Isolationist American
hugh@hcrvax.UUCP (Hugh Redelmeier) (11/15/84)
There were many "Golden Eras" of computing at Waterloo: at least
one per generation. WATFOR (the original for the IBM 7040/44)
was written by four undergrads as a summer job. The IBM 1620s
and 1710 were the centre for another generation. In the first
week of first year, I asked for access to the IBM 1710 (officially
it was only to be used by grad students and faculty). I was not
only given access, I was put in charge of the machine and two others.
From then on, it was a hacks' machine (we called ourselves
"computer rats" then). We had access to the sources of the system
software & wrote more; we made hardware mods; we put a spooling system
on a machine that came without I/O interrupts!
Another Golden Age was initiated by the arival of APL, the first
timesharing on campus.
Another involved the Honeywell Computer (I christened it "the 'Bun",
a name which has stuck for some reason (see earlier news items for
references)). This machine's software was so bad that it has been
almost completely hidden by the handiwork of a generation of hacks.
The next generation used Unix.
I presume the current generation uses its own personal computers.
It is interesting to note that each generation has some contempt
for the succeeding one, or at least the system they worked with
("Real hacks don't ...").ma155abo@sdcc7.UUCP (Peter Percosan) (11/16/84)
> (The local (world?) record load average for rose (a 780) is over 80!)
Sorry Andy,
Here at UCSD we have seen the load of one of our 780's
exceed 100. We are now fortunate enough to have several
vaxes thus nowhere near the same load since.
-Peter Percosan
*load occured on "sdccsu3" in the winter quarter 1983.chris@byucsa.UUCP (Chris J. Grevstad) (11/16/84)
We are facing the same crunch that most everyone else has. We have 750's
with over 300 active users on two of our three machines. When compiler
class and operating system class get pushing hard near the end of the
semester, people are very hard pressed to get the needed computer time.
The good old days would be nice but we must face the reality of numbers.
The only good solution is more equipment, money for which is extremely
difficult to come by.
--
Chris Grevstad
{ihnp4,noao,mcnc,utah-cs}!arizona!byucsa!chris
O Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz.
My friends all drive Porsches and I must make amends.peterr@utcsrgv.UUCP (Peter Rowley) (11/16/84)
From Hugh Redelmeier:
>I presume the current generation uses its own personal computers.
This is significant difference from the past generations Hugh mentioned,
I believe. Hacking has changed from a way of drawing naturally rather
reclusive people together (by bringing them to a common physical location
for long periods of time) to a way of reinforcing the seclusion.
Now, there *is* a very definite community of "micro hackers" but it
seems much less tightly-knit, and this is understandable-- they just aren't
together for as long hacking. Also, it seems there may be some significance
to the fact that past-generation hacks worked on a common machine, so sharing
software was done in a different way than the current practice of swapping
disks. The relative lack of source availability for micro software affects
the situation too, as does the large amount of commercial software available.
But I won't venture any more "armchair sociology"-- just to say that I
have a gut feeling that there's something interesting going on, that
it *is* different from past generations, and that there is still worth
in providing an undirected, free, totally hackable, physically centralized
facility (need not be a timesharing machine; a network of micros might
do too).
p. rowley, U. Torontodmmartindale@watcgl.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (11/16/84)
> Another involved the Honeywell Computer (I christened it "the 'Bun", > a name which has stuck for some reason (see earlier news items for > references)). This machine's software was so bad that it has been > almost completely hidden by the handiwork of a generation of hacks. > > The next generation used Unix. > > It is interesting to note that each generation has some contempt > for the succeeding one, or at least the system they worked with > ("Real hacks don't ..."). In at least one case, this is simply not true. Most of the UNIX hacks started out as Honeywell hacks - I was the first one who started on UNIX, and never learned the internals of the 'bun. I suspect that the Honeywell hacks who never learned UNIX either graduated before it became available, or were simply more interested in staying with a system they were familiar with. As for contempt, that goes both ways in this business it seems - assembly-language programmers scoff at people who don't know assembly-language, and people who don't know assembly language scoff at those who think it's important. People who like the Honeywell scoff at UNIX's inability to deal with "real machine" features like tape drive allocation and archiving, and people who like UNIX scoff at the Honeywell's half-duplex terminal handling and its inability to call out and the fact that the time-sharing executive is just a batch job. You're right that the the "current generation" of hacks uses microcomputers; but not everyone can afford one, and since the results of that hacking is not generally made available to a larger community of users, there probably is not the same sense of purpose in the work done. I know that if I had a personal computer, I would not worry as much about making its software useable by other people than I would if if other people were going to be the software's principal users.
derek@uwvax.UUCP (Derek Zahn) (11/17/84)
> We are facing the same crunch that most everyone else has. We have 750's > with over 300 active users on two of our three machines. When compiler > class and operating system class get pushing hard near the end of the > semester, people are very hard pressed to get the needed computer time. > > The good old days would be nice but we must face the reality of numbers. > The only good solution is more equipment, money for which is extremely > difficult to come by. > -- Here at a different UW (Wisconsin), of course the situation is similar. It is incredible how much both the hardware and demand for same have increased. Why, just two years ago, I had a class on the department's 11/70, and was glad because I didn't have to use the 11/45! Now we have many more resources but it isn't enough. The instructional 750 has about 450 active users on it and the 780 has about 1000 and its load hovers at 30. Similar situation for the other instructional machines. Even so, a group of us have noticed just this phenomenon at UW -- oppor- tunities for "independent, unsupervised research" (call it hacking if you like) have become nonexistent with this expansion. It's like you leave your hometown and it grows into a city in you absence, and loses that "special" flavor in the meantime. What we are doing about it is attempting to bootstrap an undergraduate projects lab. So far, the hardware it has is modest, but there is a definite and growing interest. Also, declared CS majors are allowed a free account on the 750, and we have set up a big global mail alias for "anyone interested in learning things outside of classwork, and communicating with others of similar intent." This last has worked out rather well, and we are actually getting some people less familiar with unix hacking, etc. interested in learning. It feels good. While not ideal, the situation looks promising for those who didn't have the more relaxed learning atmosphere that I enjoyed. (Gad -- how can I feel old? I am only a senior....) The future need not be bleak. derek -- Derek Zahn @ wisconsin ...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek derek@wisc-rsch.arpa
sroth@muddcs.UUCP (Steve Roth) (11/18/84)
I can sympathize with Jan's feeling of loss at the restrictions on use of
the UW computers: I can see the same thing happening here at Harvey Mudd.
We have one computer here (of about 6 VAXes) on which the base-level user
has any freedom of action, and it is slowly dying here as well. There is
a group of four people, juniors and seniors, who are the "Computer Gods,"
and they have restricted almost all of the more desireable system
functions to themselves. Examples:
- Users have no access to source code for any commands
- Users have no write access (and little read access) to anything
outside their own directories.
- Users have no access to networking facilities for the other
machines on campus (I don't even have access to the USENET post
routine; I conned on of the 4 into posting this for me).
- and so forth.
This is not to say that the 4 are even in agreement amongst themselves;
2 of them agree that the other 2 are being too restrictive, but can do
nothing for fear they will be `cast out' of the 4. This is a sorry
situation and I can sympathize with Jan: I have no sense of loss, but only
a sense of desire for privileges I cannot have.
/Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Roth Harvey Mudd College Claremont, California
{ihnp4, allegra, seismo}!scgvaxd!muddcs!sroth (714) 625-1006russell@muddcs.UUCP (Russell Shilling) (11/20/84)
[bugs get free computing time]
Following the discussion about free access leads me to ONE
conclusion about all the systems and colleges discussed:
EVERYONE NEEDS MORE COMPUTERS (hardware, not time) !!
If anyone disagrees with this statement, then you aren't
listening to/reading the discussion. I agree with everyone that
free access to computers is a very good thing. I have good access
priveleges on the system I use regularly, and have enjoyed it
tremendously. I would not have nearly the knowledge of the system
that I do if I had the (non-)priveleges as others do here.
At Mudd, there are NO charges for computing time on any
of the machines, and almost anyone with any sort of reason at all
can get an account on any of the machines, FREE.
But, there are practical considerations concerning the staff
here. These are: Terminals (we have eight for general use),
Disk space (we have ONE ra81), Lack of Dial-up Lines and Modems
(we have ONE dial-in, through which comes all uucp), and the load of
multiple users on our little VAX750 (as noted in a previous posting,
when the classes in op-sys, compilers, etc. get rolling, the load gets
pretty high).
Thus, we have made the decision to restrict access to some of
the facilities which might be considered desirable to a 'hacker', i.e.
network access, news posting, source code access...
Personally, I would like to see the system opened up more to
the users, but again, practical considerations come up. For instance,
if we allow networking, will that cause people to use one of our eight
terminals to log into another system if that one is crowded ? We cannot
afford to let the system get tied up, or even go down, because approximately
100 students at a time may be taking computer classes, all with weekly
(or so) assignments, (and of course they all wait until the night before
the assignment is due before they start coding :-).
Perhaps our problems here could be solved, if anyone out there
would like to donate 1) a VAX 780, 2) an RA#any#, 3) 3+ Meg memory,
4) terminals (vt220, or similar) ;=} If we receive any of the above,
perhaps we could open up the computing facilities here more, in fact,
for the first ten donations of VAX 780's, we will provide a lifetime
account on the system of your choice :-)
Hopefully, with time, we will acquire the hardware we need to
provide REAL accessible computing facilities, but for now, it remains
in the realm of the sysops here.
--
Russell Shilling
UUCP: { allegra, ihnp4, seismo }!scgvaxd!muddcs!russell
ARPA: muddcs!russell@ucla-cs
Always eat from the four basic food groups:
Beer, Ice Cream, Chips and Salsatli@uscvax.UUCP (Tony Li) (11/22/84)
> At Mudd, there are NO charges for computing time on any > of the machines, and almost anyone with any sort of reason at all > can get an account on any of the machines, FREE. > > But, there are practical considerations concerning the staff > here. These are: Terminals (we have eight for general use), > Disk space (we have ONE ra81), Lack of Dial-up Lines and Modems > (we have ONE dial-in, through which comes all uucp), and the load of > multiple users on our little VAX750 (as noted in a previous posting, > when the classes in op-sys, compilers, etc. get rolling, the load gets > pretty high). > > Thus, we have made the decision to restrict access to some of > the facilities which might be considered desirable to a 'hacker', i.e. > network access, news posting, source code access... > > Personally, I would like to see the system opened up more to > the users, but again, practical considerations come up. For instance, > if we allow networking, will that cause people to use one of our eight > terminals to log into another system if that one is crowded ? We cannot > afford to let the system get tied up, or even go down, because approximately > 100 students at a time may be taking computer classes, all with weekly > (or so) assignments, (and of course they all wait until the night before > the assignment is due before they start coding :-). As a Mudd alum, I'm not at all in agreement with what I hear. Historically, Mudd has been very generous with the computing facilities, and yes, computing has been free. However, in recent years, Mudd has roughly tripled their computing capacity. In concert with this, more restrictions exist on computing than ever before. I think that all of these wonderful restrictions are very useful. Since people want to learn about computers, we'll give them an account. Then, when they want to REALLY use the computer, we'll tell them they can't. Sigh. How neanderthal. Yes, there are some problems with resource allocation in any bounded system. Erlinger's Lemma (pardon me, Mike, I can't resist) says it all: "Mudd can absorb computers until there's a terminal on every desk". No, I find the spirit of these restrictions very discordant with the nature of Mudd. In ye olden days of KA10's, 1 Vax, and the good 'ol IMLAC, we would share. Yes, there were few resources, but they were completely shared. At Mudd, there are no privileged people. Tony Li, HMC '82 Computer Science -- Tony Li ;-) Usc Computer Science Uucp: {sdcrdcf,randvax}!uscvax!tli Csnet: tli@usc-cse.csnet Arpa: tli@usc-ecl
mp@ganehd.UUCP (Scott Barman) (11/26/84)
<>
I wish I can say that at the University of Georgia computing is free
and undirected. It isn't and is one of the reasons I have decided not to fight
it and just leave (I got a job waiting in NY for me).
The student user here at UGA uses an IBM 370/158 dual processor (ughh)
running the McGill University System for Interactive Computing (MUSIC). After
beating on it for nearly three years, I have come to the conclusion it is a
glorified keypunch machine (I unfortunatly learned programming on one). Almost
all computer classes (CS, Management Sciences, Statistics, etc.) are taught
on this machine. It is nearly always overloaded (now there are 98 users on it
and it took me 2 minutes just to logon and issue the command to tell me how
many users on on the system), disk space is in short supply, and there are
only two 1200 baud and five 300 baud telephone lines into the machine.
Output from this machine is sent to an IBM 3081 and JES3 sends it to
the appropriate printers. An accidentally generated hexidecimal dump of the
disk (done twice in the last three days) caused the JES spooling space to be
non-existant. Students are restricted to the amount of time their programs
or batch jobs are allowed to run (measured in Service Units - somewhat
equivalent to a CPU second) and is too low for many of the upper level
CS projects (the few that can be done on the machine! It has no ISAM nor
a way of simulating that except under WATBOL :-( and supports direct access
under FORTRAN only).
It's becomming a real pain-in-the-rump.
Not only are they using this operating system (which looks almost
like an interactive MVS environment) but they are limiting access. Only
undergraduates can use this machine without being in a class (changing for
next quarter). Graduate students must be enrolled in a class using the
computer in order to get an id. All IDs (with some exceptions and an act from
congress :-)) are purged at the end of a quarter. Faculty IDs can be saved
on request and classes that are multi-quarter sequences can have the
whole class saved on request. The key word is "on request". Being an account
manager (as one of my many duties), I have to keep up with all of this, their
stupid policy changes, and try to make everyone in my department happy.
I can only wish my successor better luck!
UGA also owns an IBM 3081-D (running MVS/TSO), CDC Cyber 170/750
(running that kludge NOS 2.2), two DEC VAX 11/780 (running VMS), another
IBM 370, and a Cyber 205 (ha ha ha). Nobody can use the VAXen since one
is used by COSMIC (cheap NASA Software) and the other is used for a bogus
Computer Based Education project (only 1 person is left with the project).
The other IBM 370 is running MARVEL (a less than wonderful library automation
system running under CICS/VS <gag>), and nobody around here has any use
for the Cyber 205. As for the IBM 3081 and Cyber 750, we can't use them
because they cost too much! You see, the UGA Comp. Center, in its infinite
wisdom, charges each department for computer time on these machines. With
enough students taking courses, we cannot justify giving them userids on these
machines since we are not allocated enough money. If the department runs
out of money, and we can't beg for enough to continue (and I do mean BEG), then
all userids are shut off until money can be found (manufactured, printed,
stolen, etc.).
The Department of Computer Science currently owns a CDC Cyber 18/30.
This machine is eight years old and only useful for a couple of small projects.
The department is getting a Harris H800 for research purposes, but that still
doesn't take care of the academic computing problem. Our knee pads are wearing
out from crawling to the dean's and president's office for more money so we
can purchase hardware. It never works! The president's advisor for computing
is the same person who got the Cyber 205 and a machine room full of (mostly)
IBM and CDC equipment. He also has no intention of letting CS build to become
a powerful department because it will take some of the shine off his comp.
center. All we can do is hope this man retires early!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
UGA is 200 years old this year; the oldest state charterd university
(sorry UNC, Georgia was charterd first!) and the computing facilities are
atleast 10 years behind the times! There is no relief in site from any level
(and I understand that Georgia Tech is also beginning to feel the money
problem from the state, too)! I sometimes wonder what they really do in
Atlanta with all our tax money because the flagship University for the state
system is in trouble and I don't think they care!
And people are wonder why I am leaving!!!!
(all they use at the job I'm going to is UN*X!)
--
Scott A. Barman
UUCP: {akgua, gatech}!ganehd!mp (until Nov 28!
gone after that!)kvc@scgvaxd.UUCP (Kevin Carosso) (11/26/84)
Tony, for once we are in agreement with you! However, you will be pleased to
know that people can still hack at Harvey Mudd; they just have to pick a better
system than muddcs. As you know, we (Ned and Dan) are the managers of the ymir
machine, which is operated by the Mathematics Department at HMC. I cannot speak
for muddcs, but to illustrate how our system is run we would like to answer
Steve Roth's criticisms of muddcs insofar as they apply to ymir:
(1) "Users have no access to source code for any commands."
ymir runs VMS, which does not include full source to the operating system.
There are times that the source would sure be handy but we can't do much
about it; a source license is way too expensive. In reality though, this
does not hinder hacking, since its pretty easy to add all sorts of bells
and whistles to VMS. We have been happily hacking without source for
several years and don't miss it all that much.
Listings of the VMS source are available on microfiche, so you can at least
see how things work. We have a microfiche reader to read them. The
microfiche themselves are kept under lock and key (not a good policy in our
opinion, but they do cost a lot) but students can borrow them for limited
periods of time.
Sources to locally written programs are all user readable. When we have
source to various vendor software packages such as Template, TeX, SLATEC,
SMP and TCP/IP, we protect it as little as our license agreements allow.
Unlike the other systems at HMC, the help files for all system programs,
including the "dangerous" ones, are readable. We figure that it makes no
difference if you know how to use system utilities like AUTHORIZE, SYSGEN
and DISKQUOTA. We think it is preposterous to try and hide such things --
which other system managers around here do -- its like a cat trying to
cover up its mess on a linoleum floor. A student can, after all, buy VMS
documentation themselves straight from DEC and learn more than they
would ever want to know about these things.
(2) "Users have no write access (and little read access) to anything
outside their own directories."
On ymir the default is for all files to be group readable, so people can
read the files of other people in their own group (which are likely to be
the ones they are interested in). Of course, some users protect their own
files -- they do have a right to their privacy. I (Ned) personally leave all
my personal crap world-readable on the off-chance it might be useful to
someone nosing around. When users have a reason to write something somewhere
that somewhere is probably not protected -- the UUCP spooling areas are such
a place. We maintain this policy in spite of several rather nasty abuses
that have occurred in the past; we feel that the cure of protecting the
system to the hilt is worse than the disease.
(3) "Users have no access to networking facilities for the other
machines on campus."
All ymir users can access DECnet, TCP/IP and UUCP, which covers all the
networking stuff we have. We don't have netnews. This means you can send
mail to systems outside HMC and you can access all other systems on campus.
(4) The final question -- free access.
We routinely give accounts to any student who asks for one. Accounts have
reasonable amounts of disk space, and disk allocation can be easily increased
(a simple verbal request usually does it). User accounts are not granted any
special privileges, but when someone is interested in writing privileged code
they can request any privileges they need and they will usually be granted;
we do have to clear such privileged users with the management of the other
computer systems on the network. This is part of our agreement with the
management of the other systems (including muddcs). We must protect the
network from "unauthorized access", or we will be thrown off it ourselves. We
don't like it, but the network is not under ymir's jurisdiction and access to
it is not controlled by ymir policies.
As you can see, we are a small group of hackers working within a much larger
political structure. We don't particularly like the structure, but it is a
compromise that we have learned to live with. It is reality, and we are sure
that it is not much different from situations that have surrounded hacking
elsewhere. This sort of thing sure existed back in the days of the KA-10 that
Tony recalls with such fondness! We have done what most hackers have to do and
carved ourselves a workable, stable niche from which we can hack with impunity.
Steve is not the only one who has chafed under the muddcs management policies.
Here are a couple of our own beefs:
(1) muddcs cannot be taken down for system work except on Saturday mornings.
By contrast, ymir has no fixed system downtime policy. If we have to do
something, we find a time when few people are using ymir, we warn the
users and then we do it. We are considerate to users but not to the point
of hamstringing ourselves. Like muddcs, we do have a lot of classwork and
so on that is done on ymir, but such inflexible policies are unnecessary
even so. (Note: Comparing average interactive usage data seems to indicate
that ymir is used about the same amount as muddcs.)
We once got in quite a bit of trouble once for taking down muddcs without
permission. When we were writing the VMS end of our TCP/IP network (as
requested by the management of muddcs) we had to take down muddcs in order
to restart their networking software. The system was completely idle at the
time, but from the trouble it caused you might have thought that we killed
an active system and cost dozens of users many weeks of work.
(2) Access to the ymir machine room is available to everyone who needs it. For
example, the four muddcs Gods Steve mentions have always had access to our
machine room. By contrast, despite our need to get into the muddcs machine
room (we share a tape drive with them) we are denied access unless a God is
present. No doubt we intend to crash their machine again.
(3) Although we expect users to behave reasonably on ymir, we do not subject
people to the indignity of having to sign a document saying they will be
nice. We do not assume people are irresponsible. muddcs requires such a
signature prior to giving anyone an account.
Russell Schilling points out that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of
the few", i.e. classwork on muddcs necessitates a lot of system restrictions.
With all due respect, Russell, that's a load of bull. Sure, some restrictions
are needed, but its a question of degree. I have been working on computer
systems at HMC for about seven years now and I have never seen a system as
restrictive as muddcs. Even the old DEC-10, which was used for administrative
work including student accounts and grades, was nowhere near as restrictive as
muddcs despite the sensitive nature of the data it contained. Student hackers
were given quite a bit of freedom on that machine.
This whole attitude becomes even more ludicrous when you consider where a lot
of the software that all those classes use comes from. Hackers, that's where!
It has always proved to be in our own best interest to encourage exploration
and exploitation of the machines at HMC.
The thing that peeves me (Ned) the most is that the original hype we were fed
about muddcs when it was originally set up was to the effect that it was to
be the "hackers machine", where people who disliked the management policies
of the other campus machines could gain the freedom they needed. UNIX, God's
gift to operating systems, would allow all users to make OS modifications with
no problems, everyone would coexist in peace and harmony, etc. Now we find that
the truth is not so pretty. And it is all so unnecessary. Protect your system
with your own knowledge, not with the ignorance of your users. By the time a
user learns enough to circumvent a hacker they will BE a hacker.
The math department at HMC has a long tradition of hackers associated with it
that has been firmly in place since 1971. It has been a long and profitable
liason that has been challenged countless times over the years by just about
everybody -- HMC administration, the other departments (especially Computer
Science) and even outsiders. The math department has backed hackers at every
turn, protecting them from the wrath of others and in many cases taking
punishments on itself. We hackers owe them a hell of a big debt for this.
We repay it by making ymir into a superior system. This arrangement is
alive and well today and shows no signs of breaking down.
------------------------
Ned Freed (HMC '82) scgvaxd!ymir!mathmgr engvax!ymir!mathmgr@CIT-VAX
Kevin Carosso (HMC '82) scgvaxd!engvax!kvc engvax!kvc@CIT-VAX
Dan Newman (HMC '85) scgvaxd!ymir!dan engvax!ymir!dan@CIT-VAXarnold@gatech.UUCP (Mister Snuffle-upagus) (11/28/84)
> UGA is 200 years old this year; the oldest state charterd university > (sorry UNC, Georgia was charterd first!) and the computing facilities are > atleast 10 years behind the times! There is no relief in site from any level > (and I understand that Georgia Tech is also beginning to feel the money > problem from the state, too)! I sometimes wonder what they really do in > Atlanta with all our tax money because the flagship University for the state > system is in trouble and I don't think they care! > > And people are wonder why I am leaving!!!! > (all they use at the job I'm going to is UN*X!) > -- > Scott A. Barman > UUCP: {akgua, gatech}!ganehd!mp (until Nov 28! > gone after that!) Things aren't exactly wonderful here at Georgia Tech, either. We are not "starting" to feel the money crunch; we've been feeling it for several years now. Let me elaborate. (Sorry that this is so long) Computing facilities for the campus are provided by the Office of Computing Services: two CDC Cyber 170/855's and one IBM 4341. The cyber's are used for undergraduate education (all schools, not just us - ICS), and for research computing. The IBM 4341 is used by the administration (payroll etc), almost nobody else can get to it. The cybers are also used for some of the graduate ICS courses. Let me tell you, NOS is no fun. And all but the ICS grad students leave here thinking that Cybers and NOS (and Pascal!) are what Computing is all about. Here in ICS, things could be better too. We have one Prime P400 two P550-I's, which are aging and decaying rapidly. We have been ordered to phase them out. Undergraduates are being moved to the cybers, and graduates and faculty to a Pyramid that OCS has on a trial basis (gitpyr is the site). But the decision on whether we will purchase the Pyramid is still in limbo. How's that for planning? The Vax 780 on which I'm writing this is our CSnet machine, limited to faculty, staff and some of the grad students (mainly PhD). It is starting to get overloaded. Disk space is already fairly tight (4 300Mbyte storage modules), and at certain times, the load average gets up around 10. Under 4.1, response time gets pretty bad. HP donated an HP 300/44 to ICS -- this machine exists in its own little world. It is used for about 3 undergraduate classes, and from what I hear, HP's OS and Pascal compiler aren't exactly user friendly. There is NO communication between it and any other machine (file or mail transfer). In fact, there is very little communication between any of the machines, short of tape transfers. Three 750's have arrived, but those are for research. One is on loan to the ICS lab (site nimbus), but they only have one DZ each (i.e. 8 ports), and you can't put too many people on a 750 before it thrashes itself to death. We are pushing to have OCS supply 4.2 Unix cycles for instruction (the pyramid is a tentative first step in that direction), but the money has to be found to buy the pyramid, and that is only a 32 user machine. We could easily use 2 or 3 pyramids if we wanted to put all our classes on Unix machines (which we do). But it is very doubtful that the administration would come up with the money for them. I (personally) doubt that we'll even keep the one we have. This is not OCS's fault; they would be happy to move towards UNIX, but the administration is strangling them. The administration is also pretty tight with funds for ICS. We are not able to recruit faculty as well as we'd like to, and the laboratory (where I am on the staff) is very understaffed. Due to all this, Georgia Tech has lost out twice in the past year to other schools to bring in Industrial Research. The Microcomputer Technology Development group (or whatever they're called -- the consortium of 9 corporations) chose UT-Austin over us, and the DoD chose Carnegie Mellon over us for their Software Development Institute (I forget the name). Both of these would have brought a lot of high technology companies into Atlanta and Georgia, or created them here, but since Georgia Tech couldn't hack it (cause we don't have the resources) they went elsewhere. I suppose things are better than they were: At least we do have some Unix machines within ICS, and OCS knows what Unix is and is interested in going in that direction. And OCS has eliminated all its card punches. All undergraduate classes have to use terminals, and there is a campus wide local network. But, if Georgia Tech, which is the other flagship University (there are other schools beside UGA, Scott!), is going to "stay" on the forefront, and attract high technology to Georgia, the administration, Board of Regents, and the legislature are all going to have to get on the ball. Needless to say, all opinions expressed here are my own, not those of my bosses, coworkers, Georgia Tech, etc. -- Arnold Robbins CSNET: arnold@gatech ARPA: arnold%gatech.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa UUCP: { akgua, allegra, hplabs, ihnp4 }!gatech!arnold !gitpyr!arnold !stratus!nimbus!arnold Can you tell me how to get, how to get to Sesame Street?
scott@gitpyr.UUCP (Scott Holt) (11/28/84)
Here at Ga. Tech. the computing services department operates a good deal of
the campus computing power. We run 2 Cyber 180/855's running NOS 2.2,
2 IBM 4341 running VM (yeach) and a Pyramid 90x. We also have a Net/One LAN
that connects the central computers and many departmental machines to over 1000
terminals. The Cybers are for general campus computing and are used for a large
ammount of the course load, each one usualy supports over 100 users at once. One
IBM is used by Administration and the other is used by the Engineering College.
The Pyramid is being tested and supports a few classes in graphics and
compilers.
The Computer Science department supports several mini computers and about 100
PC's. Included are Vax 780 (gatech) 3 750's, 1 HP 3000, an HP 1000, an IBM 4361
4 or 5 Series ones, 2 Symbolics Lisp machines, and 3 rapidly deteriorating
PR1ME's running a system called SWT, a Unix like shell over PR1MEOS. Most of
theses resources are for graduate work. The HP 3000 is used for the first
freshman programming classes and the 4361, together with the Series 1s and the
PCs, is used for a CAI project which supports several classes in both ICS and
other departments, the PR1ME is a general student machine.
Of all these resources, not much is used for so called 'free computing' and
'hacking' is virtualy nil. This does not mean that computer access is very
restrictive. The SWT system that runs on the PR1MEs was written as a student
project, a large ammount of software for the Cybers was written outside of
class by students and student employees, and most of the system support for
the HP 3000 and IBM 4361 comes from student employees.
Although students are not given accounts automaticly, an account on the Cyber
system is relativly easy to come by...in fact, there is a large group of high
school students who are given accounts on the system just because of their
interest in computers. ICS students are allowed accounts on the PR1ME just
by asking an intructor, but the machine is being phased out on favor of a better
system.
Eventualy, as we get more resources from the appropriate dieties, access to
computers will become even less restricted. 'Hacking' at operating system code,
however, won't become widespread just because of the large number of users
supported on the various machines. Hopefully, we will get more machines, like
the VAXes, for research.
- Scott Holt
...gatech!gitpyr!scott
--
---------
Yes, I'm allright....ayeeee Haaa Haaa Haaa!!!!
Scott Holt
Po Box 36199
Georgia Institute of Technology
Atlanta, GA 30332
...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!scott
...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!gitpyr!scottdjl@fisher.UUCP (Dan Levin N6BZA ) (11/30/84)
>Isn't everybody tired of hearing these students complain about being able to >get machine time? This discussion started off with the topic of *restrictions* on *use* of computers, not their general availability. While many schools have a basic lack of hardware, in many cases (apparently HMC is a good example), the problem is not lack of hardware, but over regulation of its use. >Little or none availible machine resources is the way most of the real world >is. If there are not enough comnputing resources around,us in the real world >also have to beg and plead with the boss ,board of governors,etc ... It seems >that these universities are trying finally teaching students something they >can use later in life. Here at Princeton, the UN*X resources of the campus as a whole include no less than 11 750's, 2 780's, 2 90x's, and ~15 SUN's. Yet, absolutely none of them are open to a random member of the student body. Some of the more enlightened professors work with undergrads on software projects, (the official FUN machine's Professor Honeyman for example) but the mere mention of an undergrad working to improve the software on one of the Computer Center's machines is enough to send the administration into fits. In the real world, if I can prove that I can contribute to a company, I might well get a chance to do so. Here, anyone who can prove they know UN*X well enough to make constructive criticism of the system administrators (all paid professionals at PUCC at least) is labled a dangerous security threat. -- ***dan {allegra,astrovax,princeton,twg}!fisher!djl The misplaced (What *are* those trees doing??) Californian
dmmartindale@watcgl.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (11/30/84)
> Little or none availible machine resources is the way most of the real world > is. If there are not enough comnputing resources around,us in the real world > also have to beg and plead with the boss ,board of governors,etc ... It seems > that these universities are trying finally teaching students something they > can use later in life. In business, when a department head cannot get the > resources he wants from the EDP department,he usually goes out and buys a PC. > (Yes, thats as in IBM). Let me see if I understand you. You seem to be saying that dealing with inadequate computing resources is one of the more valuable things that a university teaches - it's something we (the students) can actually use in later life. Hogwash. I don't know what kind of code you write for a living, but I actually make use of at least some of the knowledge picked up from taking courses and extracurricular computing. Lack of machine resources just interferes with this learning process. And learning about computing was the reason I took the courses, not learning about frustration. > When I was in school, we were more concerned with finding a good keypunch > machine that worked, crts were also in short supply. But obviously I and > alot of other people learned the tools of the trade under those conditions. Right, and anyone who would like conditions to be better than those you lived with is simply a wimp? > One of the best ways to learn computing is through work/study programs such > as the coop program. Then you learn what computers are really used for. Oh, did you actually participate in a co-op program? Waterloo is one of the largest co-op schools (for CS) on the continent and I've known a number of people who were in that program. Generally, employers want the co-op student to accomplish "real work" on their work term and assign them to jobs that seem to be suited to their level of knowledge and experience. This usually does NOT include mucking about in the innards of the operating system on their machine. On the other hand, I obtained considerable experience working on an operating system of a "free computer" at Waterloo, experience I consider far more valuable than virtually all of the co-op jobs that people relate to me. It's true that I didn't get paid for the work, but then I was free to work on what was interesting to me rather than what someone else needed done right now. Now, I'm sure you'll consider that learning something "interesting" is a waste of time compared to learning something "useful in the real world". But, all in all, I have no regrets that I learned the innards of UNIX rather than how to deal with one of IBM's operating systems or transaction processing packages or whatever I would have learned in a job doing something "useful".
marie@harvard.ARPA (Marie Desjardins) (11/30/84)
> Isn't everybody tired of hearing these students complain about being able to > get machine time? No. > It seems > that these universities are trying finally teaching students something they > can use later in life. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If the computer shortage is teaching us anything, it's purely coincidental. In addition, I'm not as worried about people not being able to get free computer time as I am about the fact that we have limited enough resources that it's very difficult to do course work. > My solution for these students is to either go out and buy PC's (maybe even > a apple) to get around to large problem, or try to get more money from > your alumni for more computing facilities. Unless of course you wish to pay > higher tuition fees,thats another way for the university to afford more > computers. Where do you expect students to get the money for a computer? Lots don't have it. And I really find it hard to believe that Harvard (for example) doesn't have the money to buy more computers. They just prefer to spend it on other things. marie desjardins marie@harvard
abc@brl-tgr.ARPA (Brint Cooper ) (12/20/84)
> > > > Sure, and you learn biology with nothing more than a pencil and a > > magnifying glass, but not as well as you could learn it in a fully > > equiped lab, all other factors being the same. > > > No. The best way to learn is to read. Nothing has come close to the > *WELL STUDIED* text book for imparting maximum information in minimum > time. It is not as much fun as 'hands on'. It takes effort to read. > It is enhanced by a good instructor and well planned exercises. These > may be computer based exercises or 'hand graded'. Doesn't make a bit of > difference if your syntax error was found by the instructor, a computer, > or the student in the next seat. > > E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems Boy, I sure am glad that E. Michael Smith is not the surgeon who cut my chest open in June! Brint