rcgood@watnot.UUCP (Robert Good) (11/06/86)
I' m not one to generally complain, but there is something that has been disturbing me more and more lately. Canadian breweries seem to be switching more and more to the tall neck and twist off format for their beer bottles. I understand that some people prefer this kind of beer bottle, which is fine by me, but I also know that there is still a few people out there for whom the 'stubby' beer bottle symbolizes a part of Canadian culture (maybe a small part, be still a part). After all how many forigen beers come in the 'stubby'? I was fairly content with the way things were, until, to my dismay, I discovered that my favorite beer 'Crystal' (which many people haven't heard of, it's brewed by Labbatt's), no longer came in the old 'stubby', but was only available in the 'new' bottles. Well I prefer the 'old' bottle, and was curious to find out how many other people out there felt the same way. Maybe if there's enough people who want the 'stubies' back, some of the breweries will bottle a few brands in them. Rob Good (rcgood@watnot.NETNORTH) qnx...
brkirby@watdragon.UUCP (Bruce Kirby) (11/06/86)
Rather than being merely a trend, it has been an almost complete change.
Crystal is close to the last beer to switch to the tall bottles. In some
parts of the country (i.e. The Maritimes) there are NO stubbies on the
market.
It's a sad occasion...
Bruce Kirby
-----------------------
If you think the United States has stood still, who built the largest
shopping center in the world?
-Richard M. Nixon
-----------------------
CSNET: brkirby@waterloo.csnet
UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra}!watmath!watdragon!brkirbyoroth@utcs.UUCP (11/06/86)
There is another problem with the disappearance of the stubbies. That is the switch from a standard bottle to the situation where every brewery, and even brands within brewries have different bottles. I suppose having to sort the bottles provides employment, but it doesn't help keep the price down, or do anything for the taste of the beer. You used to be able to buy 3 or 4 brands and take the empties back as you filled the cases. Now you have to finish the individual brands and then stand in line at the bottle return while the guy sorts bottles. The stubbies may have been ugly to some (They were also easier to clean.) and due for replacement, but they should have been replaced by a new standard bottle. The current situation only harms the recycling effort. I would rather see the breweries spend more on the product and less on the packaging. Maybe that's why I make my own. :-) .
veerman@winston.UUCP (11/06/86)
In article <12157@watnot.UUCP> rcgood@watnot.UUCP (Robert Good) writes: >I' m not one to generally complain, but there is something that has been >disturbing me more and more lately. Canadian breweries seem to be switching >more and more to the tall neck and twist off format for their beer bottles. > >Rob Good (rcgood@watnot.NETNORTH) The whole beer marketing scheme in Canada is due for a BIG shakedown. The breweries have been spending all kinds of money on fancy bottles, foreign labels, promotion, etc. all to improve their market share. The net result is that the big three chemical companies (Labbats, Molsons, Carling O') have not changed their market share much, but beer is more expensive, and the big 3 are loosing money. It's ridiculous. Most pubs in BC now have Miller or some such piss on tap, and the beer is brewed here in BC anyways, they just pay the Yanks for the privelege of calling the beer 'Millers'. It doesn't taste like US Millers, it tastes just like any other Canadian beer (Which is OK because there is nothing so great about the taste about US Millers anyways). Bottles? Well, MY favorite beer, Extra Old Stock (Carling O') used to cost the same as all other beers, but then they decided to improve its 'image' by putting it in a 'long neck'. Result? Now it costs more, and I buy a different type. Which brings me to the observation that part of the problem lies with us, the beer consumers. How many of you have noticed the GQ types in bars that drink imported beers in bars to show how sophisticated they are (Ooooh, look at THAT guy, he drinks IMPORT beer!...) ? The clues for spotting this type are many, including holding the bottle with the label facing outwards, etc. (NEVER drink imported beer from a glass, it defeats the purpose...). Well, the beer marketing types think we are ALL like that, that is why we now have Fosters, Millers, Budweiser, etc. brewed in Canada. The only trouble is that if everyone drinks these beers, it defeats the original purpose. So now there are fewer Canadian beers on the shelves (Goodbye, cultural identity...), more 'import' labels, and they all taste the same (more or less) anyways. The biggest joke of it all is: On a trip to Boston a few years ago on business, I spent a Friday afternoon after work in a downtown bar where all the young business types (read yuppies) congregated for the after-work drinks. They were showing their good taste and 'class' by drinking (You guessed it!) Molsons Export in a green Heineken bottle, with the label facing outwards... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maarten Veerman "The only thing we know with New Media Technologies Ltd. absolute certainty is that Burnaby, British Columbia nothing is certain." @ ubc-vision!winston!veerman (604) 291 - 7111 Disclaimer: I never posted that, it was my..ah..my answering machine, yeah...
scott@utcs.UUCP (11/06/86)
I have to agree with Rob that Stubbies is where is should be at. I have
always been a fan of stubbies and my favourate beer (Alexander Keith's
India Pale Ale) has always been brewed in them. At least thats what I
thought until I went home last Christmas and learned that if all your
stubbies were not into the liquor commission by December 31, 1985 that
you could not get your deposit back on them and yes, Keith's had gone
to tall neck.
While we are on the topic of useless properties of the Canadian beer
industry, I'd like to know why it is that we in Ontario are deprived of
Maritime beer (such as Keith's which everyone at home in Nova Scotia
drinks) which is much better tasting than the garbage that they brew in
Ontario. Just about everyone in the world can drink Moosehead except us.
People in the States and in England tell me what good beer we have and
I can't even drink it without going home and bringing back a case or two.
BTW, is it legal to bring beer across provincial borders by putting it
on a bus as freight?
There is something vitally wrong with the Canadian alcohol industry and
particularly Ontario (where else do you have to go to separate stores to
get wine and beer?). Something should be done.
scott
--
Scott J. M. Campbell
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bitnet: scott@utoronto.bitnet
scott@utcs.utoronto.bitnet
UUCP: scott@utcs.uucp
{utzoo, utcsri, mnetor, cbosgd, ihnp4}!utcs!scott
Bell: (416) 599-5527
ICBM: You can guess for that one...
May you be the first victim of retroactive birth control...credmond@watmath.UUCP (Chris Redmond) (11/07/86)
In article <247@winston.UUCP> veerman@winston.UUCP (Maarten Veerman) writes: > >The biggest joke of it all is: On a trip to Boston a few years ago on >business, I spent a Friday afternoon after work in a downtown bar where all >the young business types (read yuppies) congregated for the after-work >drinks. They were showing their good taste and 'class' by drinking (You >guessed it!) Molsons Export in a green Heineken bottle, with the label >facing outwards... >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, they don't know what the stuff is. American bars and bartenders will offer you "Molsons", and if you ask Molsons *what*, they look at you funny. Never could figure out whether I would be getting Ex, Canadian, Diamond or what. Would you like some Kelloggs for breakfast?
ljw@utcsri.UUCP (Larry Williams) (11/07/86)
I read a while ago that Molson and one of the Maritime breweries (I think it was Moosehead) had signed an agreement whereby the Maritime brewery's brands would become available in Ontario (and and rest of Canada shortly thereafter). This probably means that Molsons will be brewing it in Ontario under licence (like Coors, etc. are) so they might change the recipe as they have done with most other brewed under licence products. If anyone has more info on this I'd like to hear about it. Larry.
cdshaw@alberta.UUCP (11/07/86)
In article <1986Nov6.113608.10465@utcs.uucp> oroth@utcs.UUCP (John Roth) writes: > The stubbies may have been ugly to some (They were also easier to >clean.) and due for replacement, but they should have been replaced by a >new standard bottle. The current situation only harms the recycling effort. >I would rather see the breweries spend more on the product and less on the >packaging. Maybe that's why I make my own. :-) Actually, this brings up an interesting point. Before I moved, a friend & I made beer, and the non-twist-off tall bottles have a significant advantage: They are much easier to cap than the stubby. In fact, we had a stubby blow up on us when we couldn't quite get the angle right with our mechanical capper. So I guess stubbies are not quite ALL they're cracked up to be. (har de har har) On the other hand, some bottles are so tall (particularly the Amstel bottles, and of course Brick) that it's very hard to put the cases of empties under lounge furniture like couches, benches, etc.... Of course, all this pales in comparison to the silliness of the non-availability of the 24-bottle-case in Alberta. Surely a modern tragedy if there ever was one. Just another Ontario boy dicing with death in the West.... Chris Shaw cdshaw@alberta University of Alberta CatchPhrase: Bogus as HELL !
chapman@fornax.uucp (11/07/86)
> > While we are on the topic of useless properties of the Canadian beer > industry, I'd like to know why it is that we in Ontario are deprived of > Maritime beer (such as Keith's which everyone at home in Nova Scotia > drinks) which is much better tasting than the garbage that they brew in > Ontario. Just about everyone in the world can drink Moosehead except us. > People in the States and in England tell me what good beer we have and > I can't even drink it without going home and bringing back a case or two. > BTW, is it legal to bring beer across provincial borders by putting it > on a bus as freight? I think the reason you can't get the beer you want is a matter of procincial regulation. The rule is that the only canadian made beer you can buy in province X is beer that is made in province X. I would suspect the companies and/or unions are responsible for this one. I also think this is fairly recent. I used to drink Molson's Ex here in BC and then went to live in Ontario for a while - when I finally returned you could no longer get it in BC. I agree with peoples comments about `imported' beer made in canada. It does taste like canadian beer; and because you can buy `domestic- imported' Heiniken (Toby, etc.) you can no longer get the real stuff (I didn't drink imports too often but it made a nice change once in a while). I find the stubby much easier to handle for home brew as well, both in cleaning and capping. Twenty cases of them also take a lot less room than the current bottles (you can still get stubbies if you know people who drink cider,at least in bc). *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
majka@ubc-vision.UUCP (11/07/86)
Chris Shaw says:
> Can you say "brewers monopoly"?
B-R-E-W-E-R-S M-O-N-O-P-O-L-Y. Yup. I can say it. And it cheeses me off
too! I know it doesn't do any good to flame in the news about beer. We
had a "Save the Stubbies" debate in the news a couple of years back (Can't
recall exactly when), and look where we are now! Complete chaos! However,
knowing that it is all futile effort hasn't ever stopped me before, so I'll
flame anyway.
A case :-) in point: Foster's Lager. I don't really care if Maarten
Veerman thinks I am a beer snob. I'm not. I just like to try lots of brews
from lots of breweries. Occasionally I get a beer that I enjoy. Enjoyment
in this case is measured as a tradeoff between cost and taste. I enjoy some
expensive imports because they taste good. I enjoy some more-average
tasting beers because they are cheap and I can drink more %-). Imported
Foster's was closer to the later. It was a good beer for a modest price.
As soon as it had been available in BC for a few months, however, Peter
Molson smelled a profit and bought the marketing rights. So now all we get
is more Molson's: They installed a new spigot at a different level of the
Vat. Now we will never get a chance at the real stuff that no self -
respecting Australian would leave home without. Our loss.
Another one was Guinness Stout. Not that we ever got the real stuff there
for very long either. However, the domestic imitation wasn't awful, so I
would occasionally have a jar. Then what happens? It gets taken off the
BC shelves so that we could have a domestic imitation of "Coors" or "Miller
Lite" [sic] or some other such gnat piss. Yuck!
At least it isn't all Molsbatling and American beer yet. BC has a number of
independents that can stand on their own. Granville Island Lager is
delightfully un-chemically-treated. They also make a Bock periodically
which stands up well with any imported Bock. A few of the neighbourhood
pubs are now brewing their own. You may have heard of the Troller, at
Horseshoe Bay, just north of Vancouver. Their "Bay Ale" and "Royal Ale" can
both be good. They have some problems with quality control, and will serve
them while they are ages too young, but have a try if you are there. I
Understand that some Victoria pubs are serving their own too. Does anyone
have more information on house brews in Victoria or anywhere else?
BTW - Thanks, Scott Campbell, for reminding me of India Pale. It was a good
one. Unfortunately I left the Maritimes before you could even get it there.
Had to go to Newfoundland to get it. Did you ever try "Blue Star", also
from Newfoundland? Does it even still exist?
Time to go have one. These flames have made me thirsty.
---
Marc Majkarcgood@watnot.UUCP (Rob Good) (11/07/86)
In article <12157@watnot.UUCP> rcgood@watnot.UUCP (Robert Good) writes: > >Maybe if there's enough people who want the 'stubies' back, some of the >breweries will bottle a few brands in them. > From the mail I've been getting, it seems that I'm not the only one upset buy the demise of the stubby. Maybe if there is enough of us stubby-lovers out there, and we complain about it enough, we might just get the stubby beer bottle back again. Rob Good (rcgood@watnot.UUCP) qnx...
dave@sq.uucp (11/07/86)
In article <12157@watnot.UUCP> rcgood@watnot.UUCP (Robert Good) writes: >I was fairly content with the way things were, until, to my dismay, I >discovered that my favorite beer 'Crystal' (which many people haven't >heard of, it's brewed by Labbatt's), no longer came in the old 'stubby', >but was only available in the 'new' bottles. Well I prefer the 'old' >bottle, and was curious to find out how many other people out there felt >the same way. > >Maybe if there's enough people who want the 'stubies' back, some of the >breweries will bottle a few brands in them. I used to drink Crystal when I lived up in Thunder Bay. However, moving down to Toronto no establishment seemed to carry it. Luckly the beer stores did. Anyways, when the big switch to tall bottles started about a year ago I wrote a letter to Labatt's. In it, I voiced my opinion that I prefered the smaller bottles. This was both because they poured easily and it was a bit of Canadian culture. I received a form letter back saying something along the lines of "the people want the new bottles and it is more cost effective to carry only one style". Oh well Labatt's, I also noticed you finally switched Crystal to the tall ones (Also stupid new label). Export is my choice now!! Dave ----- !utzoo!sq!dave
veerman@winston.UUCP (Maarten Veerman) (11/08/86)
In article <290@ubc-vision.UUCP> majka@ubc-vision.UUCP (Marc Majka) writes: > >A case :-) in point: Foster's Lager. I don't really care if Maarten >Veerman thinks I am a beer snob. I'm not. I just like to try lots of brews >from lots of breweries. I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean that anyone who drinks import beer is a snob. Heck, I like to quaff a few Heinies now and then myself, when I can cash in on 6/49, or the VSE gains 100 points :-). The point is that the GQ type beer snob DOES exist, and it is this type of person that the marketing types in the breweries are thinking about when they sell 'Fosters' or 'Coors' or 'Budweiser' that is brewed in Canada. The taste of these "imports" is just like any other domestic brew. Like someone said, the spigot is located in a different part of the same vat. So your beer dollar doesn't go as far anymore because part of it goes to the yanks for using their labels, or to the bottle manufacturers for making nonstandard green or long-neck bottles. Same beer, same taste. More $$. BTW anyone who has been to Oz will tell you that Fosters doesn't hold a candle to Swan Lager (from W.A.) or even Tooheys (from N.S.W.). And Aussie beer (unlike ours) is very pure, just like the German stuff. No chemicals. Food for thought: All Canadian beer contains a small amount of fromaldehide in order to increase its shelf life. This is partly the government's fault, because they refuse to refrigerate beer in their 'outlets', and they demand a certain shelf life from the breweries. American beer also contains this wonderful substance, but they can print 'No Preservatives' on their labels because fromaldehide is not classified as a preservative in the USA. (All this according to a friend of mine who is a sales rep for Carling O'). This is why great beers like Granville Island Lager are available only cold directly from the brewer (cold beer does not need preservative), or from the government liquor 'outlets' with a 'best before: xx/xx/xx' stamp. Any votes out there for a law calling for contents to be printed on the label, just like most other foods? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maarten Veerman "The only thing we know with New Media Technologies Ltd. absolute certainty is that Burnaby, British Columbia nothing is certain." @ ubc-vision!winston!veerman (604) 291 - 7111 Disclaimer: I never posted that, it was my..ah..my answering machine, yeah...
scott@utcs.UUCP (11/08/86)
In article <3602@utcsri.UUCP> ljw@utcsri.UUCP (Larry Williams) writes: > >I read a while ago that Molson and one of the Maritime breweries >(I think it was Moosehead) had signed an agreement whereby >the Maritime brewery's brands would become available in Ontario (and >and rest of Canada shortly thereafter). This probably means that >Molsons will be brewing it in Ontario under licence (like >Coors, etc. are) so they might change the recipe as they have >done with most other brewed under licence products. > >If anyone has more info on this I'd like to hear about it. > >Larry. Thats what Labatts did with Schooner. The Schooner that you get in Nova Scotia is brewed by Olands Breweries (owned by you guessed it Labatts) and it is much better than whatever it is in the bottles here.... (Of course it could be this Ontario water which does leave something to be desired... :-) scott -- ...{utzoo, decvax, ihnp4, cbosgd, utcsri, mnetor}!utcs!scott scott%utcs.toronto.edu@csnet-relay.arpa scott@utoronto.bitnet scott@utcs.utoronto.bitnet Disclaimer: The above is not actually the opinion of anyone at all but especially not the administration or staff of this institution.
credmond@watmath.UUCP (Chris Redmond) (11/10/86)
In article <1986Nov7.121834.18561@sq.uucp> dave@sq.UUCP (David R. Seaman) writes: > Anyways, when the big switch to tall bottles started about a year >ago I wrote a letter to Labatt's. In it, I voiced my opinion that I >prefered the smaller bottles. This was both because they poured easily >and it was a bit of Canadian culture. I received a form letter back >saying something along the lines of "the people want the new bottles >and it is more cost effective to carry only one style". You're lucky. I wrote to Labatt's and never got an answer at all.
wjjordan@watrose.UUCP (W. Jim Jordan) (11/11/86)
The American manufacturers of beer refrigerators (the ones in pubs) thought we were crazy to un-standardise our bottles. They thought the stubby was the best thing going since they didn't have to worry about different-sized bottles. The demise of the stubby has also taken away one of the great ice-cream- money-making pastimes of kids in Northwestern Ontario: bottle-scavenging. Kids now have to collect a bunch of each kind of bottle before they can be taken to the Brewers' Retail for reimbursement. wjj -- "Syncopation is staggering from bar to bar." W. Jim Jordan CANADA POST: 365 Hazel St., Waterloo, Ont., N2L 3P3 USENET: ...watmath!watrose!wjjordan
lyndon@ncc.UUCP (Lyndon Nerenberg) (11/15/86)
In article <248@winston.UUCP>, veerman@winston.UUCP (Maarten Veerman) writes: > In article <290@ubc-vision.UUCP> majka@ubc-vision.UUCP (Marc Majka) writes: > > The point is that the GQ type beer snob DOES exist, and it is this type of > person that the marketing types in the breweries are thinking about when > they sell 'Fosters' or 'Coors' or 'Budweiser' that is brewed in Canada. The funny thing is, if they were lousy beers, nobody would buy them, therefore there would not be a reason for the Canadian breweries to market them... Thank god we have alternatives to Andres wines! > nonstandard green or long-neck bottles. ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ Don't know about you, but I haven't seen a *standard* stubby in MANY months... > BTW anyone who has been to Oz will tell you that Fosters doesn't hold a > candle to Swan Lager (from W.A.) or even Tooheys (from N.S.W.). And anybody who has been to Canada will tell you Blue doesn't hold a candle to Fosters (all right, I'm a bit biased!) > Food for thought: All Canadian beer contains a small amount of fromaldehide I might be wrong, but I thought Sodium MetaBisulphite was the only "approved" preservative (?) > Any votes out there for a law calling for contents to be printed on the > label, just like most other foods? Will you be able to read the fine print after five bottles??? -- Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM) Systems Group - A Div. of Nexus Computing Corp. UUCP: {ihnp4,ubc-vision,watmath}!alberta!ncc!lyndon BITNET: USERCHNL@UALTAMTS
lyndon@ncc.UUCP (Lyndon Nerenberg) (11/15/86)
In article <1986Nov6.132544.12556@utcs.uucp>, scott@utcs.uucp writes: > While we are on the topic of useless properties of the Canadian beer > industry, I'd like to know why it is that we in Ontario are deprived of > Maritime beer which is much better tasting than the garbage that they brew in > Ontario. Just about everyone in the world can drink Moosehead except us. Pity us poor saps in Alberta! Importing Moosehead gets you LIFE! > BTW, is it legal to bring beer across provincial borders by putting it > on a bus as freight? See above. > > There is something vitally wrong with the Canadian alcohol industry and > particularly Ontario (where else do you have to go to separate stores to > get wine and beer?). Something should be done. It is! The next provincial election in Alberta will be a fight to get beer and wine sales into corner stores! Do you get the feeling that somebody is missing something here? -- Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM) Systems Group - A Div. of Nexus Computing Corp. UUCP: {ihnp4,ubc-vision,watmath}!alberta!ncc!lyndon BITNET: USERCHNL@UALTAMTS
scott@utcs.UUCP (11/18/86)
In article <767@ncc.UUCP> lyndon@ncc.UUCP (Lyndon Nerenberg) writes: >It is! The next provincial election in Alberta will be a fight to >get beer and wine sales into corner stores! Do you get the feeling >that somebody is missing something here? >-- >Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM) Systems Group - A Div. of Nexus Computing Corp. > >UUCP: {ihnp4,ubc-vision,watmath}!alberta!ncc!lyndon BITNET: USERCHNL@UALTAMTS They are "talking" about that here too... They are also talking about raising the drinking age to 21 like in the states :-( Im not holding my breath... If they DID raise the drinking age... would they put a grandfather clause into a law like that so that those of us who have turned 19 could still drink? they didnt in the states.... scott -- ...{utzoo, decvax, ihnp4, cbosgd, utcsri, mnetor}!utcs!scott scott%utcs.toronto.edu@csnet-relay.arpa scott@utoronto.bitnet scott@utcs.utoronto.bitnet Disclaimer: The above is not actually the opinion of anyone at all but especially not the administration or staff of this institution.
alex@xios.UUCP (Alex B Laney) (11/20/86)
Unlike, it seems a lot of people around here, I don't have any
nostalgic/sentimental feeling about 'stubbies'. I always thought they
were pretty ugly. I think it reinforced some feelings about imports
being better than Canadian beer.
Eventually the breweries will have to rethink their bottles. I hope
that they do standardize on one (or very few types of) bottle. But
I think that should be a long neck. Why do most beers from around the
world come in long neck bottles? Tradition, plus surely, practicality.
... Til next brew,
--
- + - + -
Alex Laney, Xios Systems Corp, 105-1600 Carling Av, Ottawa (613)725-5411x402
utzoo -
> !dciem
allegra!ihnp4!utcsri -- > nrcaer!xios!lib!alex
ucbvax!hplabs -- /
> !seismo!hadron!netex!prcrs/
decvax --veerman@winston.UUCP (11/25/86)
In article <765@ncc.UUCP> lyndon@ncc.UUCP (Lyndon Nerenberg) writes: > >Don't know about you, but I haven't seen a *standard* stubby in MANY >months... > Well, here in BC you can still buy several brands of beer in stubbies, as well as cider. The beer is MUCH cheaper than long-neck/green bottled beer. Example: Molsons Old Style ("Pilsner" to you easterners) costs $9.00 including tax, plus deposit, per dozen. "Fancy" labels, even Canadian (Molsons) costs typically $10.60 per dozen. Same beer, $1.60 for the fancy long- neck bottles... >And anybody who has been to Canada will tell you Blue doesn't hold a >candle to Fosters (all right, I'm a bit biased!) > If you mean the REAL Fosters, I agree. If you mean the "brewed in Canada" piss, I quite disagree. They are both lousy... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maarten Veerman "The only thing we know with New Media Technologies Ltd. absolute certainty is that Burnaby, British Columbia we know nothing with absolute @ ubc-vision!winston!veerman certainty" (604) 291 - 7111 Disclaimer: I'm getting tired of this debate, too, but its nice to see some can.traffic for a change. Are can.{ai,map,politics} bogus newsgroups ?
lyndon@ncc.UUCP (11/30/86)
In article <410@winston.UUCP>, veerman@winston.UUCP (Maarten Veerman) writes: > In article <765@ncc.UUCP> lyndon@ncc.UUCP (Lyndon Nerenberg) writes: > [...] > >And anybody who has been to Canada will tell you Blue doesn't hold a > >candle to Fosters (all right, I'm a bit biased!) > If you mean the REAL Fosters, I agree. If you mean the "brewed in Canada" > piss, I quite disagree. They are both lousy... Yes I mean *REAL* Fosters (there isn't nay other kind :-) I didn't know that they were cloning it in Canada yet. Fortunately, the piss has not floated this far down the North Sask yet!!! > Disclaimer: I'm getting tired of this debate, too, but its nice to see some > can.traffic for a change. Are can.{ai,map,politics} bogus > newsgroups ? Second the motion... -- Lyndon Nerenberg (VE6BBM) Systems Group - A Div. of Nexus Computing Corp. UUCP: {ihnp4,ubc-vision,watmath}!alberta!ncc!lyndon BITNET: USERCHNL@UALTAMTS