matt@rocky2.UUCP (Matt Blaze) (01/30/86)
Just to add one additional comment: as I have always understood it, ARC certificicates really have no legal status at all (except when they are required by a specific state or local statute, such as a lifeguard who is required to have an ALS certificate. Few, if any, states require a certificate for a private citizen who comes to the aid of an accident victim as far as I know). In particular, a CPR certificate is not a "license" to perform CPR, nor is one required. The important issue is not whether the rescuer has a valid certificate, or even ever took a course, but rather that he acted within the limits of what one would expect a reasonable lay person to do. Even without specific laws to protect rescuers against lawsuits, it would be very hard to win a suit against someone who does CPR on someone who actually *needed* it. After all, a key element of a civil suit is damages. Anyone who needs CPR is clinically dead, so even with the worst rescue efforts imaginable one would be hard pressed to show that someone was damaged by the attempt. Of course, things become much less clear when someone does CPR on a person who is breathing, or a rescuer who abandons his/her efforts without being releaved by another rescuer. Similarly, in cases of severe bleeding, unless the rescuer's efforts to control the bleeding actually *increase* the bleeding (such as by submerging the wound in water), the attempt itself causes no damage, hence there is no basis for a lawsuit. None of this, of course, would apply in cases where the rescuer caused the victim's injury in the first place! @begin<Disclaimer> I am not a lawyer, nor do I even want to be. This is only my unprofessional understanding of what the law is, based on my experience as an ARC CPR instructor-trainer. @begin<sub-disclaimer> Nothing above should be taken as representing the opinion of the American Red Cross, or anyone else for that matter. @end<sub-disclaimer> @end<Disclaimer> -Matt Blaze based o
medley@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU (02/03/86)
Just a quick word - my ex-husband was involved in cpr-type rescues twice, and in both cases the results were a living person instead of a dead one. He never had any training at all in cpr, just had heard vague things about pounding the chest and holding the nose while blowing hard into the mouth. One was an electrocution in which the person started to breathe again after the first chest bang - the dr. said that considering the scope of the burns the guy should have died. The second was a neighbor who "dropped dead" whie mowing his lawn. Two people got there instantly and gave him cpr until the recue squad arrived and eventually got his heart beating again. Nobody sued him, and he had no training. Moral: even if you don't know aything, most people would probably prefer a chance at life, and you should try to give it to them.
wcs@ho95e.UUCP (x0705) (02/05/86)
In article <152@rocky2.UUCP> matt@rocky2.UUCP (Matt Blaze) writes: >Just to add one additional comment: as I have always understood it, >ARC certificicates really have no legal status at all (except when However, it does protect the Red Cross a bit - If ARC didn't have a certification process, and you botch a CPR job, the victim(or at least his lawyer) can try to sue the ARC for not teaching you right, &c. If you have an expired certification, they can get out more easily. It also has the benefit of reminding you when you need retraining. My certification expired a month or two ago, and I *know* I've forgotten a lot of the timing details, and that I ought to go back if there's ever a convenient time. > [if] the attempt itself causes no damage, hence there is no >basis for a lawsuit. Who needs a basis? This is New Jersey. -- # Bill Stewart, AT&T Bell Labs 2G-202, Holmdel NJ 1-201-949-0705 ihnp4!ho95c!wcs
wdp@uvacs.UUCP (Bill Paris) (02/08/86)
In article <31200032@uiucdcs> medley@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU writes: > >Just a quick word - my ex-husband was involved in cpr-type rescues >twice, and in both cases the results were a living person instead >of a dead one. He never had any training at all in cpr, just had >heard vague things about pounding the chest and holding the nose while ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > ......... >............ Moral: even if you don't know aything, most people would >probably prefer a chance at life, and you should try to give it to them. EEEEEEEEEEK! Your ex was very lucky on several counts: 1. The person was revived: Only very rarely does a person live after his/her heart stops beating. Many doctors (undocumented) have performed CPR on countless occasions without the victim ever being revived afterward. 2. How did your ex know the two people's hearts had stopped? Many people still wrongly believe that feeling for pulse at the wrist is an effective way to determine if one's heart is beating. You can KILL someone whose heart is beating by performing CPR on them--either by disrupting the heart/circulation or by squashing a rib into his/her liver. Even when CPR is performed correctly, the victim is likely to have internal damage and numerous broken ribs. I suppose your ex should be commended for acting in these situations--many people panic and refuse to do anything (probably this would be my first reaction). And if my heart suddenly stopped, yes I would prefer that anyone, even if they really didn't know what he/she was doing, try "CPR" ONLY IF it was evident that no one trained in CPR could be on the scene within 5 minutes. But, if I collapsed for no apparent reason, the last thing I would ever want is some rookie giving me CPR. What if I had simply fainted? The standard plea: Call the Red Cross, American Heart Association, your local hospital, community college, etc. and take a CPR course. It takes SIX hours, and they usually teach you how to save both child and adult choking victims too. And who hasn't been witness to a near tragedy where a child choked on some meat or candy... Bill Paris
shad@teldata.UUCP (02/11/86)
In article <151@uvacs.UUCP> wdp@uvacs.UUCP (Bill Paris) writes: >1. The person was revived: Only very rarely does a person live after > his/her heart stops beating. Many doctors (undocumented) have performed > CPR on countless occasions without the victim ever being revived afterward. This is true. Even with an absolutely perfect CPR technique the proceedure only provides about 30% of normal respiration and cardiac action (assuming only mouth-to-mouth and external heart compression). This is improved only slightly by an oxygen fed bag-mask. If the technique is performed less than perfectly this already low effectiveness drops greatly. > You can KILL > someone whose heart is beating by performing CPR on them--either > by disrupting the heart/circulation or by squashing a rib into his/her > liver. Even when CPR is performed correctly, the victim is likely > to have internal damage and numerous broken ribs. > > .... But, if I collapsed for no apparent reason, the last > thing I would ever want is some rookie giving me CPR. What if I had simply > fainted? I heartily second all of this. Living in the Seattle area, where emergency medic aid started, there has been an intensive program of training the public in CPR. Even with all this training there is a joke here, among the emergency medical personnel, that it is the safest place in the world to have a heart attack (MI) but the most dangerous place to faint (syncope). To Bill's list of places to receive CPR training, in the Seattle area you can also contact your closest fire station. -- Warren N. Shadwick ... ihnp4!uw-beaver!tikal!shad
ron@brl-smoke.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (02/20/86)
> This is true. Even with an absolutely perfect CPR technique the proceedure > only provides about 30% of normal respiration and cardiac action (assuming > only mouth-to-mouth and external heart compression). This is improved only > slightly by an oxygen fed bag-mask. If the technique is performed less > than perfectly this already low effectiveness drops greatly. Actually mechanical CPR (i.e. Thumper) greatly improves this. -Ron