jevans@phoenix.UUCP (Janet Evans) (02/24/86)
This message doesn't "really" belong in either of these groups, but these are my closest guesses. I apologize if this is somehow inappropriate. A very good friend has been depressed for a while (he mentions it occasionally). Tonight he asked me for help, and I know dangerously little about the subject (i.e. I'm as likely to steer him wrong as I am to help him, and I don't want to screw things up further). Two questions: Can anyone point me to specific texts/papers on the subject (that either of us should read), and can anyone make any suggestions about the specific problem (described below)? Thanks. My friend is a fourth year grad student at one of the better known universities for CS. He feels that he is making inadequate progress (despite what his advisor has to say) and that he doesn't know any more about CS than the average undergrad (no offense meant to any undergrads out there). I've tried to explain to him how little the average undergrad can do compared to a grad student, but with no luck. He constantly thinks he's hopelessly incompetent (as grad students go) and hopelessly far behind (he's about a semester behind, I think, but that's not abnormal at this school). He is probably accurate in stating that he is not a very good grad student, though I have different reasons than he does. (I think it's because he doesn't know what he wants yet, but he appears to be at least competent in what he does.) I'm trying to get him more involved in some other activities. I have suggested that he ignore school for a few days and just go off and do something different (or do nothing at all, for that matter) but he laughed and said he'd be even more behind then. I think he is thinking about dropping out of school for a while, but that he is having trouble dealing with that thought (it would be an acknowledgement of failure, or something). He went through school at an abnormally high pace, so I suspect he's never really had problems like this before. (I doubt he's suicidal, by the way; I think he looks down on that way out of problems.) Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Please post replies; this machine is going away in a few days (but some friends will make me hard copies of replies). Thank you very much.
citrin@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Wayne Citrin) (03/03/86)
This is an interesting question. You don't say how many years of graduate study your friend has had. Many new graduate students here in the Computer Science department at Berkeley have feelings of inadequacy that generally last until the middle of the second year. The lack of any support facilities in the department doesn't help. Generally these students work hard for those first three semesters and by that time have gotten over it. Just about everyone I know here has felt this way. Aside from that situation, which I did experience and did get over, I had a similar problem last year (my fourth year). It wasn't related to feelings of inadequacy, but to burnout. I had just spent several months preparing for qualifying exams when they had to be postponed a week before I was to take them because a professor on the committee couldn't make it. I tried to go back to work, but after a month I realized that I hadn't done anything. I went to my advisor and told him that I wasn't satisfied with my progress and thought that a year off might be good for me. My advisor, who thought my work was fine, thought that leaving for a year was too rash and suggested I take a month vacation. Basically, I decided to stay away from the department for a month. I visited my family for about a week, came back and spent some days doing nothing, other days traveling, bought a car, did some consulting, in other words, I did everything but worry about my schoolwork. After a month, I came back and was ready to work. The moral of this story for your friend is that taking about a month off is a good idea and that he shouldn't worry about fallling behind. Timetables mean very little in grad school, and the ones that do exist can be bent with the help of one's advisor. Don't worry about getting out in five years instead of four; it really doesn't matter. Wayne Citrin (ucbvax!citrin)
garry@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Garry Wiegand) (03/03/86)
With reference to the graduate student friend who feels inadequate/ incompetent/confused and is becoming depressed [public posting requested]: I've been there! Beating your head against the wall doesn't help! After a certain point things start becoming self-fulfilling - you don't work well, you feel bad about it, you avoid work, you acquire guilt/indequacy feelings, so you don't like work, so you don't work well... It's a nasty cycle. !!TAKE A LEAVE OF ABSENCE!! The sky will not fall! Your school will not tell you you're an Evil human being (if they do, they're more fouled up than you are.) If you present it just as something you Have To Do, parents/advisers/administrators can be surprisingly supportive - you've got some respect accumulated by having made it as far as you have (even if you feel you haven't done anything "recently" to earn it.) Most graduate schools, if you were worth having to begin with, will cheerfully take you back when you're ready. Ask what the policy is! (One of my old schools took the pleasant position that once you were admitted you were admitted, period, forever.) There may be a problem for a term finding financial aid for you, but I've seen schools scramble on someone's behalf well above and beyond the call of duty. (Maybe they do the scrambling because they like you *more* for having gone away AND come back.) Teach sailing, work in a factory, let your brain cells cool down and straighten themselves out - 12 years plus 4 years plus 5 years can be a long time at one stretch for anybody! I wish someone had told ME this at the right time. Hope it helps. garry wiegand / older and a little wiser garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu garry@128.84.253.8 (we're having addressing problems)
jdz@wucec2.UUCP (03/04/86)
In article <120@phoenix.UUCP> jevans@phoenix.UUCP (Janet Evans) writes: >A very good friend has been depressed for a while (he mentions it >occasionally). Tonight he asked me for help, and I know dangerously little >about the subject (i.e. I'm as likely to steer him wrong as I am to help him, >and I don't want to screw things up further). Two questions: Can anyone point >me to specific texts/papers on the subject (that either of us should read), >and can anyone make any suggestions about the specific problem (described >below)? Thanks. Firstly, I am a trained peer counselor and am on the staff of the Peer Counseling and Resource Center at Washington University. This (I hope) implies that I know something about the topic. I strongly recommend that you not attempt to counsel the person yourself. I know the temptation is strong, but your fear of "screwing up" is a realistic one. (Not that I don't have the same fear; the training I've received just makes it a little less likely and perhaps more easily handled) I suggest you steer your friend to the Student Counseling Service or its counterpart on campus. If none exists, the Health Service (or counterpart) should be of assistance. If your school makes no provisions for care of the mental health of its students, I'd bitch like hell at someon to find out why. If you have a peer counseling group on campus, I suggest you not steer your friend to them. Empathy is a large part of counseling; undergrads, no matter how well trained, will probably have a difficult time working with a client much older than themselves (as your friend is). I also hope you will be careful with yourself when trying to help your friend. Counseling depressed people is a very draining and depressing thing in and of itself; if you do decide to help this person on your own, be sure to take care of yourself as well. I can't recommend any books or papers off the top of my head, especially since our own training materials are written here by the staff of PCRC with help from the professionals at the Student Counseling Service. If I come across any ref's at home, I'll post again. Good luck and be careful. -- Jason D. Zions ...!{seismo,cbosgd,ihnp4}!wucs!wucec2!jdz Box 1045 Washington University St. Louis MO 63130 USA (314) 889-6160 Nope, I didn't say nothing. Just random noise.
wjr@frog.UUCP (STella Calvert) (03/05/86)
In article <120@phoenix.UUCP> jevans@phoenix.UUCP (Janet Evans) writes: <about a friend of hers who is afraid of being "found out" as an inadequate grad student> I regret that I can't pull the title of a book I glanced at in a mall out of my flakey memory. The author's main thesis seemed to be that people who have a history of achievement are prone to be afraid of being exposed as a faker/failure. After all, you don't really deserve to win big unless you _suffer_ for it. You can probably find the book by poking around the self-improvement/feelgood section of a slick bookstore if this doesn't provoke someone else into posting the title. (I'm sorry, but I spent less than five minutes flipping pages....) (It might have been _The Impostor <something>_....) >He went through school at an abnormally high pace, so I suspect he's never >really had problems like this before. Exactly! When I was an overconfident undergraduate I really felt like an idiot when my average dropped the term I tried taking two languages simultaneously. If you're used to school not being a challenge, it really boggles you the first time you hit something that makes you work for a change. And by the time that happens, you can easily be so close to graduation that you're tempted to try to bruteforce a solution, rather than taking the time off you deserve. If your friend galloped through school to this point, it might be a good idea for him to _consider_ taking a term or year off, travelling, or whatever his relaxation of choice might be. To be a graduate student, he must have been doing school more or less continuously for _sixteen_ years or so. He owes himself a break! And it seems to me that his emotions are trying to tell him. It also occurs to me that he might be working up a case of separation anxiety -- for more than 16 years his world has been a series of classrooms. And now he's really close to being forced to give up student status -- how many post-grad degrees can you get? Could this be part of it? >(I doubt he's suicidal, by the way; >I think he looks down on that way out of problems.) That doesn't necessarily prevent someone from trying suicide. In fact, if you define suicide as the weakling's way out, and simultaneously find impulses toward death in your mind, this doesn't exactly help your self-image. ("Only a gutless wonder would consider suicide." "But I'm considering suicide!" "Then go ahead, the world doesn't need gutless wonders." Amazing how we use our values to tie our heads in knots, isn't it....) I'd suggest that he find some way of opting out for a few days (or longer, if he chooses -- even much longer!). I've dropped out and returned to school with considerable benefit from the non-academic learning. He might even consider working for a while (does he have any non-computer interests he could market for a more complete change of pace?) But the most important thing (I think) you can do for him is to let him know that you care, and that he's not the only person to be close to the end of his studies to be nervous about whether or not he's prepared to face what we laughingly (cryingly?) call the REAL WORLD. STella Calvert Do what thou wilt -- not just a good idea, it's the law! Guest on Account: ...!mit-eddie!frog!wjr Life: Baltimore!AnnArbor!<LongStrangeTrip>!Taxachusetts Future: ... (!L5!TheBelt!InterstellarSpace)
suhre@trwrba.UUCP (Maurice E. Suhre) (03/07/86)
In article <681@frog.UUCP> wjr@frog.UUCP (STella Calvert) writes: >If you're used to school not being a challenge, it >really boggles you the first time you hit something that makes you >work for a change. This really hit home for me. I was fumbling around trying to study for my prelims and not getting anywhere. I had, without realizing it, been getting more and more depressed over my mother's death. Also, I was used to having school be easy and to be "spoon fed" via the lectures. Now that I had to do it on my own, I was in trouble. Aggravating all this was my perfectionism which told me that I should know everything about everything for the prelims. There was also some sexual dysfunction that I had stuck on the back shelf. But I won't go into that here..... Believe me, I was screwed up. The way out was to start therapy. I probably had a notion that I would need therapy some day, and a friend in the National Guard named Charlie sort of talked me into it. 'Twas very helpful. My first reaction was to brighten up because I thought/hoped that Mrs. Roosa was going to "fix" me. Then I sank back a little because I realized that I was going to have to do the *work*. (What an awful word :-) I did 3 years with her, and managed to pass the prelims, complete a dissertation, have one rather screwed up relationship. I wasn't able to really get straightened out with women in that time frame. BTW, suicide had never been on my mind. Maurice {decvax,sdcrdcf,ihnp4,ucbvax}!trwrb!suhre
chen@gitpyr.UUCP (03/09/86)
I was a Peer Counselor as an undergraduate at Princeton University. I strongly agree with everything Jason Zions wrote. I'd like to add a few things, though. I, too, strongly recommend getting him to some sort of professional counseling (at the Health Center or the Chapel) as opposed to counseling him yourself. However many people, especially those used to thinking of themselves as achievers, aren't comfortable with the idea of seeking professional counseling. If the school doesn't have counselors available or if your friend refuses to see them, check with the school's counterpart to the Dean of the Chapel. Most chaplains/ priests/rabbis/etc. at schools are trained in counseling and most school chapels are non-demoninational. So if your friend is more comfortable in that kind of setting, you may be able to find someone there who can help him. Take care of yourself, though. Since you obviously care about your friend, I have no doubt that you'll be at least listening to his problems, even if he does get professional counseling. If you find his problems taking up a lot of your time or energy, don't hesistate to see someone for yourself if you feel things might be getting out of control. Now I'm sure I'm overreacting on this next point, but you did post to net.suicide and so I got a little nervous... If you think it will help your peace of mind, go spend a little time at the Health Center or the Chapel and find out what you should do in case you think someone is going to commit suicide. You'll probably and hopefully never have to use the information but at the very least you may feel better knowing that you have some plan of action should the situation ever come up in your life. Good luck. Ray Chen gatech!gitpyr!chen "Be careful out there..." -- Hill Street Blues